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RE: Sir wants to know - 9/28/2006 10:43:56 AM

RedSavageSlave

Posts: 733
Joined: 9/12/2006
Status: offline

I guess my question is.. why do you need to challenge him on this? If he wants you to tone down, drop the sarcasm, and present your argument in a better way.. why are you feeling like this is a matter for contention? I would see the problem if he said "Dont have an opinion at all" but that doesnt seem to be the case..

And personally, I totally agree with what MrDiscipline said. But hey.. thats just me.

(in reply to pqwinny)

Post #: 21

RE: Sir wants to know - 9/28/2006 11:14:33 AM

Celeste43

Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
Status: offline

You've known him for seven months and he has just noticed that you get sarcastic? Or has something happened lately to stress you out so that you are responding unusually. Because if for all this time your manners bothered him but he never before mentioned it, telling you he liked you as is, I'd be upset. People claiming to like me as is, but with secret agendas to change me annoy me and I've never found this a way to base a good, strong relationship on.

If this is a stress response for you, as it can be for me, that's different. The other thing is that since I do this in response to stress, I don't always, in fact usually don't, know I'm doing it. Instead of telling me "you're not treating me with the respect due to a true dom" he just tells me that I'm losing control. He'll hold me if he thinks it will help, will cover my mouth if I'm talking too fast, ask what's wrong if he didn't know. What he doesn't do when I'm stressed is add more stress and then getting upset when I can't handle the additional load.

(in reply to Kaledorus)

Post #: 22

RE: Sir wants to know - 9/28/2006 11:46:45 AM

Argentopal

Posts: 379
Joined: 12/12/2005
From: Central Texas / Hill Country
Status: offline

Hi,

Personality wise you and your Master sound a lot like us, Master is calm and even tempered and I can get pretty emotional. My emotional side used to get very carried away when I was upset, and it was not pretty to see!

Long ago, when we were 'vanilla', my husband had a hard time with my quick and volitile temper. I was loud, I was very unladylike, and I could hold a grudge better than anyone. I loved my husband and I did not want my temper to become a wedge that could drive us apart. I also knew that my temper hurt me more than anyone else. I made a conscience effort to get better control of myself, I used meditation and other relaxation techniques and just made it a goal to be able to not loose control. It was not an overnight transformation, but I did do it, so a person can change things about their personality when it is important to them. That was my key, it became inportant to ME, not just to my husband. In the end it made me not only a better wife but also a better mother, friend, person and now a better submissive to my Master/Daddy as well as Domme to my boy.

One thing we instituted right away when we bagan our Ds journey was "free time". We set aside a specific time every few days when we were alone and we had a small ritual beginning and I was totally free to say anything, vent, complain, about anything as long as I did it with RESPECT. now we no longer have set aside free time, but I know I can tell my Master anything I need to, as long as it is done in a respectful way. If you can master yourself in this you will find that you are much more relaxed in your life in general and people will enjoy being around you more, and you will be more pleasing overall to your Master.

MsOpal aka Daddy Argent's babygirl

(in reply to Kaledorus)

Post #: 23

RE: Sir wants to know - 9/28/2006 11:55:28 AM

pqwinny

Posts: 117
Joined: 6/23/2006
Status: offline

It flares under specific circumstances. It is a stress response.

i'm actually rather proud of my overall self-awareness and knowledge and understanding of what triggers me. The problem is once triggered i'm not always able to reign myself in and sometimes he fans the flames unintentionally. Once i'm ablaze (which takes a very strong push or particularly pointed jab at a hot spot at this stage in my life) then i go into self-defense mode. Fight or flight is a natural human response and with my personal history it became a survival mechanism which i only find myself resorting to at times when i feel the most vulnerable and under attack.

Feelings and facts do not always align so i recognize that because i feel attacked i may not be being attacked but that's logic and logic is not at work in me at these times. i believe that what i need in these moments is firm guidance and direction not criticism. Criticism at these moments is a flame fanner.

