RE: Punishment is Deceptive

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sapphirepleasure -> RE: Punishment is Deceptive (9/30/2006 12:52:54 PM)
CD, I think that your approach is wise--taking into consideration the personality and needs of the submissive. I think that's why the Dom I was dealing with tried to use alternative forms of punishment (because he knew of my past history of abuse and was guiding me to be able to enjoy taking pain for him) but his firm, fair and painful handling of the situation when I had crossed a huge line taught me so many lessons for which I'll always be grateful. sp

champagnewishes -> RE: Punishment is Deceptive (9/30/2006 12:58:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ScooterTrash I think a hard look and change in tone can be as productive as anything. Couldn't agree more. A look of displeasure has more impact than anything physical could begin to cover.

kandyy -> RE: Punishment is Deceptive (9/30/2006 2:28:59 PM)
thou I do, tend to be sassy at times.. a good Master has the punishment fit the crime.. so to speak... This is not just the lifestyle, but in everyday living everything has its consequences. Floggings, spankings, ingnoring one, that is easy.. I prefer someone with a creative mind to punish me.. (that is if I need it). Ty CD and everyone for the intresting veiws.. and comments.. sorry I am new here, yet I am definatly not "vanilla".

catize -> RE: Punishment is Deceptive (9/30/2006 3:00:39 PM)
quote: I appreciate the restraint that catize showed in her disparagement, but: "I submit and obey because it fulfills me to do so, not because I live in fear of punishment." really does strike me as implictly disparaging. It also strikes me as unimaginative. There are all sorts of orientations one can have to punishment which are just not captured by the implication that anyone who builds punishment into a relationship is relying on fear to do a job which can and should be done better--for all people and in all relationships--by something else. Is it so hard to make room for a sentence like: "I am in a relationship which employs punishment because it fulfills me to do so," catize? Do you believe that some uncomplicated, black and white notion like fear vs. fulfillment can charcterize the issue? It would seem as if I have stepped on an issue that is dear to your heart. I don’t see how expressing my own point of view disparages another. You have inferred an implication that was not intended. No, I do not find it hard to accept that there are widely varied relationships that work well for those involved. quote: Among the many posts I'm grateful for here is the one which introduced the notion of atonement, which is for me a powerful notion. I'd like to read more about this in the present context. I think there is a wonderful cluster of concepts--mirroring a wonderful cluster of aspects of the human experience--which cluster can include punishment and atonement as well as alienation/reconciliation, penance--in a sense that is more aspirational then punitive, discipline, and communion. What must a submissive atone for? And if a submissive is in need of penitence for human fallibility, how does the dominant receive expiation for their sins? *quote:* If punishment doesn't fit you or your relationship, that's fine. Please don't be too quick to pounce on those different than you for what you presume are deficiencies. Depending on the road you are travelling you must choose an appropriate vehicle. Isn't this right? Maybe punishment isn't a vehicle that assists advancement on your stretch of road. That's coo. Just be careful about assuming that your stretch of road is actually ahead of all of those where punishment works, works perhaps in ways you have never experienced and don't understand. It is my philosophy that I am the one responsible for my own behaviors. My belief is that my submission needs to come from within. The efficacy of external controls is, in my opinion, self-limiting within the context of my relationship. There is a right road for me but I do not see where I inferred all others must travel the same path. quote: Of course you, catize, stopped short of imposition, but I don't think you quite stopped short of admonishment. I find the highlighted portion of your statement more than a bit ironic.

velvetears -> RE: Punishment is Deceptive (9/30/2006 3:10:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain The thread on how do you punish a sub who is not into flogging and the responses has me pondering if we are not deceiving ourselves with regards to finding punishments that the sub doesn’t want. I’m starting this thread to examine this twist. Many subs say they couldn’t be “punished” by flogging because they like it and at first I agreed with the idea, but then I considered the big picture. It has me looking at things differently. A submissive is going to like whatever is done to her because she understands she is being punished and appreciates the control. Finding things she doesn’t like is not really doing something to her she doesn’t want. She may scream or whatever, but when it is over, she finds comfort in the punishment and the structure of the D/s. She will be aroused on some level by whatever is done to her. This probably even includes temporary abandonment. It is useless to try to devise punishments she doesn’t like. It would be more honest to simply state your displeasure, then “punish” with the flogger or whatever in almost the same way as you flog for pleasure. The dynamic of her being punished is the point hitting home to her. Sure it is going to arouse her, but it is also reinforcing the control facet and possibly in a greater way because she is feeling the erotic power of the instrument that affects her best and knows she needs it. What i hear you saying is that while a sub dislikes having to be punished, she likes the fact that her dom thinks enough of her and values her enough to take the time and effort to punish her. If she values it to that extent isn't she missing the point? Shouldn't she value even more not displeasing her dom? Somehow i think if they function like you stated above, it is all a ruse. i can understand a sub feeling she is "worth the effort", or that "he won't leave me if i screw up" sort of mentality, but if that doesn't dissolve at some point, i think it will wear down the relationship to a frazzle and turn the dom into nothing more then a puppet on the string for the submissive. When she needs validation or to feel wanted or needed - do something to get punished. If what you are saying is accurate, then think about it, the best and most effective real punishment would be no punishment at all, ignoring what she did completely.

