RE: US National Intelligence Estimate (Full Version)

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LadyMorgynn -> RE: US National Intelligence Estimate (10/1/2006 10:22:45 AM)

There is no solution.  Thanks to our invasion, the country and infrastructure are in shambles, terrorists have a terrific power base there, and we have no choice but to ride it out until some semblance of order can be restored.  Which is not going to happen for the simple fact that we are THERE, and however wrong we were to attack in the first place, we can't withdraw now for reasons well-stated elsewhere.



WyrdRich -> RE: US National Intelligence Estimate (10/1/2006 10:27:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

I haven't given up any "Civil Liberties."
Has anyone else in here given up their "Civil Liberties?
Where would you go to do that? Is there some paperwork I'd have to sign? A form maybe?



      Lemme check...  The freedom of expression seems to be working just fine, my voter's guide and sample ballot showed up on time, the cop who pulled me over for a questionable turn last week didn't do a warrantless cavity search (pity, she was HOT) and the friends I absolutely cannot talk politics with haven't vanished in the night.



LadyMorgynn -> RE: US National Intelligence Estimate (10/1/2006 10:31:15 AM)

Demonizing?  Listen, with absolute NO desire to in any way validate, justify, or give any support to horrific acts performed, the indisputable fact of the matter is the "dumb suburban kid" was either a trained killer, or there in support of trained killers, as part of an invading and occupying hostile foreign force. 

If the Lilliputans invaded America with overwhelming military force... would I fight to the last breath?  Damn straight.  Occupy MY COUNTRY????!!!!!!!!!  Would I torture the bastards with power tools?  Yes, and electricity and water and CBT devices and anything else I could get my hands on, including my own bare hands and if I had to rip out their throat with my teeth I'd do it.  Would I behead them on video and send it in mingled fury, glee and victory to the Lilliputans?  Depends on how righteously pissed off I was, but yep, probably I would.  I would do ANYTHING... ANYTHING it took to repel invaders in MY COUNTRY!

Why should we think the Iraqi's any less for doing what we ourselves would do in the same situation?  Unless, of course, you'd just lie down in bed with the enemy and obediently do what they told you... all for your own good, of course.  You be a good little dog and we'll give you a place in the new government we're going to put in place to run the country the way we want.  Right, you do that, Rich.  ME??? I'd fight to the bitter end using ANY means at my disposal.

Oh... and I'd also kill any of my own countrymen who cooperated with the invading enemy.  They would be traitors, you see.

quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich
   They are doing a fine job of demonizing themselves.  We "torture" with things the people on this site do for fun (and then prosecute those responsible), they torture with power tools and release video of dumb suburban kids being beheaded.    



WyrdRich -> RE: US National Intelligence Estimate (10/1/2006 10:39:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyMorgynn

There is no solution.


       Unacceptable. 

      When those bad situations I referenced earlier arise, the only people I resent more than the fool/s responsible are the ones who blame, whine and pout rather than do something constructive (bitching is fine, as long as you can do it while you work.)



WyrdRich -> RE: US National Intelligence Estimate (10/1/2006 10:46:20 AM)

       I think we must have different definitions of an "apologist" then.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyMorgynn

Demonizing?  Listen, with absolute NO desire to in any way validate, justify, or give any support to horrific acts performed, the indisputable fact of the matter is the "dumb suburban kid" was either a trained killer, or there in support of trained killers, as part of an invading and occupying hostile foreign force. 

If the Lilliputans invaded America with overwhelming military force... would I fight to the last breath?  Damn straight.  Occupy MY COUNTRY????!!!!!!!!!  Would I torture the bastards with power tools?  Yes, and electricity and water and CBT devices and anything else I could get my hands on, including my own bare hands and if I had to rip out their throat with my teeth I'd do it.  Would I behead them on video and send it in mingled fury, glee and victory to the Lilliputans?  Depends on how righteously pissed off I was, but yep, probably I would.  I would do ANYTHING... ANYTHING it took to repel invaders in MY COUNTRY!

Why should we think the Iraqi's any less for doing what we ourselves would do in the same situation?  Unless, of course, you'd just lie down in bed with the enemy and obediently do what they told you... all for your own good, of course.  You be a good little dog and we'll give you a place in the new government we're going to put in place to run the country the way we want.  Right, you do that, Rich.  ME??? I'd fight to the bitter end using ANY means at my disposal.