_____________________________

I have no special talent. I am only passionately curious.
-Albert Einstein

(in reply to Celeste43)

Post #: 24

RE: Sir wants to know - 9/28/2006 12:09:20 PM

Lashra

Posts: 4900
Joined: 2/9/2006
Status: offline

My sub is currently undergoing some training in regards to how he sometimes expresses himself to me. Coming from a family of 8 he tends to raise his voice to make his opinion "heard". I gave him one verbal warning, the second time he got to kneel in the corner for an hour naked with a ballgag in his mouth. I said if your going to act like a child then I most certainly will treat you like one. I expect to spoken to with respect and that means keeping your voice at an even level.

I do enjoy lively debate, I encourage him to think and express himself. It's just he needs to learn how to properly express it to me. So an alternative I came up with is for him to journal how he feels about certain topics and then we both read them together, discussing it afterwards. I have found this tends to set a much calmer tone for both of us.

Good luck,
~Lashra

_____________________________

“We can never judge the lives of others, because each person knows only their own pain and renunciation. It's one thing to feel that you are on the right path, but it's another to think that yours is the only path.”

(in reply to pqwinny)

Post #: 25

RE: Sir wants to know - 9/28/2006 12:12:47 PM

softpjOS

Posts: 398
Joined: 6/7/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: pqwinny

Our personality types are quite different outside of the obvious D/s difference. He tends to be even paced in His emotional reactions and responses and i tend to be the opposite; what i feel, i feel deeply and express as such. In and of itself, this is not a problem. The problem occurs when we have found ourselves in conversations where our differing viewpoints result in the expression of my point of view being inappropriate according to Him i.e. too loud, un-submissive tone and dripping with sarcasim (i disagree as to His definition of sarcastic). He feels that i should be able to control myself and express myself in an even toned way as He does and feels that it is wrong for me to do otherwise and incongruent with the nature of our relationship.

As one that tends to react/respond in a way that doesn't always meet Mistress's seal of approval.....

Does She simply accept this behavior? No. Does She tolerate it? Somewhat. She doesn't expect me to change my opinions/views/ feelings nor does She expect me to simply agree with everything She says. She does expect me to be respectful in tone when disagreeing with Her. This isn't an easy thing for me to maintain when certain situations occur.

We've been together for almost 5 years and to this day I still struggle with my tone during some discussions and probably always will. But if She wanted a programed robot..She certainly wouldn't be with me. Some may want that, She prefers one with spirit and backbone. That doesn't mean She accepts/allows disrespectful behavior. To this end, when She feels my responses are being disrespectful She will end the discussion and resume it when emotions are back under control. That's a hard one for me. To shut up when She says "enough". lol.

I'll offer to you a couple of ways She is working helping me remain focused on my tone/reaction to discussions/situations that bring out the worst in me.

1. If I wish to discuss something with Her that has me upset/angry I may only bring it up in person (never over the phone/internet) and prior to starting the discussion I am to strip and kneel at Her feet. Being nude and at Her feet helps keep me focused on my tone and keeping my comments more respectful. It also serves as a signal to Her that the discussion I wish to have may be upsetting to Her and gives Her the chance to consider Her current state of mind and decide if She is "up to it" at that moment. She has the final decision if we discuss it then or later that day/night. Meaning if She feels that I am still too emotional/angry or She isn't ready for the discussion.. it doesn't happen right then. (again very hard for me). She will acknowledge my request and tell me when it will be discussed.

2. If during a discussion my tone becomes disrespectful She ends it with two words. "Enough girl". If I persist She simply walks away and refuses to continue. To resume the conversation see #1. LOL.

Discussions/disagreements happen. Not all of them end up with me kneeling naked at Her feet. lol.. I'm learning. Most of the time all She has to say is "is this how you properly express differing opinions girl?" Shuts me right up (most of the time). This does not mean She dismisses my feelings/views/opinions. Not at all. It simply means that She expects me to remain respectful.