ChainedExistence -> RE: Punishment is Deceptive (9/30/2006 3:15:39 PM)
Being on the receiving end of his punishments, I think I best understand his point. Over the years, I have had my share of a variety of punishments-from laying out every toy in front of me, putting me over his lap and refusing to do anything with me, to disapproving stares, to a quiet " you disappointed me", to a hard caning. The type of punishment isn't the issue. He's certainly creative enough to dish out something to "fit the crime." Believe me, I don't enjoy ANY punishments, even if my body at times seems to indicate otherwise, (just a sideline here...I'm not the bratty sort to need them with any frequency)...but the point being made here is no matter how much I might hate the punishment in the SHORT TERM..it has the LONG TERM effect of satisfying something in me that needs and craves the strict discipline. I certainly do not seek out punishment but deep down, knowing that he won't let me get by with anything is a comfort to me. I'm a grown woman, and certainly capable of monitoring my own behavior, but as a slave, I WANT that outside correction. I know I am not speaking for every slave but this is what I understand and what makes sense for me and for us. Punishment is deceptive, because ultimately it is viewed as something positive to me, even if I can't sit for the next few days or I've cried myself to sleep for disappointing him. It all ties me to him even more.

juliaoceania -> RE: Punishment is Deceptive (9/30/2006 4:46:11 PM)
quote: Among the many posts I'm grateful for here is the one which introduced the notion of atonement, which is for me a powerful notion. I'd like to read more about this in the present context. I think there is a wonderful cluster of concepts--mirroring a wonderful cluster of aspects of the human experience--which cluster can include punishment and atonement as well as alienation/reconciliation, penance--in a sense that is more aspirational then punitive, discipline, and communion. Atonement is for the person who commited the offense more so than for the person who was wronged. In my original post on this thread I made the point that a good spanking cleared the air when I was a kid.. it set things "right" in my child's universe. When looking at punishment in that light, setting things right, clearing the air... well atonement is a good word for that concept... paying the piper so to speak. That is more for the submissive than it is for the dominant. The OP was thought provoking on the topic at hand. His question about whether discipline/punishment are for the gratification of the submissive in being "controlled" (or as my Daddy calls it, making the sandbox in which I exist..smiles)... well is that a bad thing? Just some thoughts your post crystalized for me Noah, thanks

Sinergy -> RE: Punishment is Deceptive (9/30/2006 6:03:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain It would be more honest to simply state your displeasure, then “punish” with the flogger or whatever in almost the same way as you flog for pleasure. The dynamic of her being punished is the point hitting home to her. Sure it is going to arouse her, but it is also reinforcing the control facet and possibly in a greater way because she is feeling the erotic power of the instrument that affects her best and knows she needs it. Hello A/all, While I tend to agree with this. What worries me about flogging somebody for bad behavior is the tendency for it to blur in her mind with all the times she is flogged for good behavior. It seems to me that flogging for bad behavior might be a short cut to turning her into a smart-assed and disobedient masochist. On the other hand, when I have told somebody I was with in a low voice that I was "disappointed" in their actions, it seemed to have the desired effect in getting her to stop the behavior. Just me, could be wrong, etc. Sinergy

KatyLied -> RE: Punishment is Deceptive (9/30/2006 6:13:36 PM)
Punishment is not supposed to be enjoyable. It's not something that should elicit bratty behavior (so the sub can receive "punishment"). If this is a relationship dynamic, I don't get it. Find another punishment that works.

charismagirrl -> RE: Punishment is Deceptive (9/30/2006 6:29:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: catize What must a submissive atone for? And if a submissive is in need of penitence for human fallibility, how does the dominant receive expiation for their sins? catize, First let me say that my Daddy doesn't rule out of fear either (in response to your initial post on this topic) he said he wants me to do the right thing because he wants me to please him because i am his slave and not out of fear of repercutions (surrendering to the fear of punishment vs. surrendering to him because i must internally) This was such a tough thing for me to wrap my head around at first.OMG....anyway...It doesn't make us better or worse (just clarifying for the peanut gallery) Now as for atonement....what must the sub or slave (slave in my case and that's the only one i can truly speak of) i am atoning for a mulitude of things. Some of the things were things i'd done in my life prior to meeting my Daddy, stupid choices, that made it more difficult for him to aquire me, to gain my trust and keep it and made me in gerneral a more broken piece of property once i finally came to him..... my Daddy went through hell and back to have me, and in large part it was my fault. So i feel i need to atone.