Oh... and I'd also kill any of my own countrymen who cooperated with the invading enemy.  They would be traitors, you see.

quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich
  They are doing a fine job of demonizing themselves.  We "torture" with things the people on this site do for fun (and then prosecute those responsible), they torture with power tools and release video of dumb suburban kids being beheaded.    




LadyMorgynn -> RE: US National Intelligence Estimate (10/1/2006 10:46:41 AM)

Let me rephrase.  There is no EASY solution, and if there is any solution at all, I don't know what it is.  To quickly review the various options immediately apparent, the first is withdrawal, which is not really an option.  To whit, it would have been better not to have invaded at all, of course.  Now that we have done so, we cannot withdraw in honor and leave the country in its current state of upheaval (for which we are directly responsible).  Of course, our government doesn't have any honor (or we wouldn't be there in the first place).  And since our government certainly would not want a popular government in place (which most certainly would be anti-American), we will only support (read: allow) a puppet government, which of course will not be popular or acceptable to the Iraqi's.  Do YOU see a solution?  I don't. 



LadyMorgynn -> RE: US National Intelligence Estimate (10/1/2006 10:47:43 AM)

We have clearly different definitions of patriotic, too.

quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich

      I think we must have different definitions of an "apologist" then.



WyrdRich -> RE: US National Intelligence Estimate (10/1/2006 10:57:26 AM)

      Hehehehe.  You FINALLY said something I can completely agree with. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyMorgynn

We have clearly different definitions of patriotic, too.

quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich

     I think we must have different definitions of an "apologist" then.




    



sissifytoserve -> RE: US National Intelligence Estimate (10/1/2006 11:02:03 AM)

Its almost as if our government wanted to CREATE more enemies to keep the GRAVY-TRAIN/Military industrial complex going.

Need that cash after all.

They definately have created more enemies than reduced them.

I'm pretty sure this was their intention all along.

Peace isn't profitable.

If you think about it...its a complete failure of T.W.A.T. (the war against terrorism)



LadyMorgynn -> RE: US National Intelligence Estimate (10/1/2006 11:02:09 AM)

Yes, that was pretty much a no-brainer, wasn't it?

quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich

     Hehehehe.  You FINALLY said something I can completely agree with. 
]
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyMorgynn

We have clearly different definitions of patriotic, too.
 
 



LadyMorgynn -> RE: US National Intelligence Estimate (10/1/2006 11:03:42 AM)

The only part of the below that I disagree with is the "almost as if"

quote:

ORIGINAL: sissifytoserve

Its almost as if our government wanted to CREATE more enemies to keep the GRAVY-TRAIN/Military industrial complex going.

Need that cash after all.

They definately have created more enemies than reduced them.

I'm pretty sure this was their intention all along.

Peace isn't profitable.

If you think about it...its a complete failure of T.W.A.T. (the war against terrorism)



NorthernGent -> RE: US National Intelligence Estimate (10/1/2006 11:05:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

I haven't given up any "Civil Liberties."
Has anyone else in here given up their "Civil Liberties?
Where would you go to do that? Is there some paperwork I'd have to sign? A form maybe?


http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/media/2003_alerts/0918.htm

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/libertywatch/story/0,1373,591545,00.html - an interesting article citing the detention of a US Green Party member stopped from attending a conference on war

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4542880.stm - phone tapping



Chaingang -> RE: US National Intelligence Estimate (10/1/2006 11:08:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyMorgynn
The only part of the below that I disagree with is the "almost as if"


Then why play their game and stick it out? We should just leave now and leave them to their own devices. If civil war is imminent then they will be too busy killing each other to bother with us for the moment.





WyrdRich -> RE: US National Intelligence Estimate (10/1/2006 11:09:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyMorgynn
Do YOU see a solution? 



      I have some background in demolitions, the solutions I see are not pretty.  Sometimes I will look at our present situation as somewhat akin to me being attacked by a little terrier...  I'd really prefer not to harm it...



LadyMorgynn -> RE: US National Intelligence Estimate (10/1/2006 11:16:38 AM)

It is not "their game" we are playing.  WE went in and destroyed the infrastructure and set the country into shambles and shattered what stability there was.  The current disastrous instability of Iraq is the direct result of our invasion.  What WE did, is a thousand times worse than anything Saddam did to the Iraqi's.  I daresay they would rather have had a thousand Saddams than a week of American rule.  But we forced it on them, and opened the door to anarchy and terror and civil war.  WE did this.  Saddam Hussein did not do this.  The Ayatollah did not do it, Al Qaeda didn't do it, nor did Osama or Sauda Arabia.  This is America's mess to clean up, more shame to our government! 