Just last week a situation came up that left me very upset. I thought I was doing well controling my emotions..keeping my yap shut until I could control what came out....We were watching tv in Her bedroom. Someone came into the room to ask a question. I answered in the same way I've answered the same question many times. Yet She felt I had been disrespectful. Why? My tone. Not the words I used. She told me that if I was going to be disrespectful that perhaps I needed to be taken home. I did not recognize my tone as being disrespectful but She did..as well as the person that I had answered. I could not understand how in the blazes I was being disrespectful when I had answered the same question many many times with the exact same words. I did not "hear myself". I knew what I had said, but being upset did not realize the tone I said it in.

It all goes back to " It's not what you say...it's how you say it." Saying "with all due respect Mistress" with a sarcastic tone is NOT acceptable (as I found out the very hard way). lol

just my two cents

pj

(in reply to pqwinny)

Post #: 26

RE: Sir wants to know - 9/28/2006 1:08:50 PM

LASub4Real

Posts: 169
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline

I've read some of the rsponses your post and I must say that I'm not sure that the problem is in having a different opinion or in even expressing it. I soundsl like it's a simple question of HOW you express your opinion, and that's a totally different thing. Some have stated the idea that you can't change who you are... but I don't hink you're being asked to. To change who you are would be to change our opinions to change how you express your opinion does not touch your core.

So sarcasm... can we always use sarcasm? Can we use it to our bos at work? Can we use it on the judges who are adjudicating our parking tickets? Do we use it to people who we respect? Sarcasm is simply a form of mockery, it's used to make an opposing idea or the person who holds it to look stupid and your idea to sound obvious to anyone who is not stupid. Some Doms may be comfortable with that, and that's fine. But if your Dom is asking you to simply explain your point of view in a way that does not attempt to make his view or him out to be stupid, then I can't see that he's asking to much, do you?

LAsub

(in reply to pqwinny)

Post #: 27

RE: Sir wants to know - 9/28/2006 2:21:17 PM

Lordandmaster

Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline

Sarcasm is worse than that--it's actually a challenge. Sarcasm is a way of saying something that you wouldn't dare say explicitly, so you dress it up in sarcasm and force the other person to choose between accepting it and reacting to it. It's passive-aggressive behavior at its purest.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LASub4Real

So sarcasm... can we always use sarcasm? Can we use it to our bos at work? Can we use it on the judges who are adjudicating our parking tickets? Do we use it to people who we respect? Sarcasm is simply a form of mockery, it's used to make an opposing idea or the person who holds it to look stupid and your idea to sound obvious to anyone who is not stupid. Some Doms may be comfortable with that, and that's fine. But if your Dom is asking you to simply explain your point of view in a way that does not attempt to make his view or him out to be stupid, then I can't see that he's asking to much, do you?

(in reply to LASub4Real)

Post #: 28

RE: Sir wants to know - 9/28/2006 4:32:07 PM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster
Sarcasm is worse than that--it's actually a challenge. Sarcasm is a way of saying something that you wouldn't dare say explicitly, so you dress it up in sarcasm and force the other person to choose between accepting it and reacting to it. It's passive-aggressive behavior at its purest.

Sarcasm really is an art form as well and for me it depends on the timing and the intent.

While I enjoy sarcasm as a form of intimacy in relationships by teasing eachother and being snarky for FUN, it really doesn't have much of a place if you're trying to make a clear point in a debate or get serious thoughts across.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 29

RE: Sir wants to know - 9/28/2006 4:35:54 PM

MASTERRocker

Posts: 277
Joined: 9/19/2006
From: Kitchener-Waterloo, ON
Status: offline

so... on here..... 'it really doesn't have much of a place if you're trying to make a clear point in a debate or get serious thoughts across. ' ....... this ACTUALLY Happens?!?!?