marieToo -> RE: Punishment is Deceptive (9/30/2006 7:21:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain The thread on how do you punish a sub who is not into flogging and the responses has me pondering if we are not deceiving ourselves with regards to finding punishments that the sub doesn’t want. I’m starting this thread to examine this twist. Many subs say they couldn’t be “punished” by flogging because they like it and at first I agreed with the idea, but then I considered the big picture. It has me looking at things differently. A submissive is going to like whatever is done to her because she understands she is being punished and appreciates the control. Finding things she doesn’t like is not really doing something to her she doesn’t want. She may scream or whatever, but when it is over, she finds comfort in the punishment and the structure of the D/s. She will be aroused on some level by whatever is done to her. This probably even includes temporary abandonment. It is useless to try to devise punishments she doesn’t like. It would be more honest to simply state your displeasure, then “punish” with the flogger or whatever in almost the same way as you flog for pleasure. The dynamic of her being punished is the point hitting home to her. Sure it is going to arouse her, but it is also reinforcing the control facet and possibly in a greater way because she is feeling the erotic power of the instrument that affects her best and knows she needs it. There are so many facets to this. I dont think a submissive can actually be 'conditioned' sucessfully if she 'gets off' on the punishment on some level. Whether its a sexual turn on, or whether its emotional and it makes her feel closer to her dominant afterwards, or she feels like he 'cares' enough to keep the ds dynamic on track or whatever. I mean...I think most submissives can derive something positive from a punishment, even if they dont like ...say...the specific act of having their ass whipped. What kills me the most is being left to wonder if the relationship is over or not. Im not advocating this. If I was healthy and not a fucking closet doormat, Id probably tell a guy to go fuck himself for something like this. But I dont, and I cant. I will sit on edge for days in physical pain..I mean it makes me sick. My stomach hurts, my head hurts, I cant sleep, my whole body aches with the possibility of being thrown away because I fucked up. When this shit is over with, Id jump off a fucking bridge if told to, just because Im so happy that Im still his. This is fucked up, I know. But for me, this is the only real punishment. A caning or whipping? Ok...I hate pain, but I can still draw pleasure from being at his mercy, regardless of the physical pain. That wont work for long term change, not for me anyway. Or maybe Ive just never been beaten long enough and hard enough, I dont know. But if I dig deeply enough I can find pleasure in just about any kind of pain, even emotional or fear and intimidation. The only thing I cant convert into some type of pleasure is mental anguish. Abandon me and let me teeter on the edge wondering and waiting...that'll get it done for me, like nothing else. Is that enjoyable? No way...and I do mean no way. I think if you're using punishment for a kink in your relationship, then thats another story. Maybe it can be a mild form of discipline to set up some minfuck of a punishment as Frank suggested...making her look at the cane for an hour or so anticipating it and fearing it etc.. But if you're searching for some type of consequence to actually effect change in a person's behavior, you have to check your compassion at the door and be an out and out motherfucker. ::Putting on my flame retardant armour::