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaingang
Then why play their game and stick it out? We should just leave now and leave them to their own devices. If civil war is imminent then they will be too busy killing each other to bother with us for the moment.



LadyMorgynn -> RE: US National Intelligence Estimate (10/1/2006 11:21:13 AM)

Well, personally I oppose on many levels the mass slaughter of hundreds of thousands of people.  Too bad so many of the most vociferous have far less ethical standards.  Most of 'em probably call themselves Christians, too.  OH!  That's right, I forgot.  The Iraqi's are all Muslims, so they must be terrorists, every one of 'em hand in glove with Al Queda. Even if they're not, they deserve to die for calling God Allah.  Just nuke 'em, and get rid of the problem.  No sweat.

quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyMorgynn
Do YOU see a solution? 



     I have some background in demolitions, the solutions I see are not pretty.  Sometimes I will look at our present situation as somewhat akin to me being attacked by a little terrier...  I'd really prefer not to harm it...



WyrdRich -> RE: US National Intelligence Estimate (10/1/2006 11:37:22 AM)

     More like tens, if not hundreds, of millions should it ever come to that.  And if we seal our borders, millions die of starvation and disease as the breadbasket of the planet gets converted to growing bio-fuels.  I'm not advocating for any such solution, merely stating that they exist.



sissifytoserve -> RE: US National Intelligence Estimate (10/1/2006 11:43:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich

More like tens, if not hundreds, of millions should it ever come to that. And if we seal our borders, millions die of starvation and disease as the breadbasket of the planet gets converted to growing bio-fuels. I'm not advocating for any such solution, merely stating that they exist.



Oh..what a bunch of hooey.

There is PLENTY of room on the planet to grow food..including Africa.In fact....If the Big internationalist banks would stop squeezing native peoples out to grow CASH CROPS for western markets.......and Africans could get better distribution....starvation would be much less of a problem.

Some people don't WANT that to happen ...out of their SELFISHNESS and GREED.


Its also about POPULATION CONTROL.....a LONG-TERM objective of the rulers of this planet.

Get rid of the so-called "useless eaters".



MrRodgers -> RE: US National Intelligence Estimate (10/1/2006 12:04:36 PM)

First, tactical operations were born of total incompetance and arrogance. Item: Bush I: Took 500,000 troops JUST to remove Saddam from Kuwait. The fair-haired boy of the family and his corporate cabinet use 125,000 (1/4) to take over and run the country. This is after disbanding the entire Iraqi govt. the Iraqi army and the Iraqi police force. These arrogant incompetants now are using tactics called clear-and-hold for the most troubled areas...some have called for more troops now to accomplsh this.

Their arrogance extended all the way upto never using the knowledge of not only his father (Bush I) but say for example Eisenhower. When he sent troops anywhere being a military man, (Commanding Gen. of allied forces at D-Day, WWII) he knew that in all such interventions, his men would be at risk so he also sent an armored division to 'clear and hold. They came complete with (30,000 men each) their own intelligence, trucks, tanks and transporation and fortifications to do what...protect your interior and your flanks and nothing inside your perimeter is a threat. With another 5-6 divisions 'at the start' we would control the country now.

How did we avoid an insurgency in Japan or Germany...Marshall LAW and WE BECAME THE GOVT. No elections, no debate...WE took over...PERIOD. Then we LENT them moeny to rebuild AFTER WE installed a new govt. that would be soon subject to elections. No matter your religion or your matyrs or whoever you follow religiously, WE should have been the ENTIRE IRAQI GOVT. from day 1.

Let us recall that this (NIE Estimate) is from the same people who said unequivocally that there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. Some will say that 'estimate'  was minipulated to show a threat and I wouldn't put it past any administration and thus certainly THIS administration to minipulate an 'Intelligence Estinate.' But this report offers nothing new for me.

WE are not losing our civil liberties BUT those over seas most certainly are. How about the Canadian arrested in NY returning to Canada, flown to Syria and tortured into a false confession ? And there are others...THEY are losing their civil liberties in a very big way. The leading suspect now for all kidnappings in Europe is the US govt.






sissifytoserve -> RE: US National Intelligence Estimate (10/1/2006 12:19:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers


WE are not losing our civil liberties BUT those over seas most certainly are.




I disagree....the Constitutional principles this country was founded on are being evicirated and taken apart.

Piece by piece.


In the name of so-called "security".





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