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 30

RE: Sir wants to know - 9/28/2006 4:56:10 PM

Mavis

Posts: 828
Joined: 2/8/2004
Status: offline

oooh, i have this problem a lot!   i get animated when i get excited, and i interrupt. Our family always raises voice a bit to be heard over each other, it's a pattern that has never been discouraged by Hubby/Dom, His family is the same way.  Master isn't used to such lively discussions in the home, so it has been a learning experience for Him as well. Knowing how we speak around here made it much eaiser for Him to understand, if not accept, that i do this more out of habit than any lack of respect.

During this last visit, i must have heard these lines umpteen times:
"Let Me know when you're finished trying to drown me out. I'll continue then."
"No, I think I'll be done now, since you didn't want to hear it."
"nice, but I think I could have heard it the same at a lower decible."
"Oh? is MY turn over again? I thought you just HAD your turn."
(Yes, He uses sarcasm on me a lot! lol)

This wasn't over debates or conflicts, it was things like exclaiming agreements! Like "Yes, exactly!"  while He told a story or something. Usually, the more i am enjoying a topic, the more out of phase i get with my manners. (During an actual debate or conflict, i get very low even tones, which tends to translate to my personal slide into sarcasm. Which translates quickly into punishment over mere correction.)

my point isn't that it's tolerated, it's clearly not acceptable, but He is working on making ways for ME to spot myself doing it, and i'm getting better at catching it before He has to. There are clear consequences though, if i keep messing up the convos with interruptions, i WILL be subjected to several hours running of topics i cannot stand.   Academy award nominees for movies over the last 25 years is a favorite way to torture me. Or quoting scenes from Alien, Predator, other sucky stuff i wouldn't want to watch, let alone sit and listen to in my living room! Making the point that i will NOt control the conversation.
::: sniffles :::

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 31

RE: Sir wants to know - 9/28/2006 5:53:50 PM

amayos

Posts: 1553
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: New England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: pqwinny

The problem occurs when we have found ourselves in conversations where our differing viewpoints result in the expression of my point of view being inappropriate according to Him i.e. too loud, un-submissive tone and dripping with sarcasim (i disagree as to His definition of sarcastic). He feels that i should be able to control myself and express myself in an even toned way as He does and feels that it is wrong for me to do otherwise and incongruent with the nature of our relationship.

i'm posting this for one reason only. He asked me to check on Collar Me and see if anyone would tolerate or accept such behavior in a sub.

I certainly would not tolerate such behavior, and never do.

While the site from which this article derives is of a particular mindset, I felt the author did well to explain the virtues of seeing a girl's speech and mannerisms as constant reflections of her Master and his teachings. There is an area in the article which covers sarcasm specifically.

http://humbledfemales.com/tamingthetongue.html

(in reply to pqwinny)

Post #: 32

RE: Sir wants to know - 9/28/2006 6:05:25 PM

Mavis

Posts: 828
Joined: 2/8/2004
Status: offline

:: side note :: Amayos, thank You! :: off to read ::

Okies, that was quick. That little vignette didn't really say much beyond what W/we already know, sarcasm is bad, and it's not the preferred way for a sub or slave to make a point.

i'm going to take this to a new thread, because much of what is mentioned here could use a fuller airing, at least for me. :) Thank You for the link!

< Message edited by Mavis -- 9/28/2006 6:15:55 PM >

(in reply to amayos)

Post #: 33

RE: Sir wants to know - 9/28/2006 9:14:02 PM

marieToo

Posts: 3595
Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Jersey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: pqwinny

A little background first. Sir and i are in a monogamous relationship for about 5 months real time and 2 months email and phone prior to that. We spend a lot of time together and the general nature of the relationship is D/s.

