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ORIGINAL: ScooterTrash

I think a hard look and change in tone can be as productive as anything.

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I appreciate the restraint that catize showed in her disparagement, but: "I submit and obey because it fulfills me to do so, not because I live in fear of punishment." really does strike me as implictly disparaging. It also strikes me as unimaginative. There are all sorts of orientations one can have to punishment which are just not captured by the implication that anyone who builds punishment into a relationship is relying on fear to do a job which can and should be done better--for all people and in all relationships--by something else.

Is it so hard to make room for a sentence like: "I am in a relationship which employs punishment because it fulfills me to do so," catize? Do you believe that some uncomplicated, black and white notion like fear vs. fulfillment can charcterize the issue? 

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If punishment doesn't fit you or your relationship, that's fine. Please don't be too quick to pounce on those different than you for what you presume are deficiencies. Depending on the road you are travelling you must choose an appropriate vehicle. Isn't this right? Maybe punishment isn't a vehicle that assists advancement on your stretch of road. That's coo. Just be careful about assuming that your stretch of road is actually ahead of all of those where punishment works, works perhaps in ways you have never experienced and don't understand.

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Of course you, catize, stopped short of imposition, but I don't think you quite stopped short of admonishment.

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ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain

The thread on how do you punish a sub who is not into flogging and the responses has me pondering if we are not deceiving ourselves with regards to finding punishments that the sub doesn’t want. I’m starting this thread to examine this twist. Many subs say they couldn’t be “punished” by flogging because they like it and at first I agreed with the idea, but then I considered the big picture. It has me looking at things differently.

A submissive is going to like whatever is done to her because she understands she is being punished and appreciates the control. Finding things she doesn’t like is not really doing something to her she doesn’t want. She may scream or whatever, but when it is over, she finds comfort in the punishment and the structure of the D/s. She will be aroused on some level by whatever is done to her. This probably even includes temporary abandonment. It is useless to try to devise punishments she doesn’t like.

It would be more honest to simply state your displeasure, then “punish” with the flogger or whatever in almost the same way as you flog for pleasure. The dynamic of her being punished is the point hitting home to her. Sure it is going to arouse her, but it is also reinforcing the control facet and possibly in a greater way because she is feeling the erotic power of the instrument that affects her best and knows she needs it.   

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Among the many posts I'm grateful for here is the one which introduced the notion of atonement, which is for me a powerful notion. I'd like to read more about this in the present context. I think there is a wonderful cluster of concepts--mirroring a wonderful cluster of aspects of the human experience--which cluster can include punishment and atonement as well as alienation/reconciliation, penance--in a sense that is more aspirational then punitive, discipline, and communion.

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ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain

It would be more honest to simply state your displeasure, then “punish” with the flogger or whatever in almost the same way as you flog for pleasure. The dynamic of her being punished is the point hitting home to her. Sure it is going to arouse her, but it is also reinforcing the control facet and possibly in a greater way because she is feeling the erotic power of the instrument that affects her best and knows she needs it.   

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ORIGINAL: catize

What must a submissive atone for?  And if a submissive is in need of penitence for human fallibility, how does the dominant receive expiation for their sins?

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ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain

The thread on how do you punish a sub who is not into flogging and the responses has me pondering if we are not deceiving ourselves with regards to finding punishments that the sub doesn’t want. I’m starting this thread to examine this twist. Many subs say they couldn’t be “punished” by flogging because they like it and at first I agreed with the idea, but then I considered the big picture. It has me looking at things differently.

A submissive is going to like whatever is done to her because she understands she is being punished and appreciates the control. Finding things she doesn’t like is not really doing something to her she doesn’t want. She may scream or whatever, but when it is over, she finds comfort in the punishment and the structure of the D/s. She will be aroused on some level by whatever is done to her. This probably even includes temporary abandonment. It is useless to try to devise punishments she doesn’t like.

It would be more honest to simply state your displeasure, then “punish” with the flogger or whatever in almost the same way as you flog for pleasure. The dynamic of her being punished is the point hitting home to her. Sure it is going to arouse her, but it is also reinforcing the control facet and possibly in a greater way because she is feeling the erotic power of the instrument that affects her best and knows she needs it.   