Frank01 -> RE: Punishment is Deceptive (9/30/2006 7:27:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: marieToo quote: ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain The thread on how do you punish a sub who is not into flogging and the responses has me pondering if we are not deceiving ourselves with regards to finding punishments that the sub doesn’t want. I’m starting this thread to examine this twist. Many subs say they couldn’t be “punished” by flogging because they like it and at first I agreed with the idea, but then I considered the big picture. It has me looking at things differently. A submissive is going to like whatever is done to her because she understands she is being punished and appreciates the control. Finding things she doesn’t like is not really doing something to her she doesn’t want. She may scream or whatever, but when it is over, she finds comfort in the punishment and the structure of the D/s. She will be aroused on some level by whatever is done to her. This probably even includes temporary abandonment. It is useless to try to devise punishments she doesn’t like. It would be more honest to simply state your displeasure, then “punish” with the flogger or whatever in almost the same way as you flog for pleasure. The dynamic of her being punished is the point hitting home to her. Sure it is going to arouse her, but it is also reinforcing the control facet and possibly in a greater way because she is feeling the erotic power of the instrument that affects her best and knows she needs it. There are so many facets to this. I dont think a submissive can actually be 'conditioned' sucessfully if she 'gets off' on the punishment on some level. Whether its a sexual turn on, or whether its emotional and it makes her feel closer to her dominant afterwards, or she feels like he 'cares' enough to keep the ds dynamic on track or whatever. I mean...I think most submissives can derive something positive from a punishment, even if they dont like ...say...the specific act of having their ass whipped. What kills me the most is being left to wonder if the relationship is over or not. Im not advocating this. If I was healthy and not a fucking closet doormat, Id probably tell a guy to go fuck himself for something like this. But I dont, and I cant. I will sit on edge for days in physical pain..I mean it makes me sick. My stomach hurts, my head hurts, I cant sleep, my whole body aches with the possibility of being thrown away because I fucked up. When this shit is over with, Id jump off a fucking bridge if told to, just because Im so happy that Im still his. This is fucked up, I know. But for me, this is the only real punishment. A caning or whipping? Ok...I hate pain, but I can still draw pleasure from being at his mercy, regardless of the physical pain. That wont work for long term change, not for me anyway. Or maybe Ive just never been beaten long enough and hard enough, I dont know. But if I dig deeply enough I can find pleasure in just about any kind of pain, even emotional or fear and intimidation. The only thing I cant convert into some type of pleasure is mental anguish. Abandon me and let me teeter on the edge wondering and waiting...that'll get it done for me, like nothing else. Is that enjoyable? No way...and I do mean no way. I think if you're using punishment for a kink in your relationship, then thats another story. Maybe it can be a mild form of discipline to set up some minfuck of a punishment as Frank suggested...making her look at the cane for an hour or so anticipating it and fearing it etc.. But if you're searching for some type of consequence to actually effect change in a person's behavior, you have to check your compassion at the door and be an out and out motherfucker. ::Putting on my flame retardant armour:: I agree. Real change can only be done with Draconian behavior, in many cases. This is why I have always felt that to really be an owner of any sort, there has to be a very clear bondary line that a servant realizes WILL be a deal breaker. At that they immediately become worthless the instant they cross that line-no going back-ever. And that atoning for approaching it is going to make them wish they were never born. If you don't have the balls to enforce your own core principles-don't call yourself an Owner. You're just playing at it.

juliaoceania -> RE: Punishment is Deceptive (9/30/2006 7:27:16 PM)
Actually no flame from me, just a "wow" on the honesty of your post.... thanks for sharing that Marie.

marieToo -> RE: Punishment is Deceptive (9/30/2006 7:43:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania Actually no flame from me, just a "wow" on the honesty of your post.... thanks for sharing that Marie. This is group therapy, no? lolol.

marieToo -> RE: Punishment is Deceptive (9/30/2006 7:45:00 PM)
I like you. You remind me alot of someone.

Frank01 -> RE: Punishment is Deceptive (9/30/2006 8:07:49 PM)
Smiles........We do these things for intensity of a sort, no?

marieToo -> RE: Punishment is Deceptive (9/30/2006 9:13:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Frank01 Smiles........We do these things for intensity of a sort, no? Intensity? Yes, That would definately be a good word for it....

LadyHugs -> RE: Punishment is Deceptive (9/30/2006 9:57:47 PM)
Dear Ladies and Gentlemen, In my mind's eye, when there is the punishment aspects, it then fosters the atonement. It roughly can be seen, as it would be in my mind's eye; an apology. Just as Masters need to apologize to slaves at times, so do slaves apologize to their Masters. Apology can be in many forms--to include accepting punishment. Punishment is a closure on the offense. It can be hopefully seen by both as a new beginning point yet, with lessons learned. An apology opens the door for forgiveness. With forgiveness it causes it's own catharsis. With catharsis there is a flood of emotions and release. Just some thoughts. Respectfully submitted for consideration, Lady Hugs

Frank01 -> RE: Punishment is Deceptive (9/30/2006 10:32:25 PM)
And yet, how much better to atone with.........I know you as I do myself.........and when I wrong you, I wrong us both. I will remember.

MisPandora -> RE: Punishment is Deceptive (9/30/2006 11:07:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: ORIGINAL: MisPandora Part of this muckety-muck is because we so often confuse the terms DISCIPLINE with PUNISHMENT. Punishment is corrective action for an infraction or enforcement of rules. As defined: suffering, pain, or loss that serves as retribution; a penalty inflicted on an offender through judicial procedure. And while one of the dictionary definitions of discipline is punishment, many actually use discipline as one of it's alternate definitions: training that corrects, molds, or perfects the mental faculties or moral character. Teaching a lesson or taking corrective action with something other than the adverse seems a bit meaningless to me, but then again, I'm one who makes them go out and cut the switch from the forsythia bush or the apple tree themselves..... I thought the dictionary definitions would be helpful here Uh thanks, but I'd already snipped the definitions IN my post out of dictionary.com. That's why it's written, defined: XXXXXX.

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