Our personality types are quite different outside of the obvious D/s difference. He tends to be even paced in His emotional reactions and responses and i tend to be the opposite; what i feel, i feel deeply and express as such. In and of itself, this is not a problem. The problem occurs when we have found ourselves in conversations where our differing viewpoints result in the expression of my point of view being inappropriate according to Him i.e. too loud, un-submissive tone and dripping with sarcasim (i disagree as to His definition of sarcastic). He feels that i should be able to control myself and express myself in an even toned way as He does and feels that it is wrong for me to do otherwise and incongruent with the nature of our relationship.

i'm posting this for one reason only. He asked me to check on Collar Me and see if anyone would tolerate or accept such behavior in a sub.

i'll be happy to add more info if requested for clarity but i don't want to go on and on so i'll stop here and kindly request the input of other Doms and Masters.

Sarcasm is a gift, it can be a useful tool. There's nothing better than having it in your arsenal, However, theres a time and a place for it, and if youre genuinely trying to get a point across to another person, being a wise ass is only going to serve to piss them off and most often leave them speechless and frustrated. BUT...sarcasm can also be a venom for those types of discussions with people who get insulting and you just know you are not going to come out with a productive result, so you slice em up on your way out. This of course has nothing do to with the whole Ds thing. If your dominant doesnt appreciate this during a serious topic, than by all means, just dont use it, especially because it's not going effect positive change in getting him to see your viewpoint. Sarcasm is like any other sinfully delicious thing....you have to use better descretion to know when how and on whom you break it out. It makes for some fun humor as well and I think once you know your dominant well enough you may come to sense when you can get away with a little sarcastic humor and when you cant.

< Message edited by marieToo -- 9/28/2006 9:17:17 PM >

_____________________________

marie.

I give good agita.

(in reply to pqwinny)

Post #: 34

RE: Sir wants to know - 9/28/2006 11:07:29 PM

Iskander

Posts: 264
Joined: 9/26/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
Sarcasm really is an art form as well and for me it depends on the timing and the intent.

While I enjoy sarcasm as a form of intimacy in relationships by teasing eachother and being snarky for FUN, it really doesn't have much of a place if you're trying to make a clear point in a debate or get serious thoughts across.

Ultimately sarcasm is a form of humour (lowest form of wit my friend calls it) and indeed, as with all humour, timing is that which adds to or kills it...
Being the lowest form of wit, don't you think it's perfectly suited to subs and slaves and beneath Dominants?

Iskander...

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 35

RE: Sir wants to know - 9/29/2006 12:02:13 AM

CrappyDom

Posts: 1883
Joined: 4/11/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline

You are SO right, sarcasm is beneath a real dom!

(in reply to Iskander)

Post #: 36

RE: Sir wants to know - 9/29/2006 1:33:35 AM

BitaTruble

Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline

quote:

The problem occurs when we have found ourselves in conversations where our differing viewpoints result in the expression of my point of view being inappropriate according to Him

Sorry, what's the problem?

quote:

He feels that i should be able to control myself and express myself in an even toned way as He does and feels that it is wrong for me to do otherwise and incongruent with the nature of our relationship.

OK, uh huh .. go on.

quote:

i'm posting this for one reason only. He asked me to check on Collar Me and see if anyone would tolerate or accept such behavior in a sub.

Oh, oh. OK. Got ya.

No, never. There is a reason we own 14 different items which can be used to close a mouth though the only one which is ever 'needed' are those two little words said by him to me ...

"Be quiet."

Celeste

emphasis and bold added

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to pqwinny)

Post #: 37

RE: Sir wants to know - 9/29/2006 4:40:04 AM

Elorin

Posts: 970
Joined: 8/22/2004
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline

Sir and I fight. I mean FIGHT. I mean loud, screaming, I throw things, break things, we talk over one another, vicious comments and name calling FIGHT. Why? Because I get worked up and don't recognize it, and he got tired of being the adult and letting me abuse him verbally.

Sometimes I'm out of control. Sometimes, medically, I can NOT be in control. And those times, we generally out and out rip roaring fight and scream and hang up the phone on one another. Other times, he can point out that I've interrupted him, or that I'm raising my voice, or say we need a break, and we can do that and come back to the discussion calmly.