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ORIGINAL: marieToo

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ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain

The thread on how do you punish a sub who is not into flogging and the responses has me pondering if we are not deceiving ourselves with regards to finding punishments that the sub doesn’t want. I’m starting this thread to examine this twist. Many subs say they couldn’t be “punished” by flogging because they like it and at first I agreed with the idea, but then I considered the big picture. It has me looking at things differently.

A submissive is going to like whatever is done to her because she understands she is being punished and appreciates the control. Finding things she doesn’t like is not really doing something to her she doesn’t want. She may scream or whatever, but when it is over, she finds comfort in the punishment and the structure of the D/s. She will be aroused on some level by whatever is done to her. This probably even includes temporary abandonment. It is useless to try to devise punishments she doesn’t like.

It would be more honest to simply state your displeasure, then “punish” with the flogger or whatever in almost the same way as you flog for pleasure. The dynamic of her being punished is the point hitting home to her. Sure it is going to arouse her, but it is also reinforcing the control facet and possibly in a greater way because she is feeling the erotic power of the instrument that affects her best and knows she needs it.   

There are so many facets to this.  I dont think a submissive can actually be 'conditioned' sucessfully  if she 'gets off' on the punishment on some level.  Whether its a sexual turn on, or whether its emotional and it makes her feel closer to her dominant afterwards, or she feels like he 'cares' enough to keep the ds dynamic on track or whatever.  I mean...I think most submissives can derive something positive from a punishment, even if they dont like ...say...the specific act of having their ass whipped.

What kills me the most is being left to wonder if the relationship is over or not.  Im not advocating this.  If I was  healthy and not a fucking closet doormat, Id probably tell a guy to go fuck himself for something like this.  But I dont, and I cant.  I will sit on edge for days in physical pain..I mean it makes me sick.  My stomach hurts, my head hurts, I cant sleep, my whole body aches with the possibility of being thrown away because I fucked up.  When this shit is over with, Id jump off a fucking bridge if told to, just because Im so happy that Im still his.  This is fucked up, I know.  But for me, this is the only real punishment.  A caning or whipping?  Ok...I hate pain, but I can still draw pleasure from being at his mercy, regardless of the physical pain. That wont work for long term change, not for me anyway.  Or maybe Ive just never been beaten long enough and hard enough, I dont know. But if I dig deeply enough I can find pleasure in just about any kind of pain, even emotional or fear and intimidation.  The only thing I cant convert into some type of pleasure is mental anguish.  Abandon me and let me teeter on the edge wondering and waiting...that'll get it done for me, like nothing else.  Is that enjoyable?  No way...and I do mean no way.

I think if you're using punishment for a kink in your relationship, then thats another story.  Maybe it can be a mild form of discipline to set up some minfuck of a punishment as Frank suggested...making her look at the cane for an hour or so anticipating it and fearing it etc..   But if you're searching for some type of consequence to actually effect change in a person's behavior,  you have to check your compassion at the door and be an out and out motherfucker.

::Putting on my flame retardant armour::

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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Actually no flame from me, just a "wow" on the honesty of your post.... thanks for sharing that Marie.

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ORIGINAL: Frank01

Smiles........We do these things for intensity of a sort, no?

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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

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ORIGINAL: MisPandora

Part of this muckety-muck is because we so often confuse the terms

DISCIPLINE

with

PUNISHMENT.

Punishment is corrective action for an infraction or enforcement of rules.  As defined: suffering, pain, or loss that serves as retribution; a penalty inflicted on an offender through judicial procedure.

And while one of the dictionary definitions of discipline *is* punishment, many actually use discipline as one of it's alternate definitions: training that corrects, molds, or perfects the mental faculties or moral character.

Teaching a lesson or taking corrective action with something other than the adverse seems a bit meaningless to me, but then again, I'm one who makes them go out and cut the switch from the forsythia bush or the apple tree themselves.....

I thought the dictionary definitions would be helpful here