We have agreed that the best way to have a disagreement is naked in one another's arms (it works! and we degrade into namecalling and screaming MUCH less often when we do this!), we have agreed that there is no place for sarcasm in disagreements, and we have agreed that when we interrupt one another, we should point it out so we can continue and the other comment can come later.

These are all great ideas but when I am not in control of myself they help not in the slightest.

Does Sir tolerate it? Yes. He accepts who I am and that I cannot always control myself, though I try and have been getting marginally better over the 3 years we've been together. Does he like it? Hell no. Does he accept it? Yes, along with the medical diagnosis, daily medications, and regular appointments I keep that he encourages me not to miss.

I always feel like crap as a submissive after one of those fights and losses of control, but he's never threatened to leave me over one of them, has never said "this behavior is inexcusable in a sub" or anything like that. He wants me (thank GOD!!!!) and while he continues to help me create better behaviors and choices and let me know he doesn't ~like~ the behaviors (guidance, control, dominance!) he has decided having me matters more than those things and he won't ditch me because of them.

Feel free to e-mail if you want to discuss this!

~Ms. Elorin
[email protected]

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 38

RE: Sir wants to know - 9/29/2006 5:45:35 AM

MsKatHouston

Posts: 1909
Joined: 6/7/2006
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline

I have no problem with a submissive who has an opinion and who voices it. I do not want a mindless person around me and I value the opinion of people who are in a relationship with me. But, I do not raise my voice, shout, get angry or out of control. I consider that being in control of my emotions and having an adult conversation. Regarding sarcasm, I use it sometimes as does my sub when it is appropriate. In other words, when we are joking around and having a casual conversation and it is light hearted. It does not occur during a serious discussion. I expect my submissive to show me, at the minimum, the same respect I afford him or her.

Shouting, sarcasm and generally not having control of his own emotions is not something I would tolerate for long. It is something I would make abundantly clear was unacceptable and would work to ensure more control in this area was exhibited. This will not only help the relationship but will also spill over into every day life. You can get people to listen to you a lot better and put more validity in your words if you are calm and expressive as opposed to angry and out of control.

_____________________________

-Kat

~If you can't be a good example, you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning~

(in reply to pqwinny)

Post #: 39

RE: Sir wants to know - 9/29/2006 11:06:47 AM

GoddessDustyGold

Posts: 2822
Joined: 4/11/2004
From: Arizona
Status: offline

I have been through this, and I am sure I will go through it again. It is wearing at best. However, if good things are accomplished and progress is made with regard to how a slave expresses himself/herself, then it is worth the effort. On the other hand, if the slave expresses a disinterest in working on this, or, worse yet, is blind to his/her own tone and attitude, I would have to consider that out and out disobedience and an issue that may be impossible to resolve.
I do agree with LaM that saracasm is the ultimate in passive-aggressive behavior. And I agree with Discipline that I cannot tolerate it. I am willing to work on it, but I cannot accept it as the norm of behavior that is and will continue to be. It concerns Me a great deal when I am simply exerting My natural Dominance as expected in the M/s relationship, and it is taken as an attack. It is not meant to be such, and I always step back to try to see if I expressed My own self improperly. I find it hard to spend much time with one who has a need to constantly be on the defensive. I do not want a power struggle. I seek a total power exchange. Part of that is a trust that will strip away false pride with a need to defend, and an acceptance that the Dominant guides in a manner that is beneficial to the slave, not only within the confines of the relationship, but in everyday situations. It is rare that anyone can be with their Dominant, and not interact with others, lifestyle or vanilla.
And to the OP: I also read your follow up thread with the additional information. My opinion on this general topic does not change, and what you described as a particular situation in the follow up does not apply. That situation then becomes a matter of safety and whether or not this is or will be a habit with your Dominant, or was an exception that can be worked out with mutual respect.

_____________________________

Dusty
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety
B Franklin
Don't blame Me ~ I didn't vote for either of them
The Hidden Kingdom

(in reply to pqwinny)

Post #: 40

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