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new Dom looking for suggestions - 1/18/2005 8:04:28 PM   
KrazyOutlaw


Posts: 3
Joined: 1/18/2005
Status: offline 		I'm a new Dom seeking info and suggestions from experienced Doms/Masters. I am in a LTR with a woman who has expressed interest in being my slave in a 24/7 relationship. she is new to everything also, so both of us are VERY inexperienced and do not know anyone in our area yet in the lifestyle. I have set forth a list of what i will expect from her and was wanting to share what will be required of her. As I have stated neither of us have been down this road before.
Below are the things I am setting forth for her to start with:

--Every morning you will make and serve my coffee and lay my work clothes out.
--When our work day is done you will kneel in front of me and remove my socks and shoes.
--You will give me 30min to an hour of quite time to unwind each night.
--You will have dinner ready no later than 7pm.
--Television programs are no longer an option, you will watch what i choose or you can go to bed for the night.
--You will sit on the floor at my right side. No sitting on loveseat or sofa.
--Bedtime will be 10:30pm on Tues. and Thurs., 11:15pm on Mon. and Wed. , except on weekends which will be at my discretion.
--You will have shower time from 8:30pm - 8:45pm.
--Must turn down bed every night.
--Inspection of personal hygeine 9pm every night.
--You will drive everywhere we go.
--You must sleep at the foot of the bed unless I state otherwise.
--Must remain 1 step behind and to the right when in public.
--Oral sex before work and during quite time, you will be required to swallow during these times. Although I may choose to cum elsewhere on your body, its up to me.
--Be prepared for sexual activity on demand, no excuses as to why you are not ready.
--You may listen to music for 1 hr., this includes you travel time in the truck to and from school.
--You will be alotted 2 hrs a day computer time unless it pertains to school work.
--You will shave me when told (head,back,chest,and balls).
--Must dry me off when i exit the shower.
--All housework and laundry will be your responsibility.
--Maintain all toys.
--You will show respect when talking to me: yes,sir , no,sir , thank you, please, etc.
--You will wear your training collar and braclets at all times.
--You will not argue with me, what I say goes and nothing more.
--I reserve the right to change any rules or rituals as I see fit.


Sorry for such a long post but I am looking for feedback and suggestions, all will be welcomed.

Outlaw





Profile   Post #: 1
RE: new Dom looking for suggestions - 1/18/2005 8:53:07 PM   
siamsa24


Posts: 2426
Joined: 2/2/2004
Status: offline 		I don't mean to pick, but you did ask for feedback.

Why is it that you give her quiet time and then require her to give you oral sex during that time? One would think that the quiet time would be reserved for her personal mental health or reflection, although that may not be your intent.

quote:

Be prepared for sexual activity on demand, no excuses as to why you are not ready

Having been in this situation before I can tell you that it may be unpractical. Sometimes one is simply not feeling turned on, this is not like a switch that you can turn on and off. She may be able to please you in other ways, but sex may not be the way.

And where is the part where she can voice her emotions? Even if she is a 24/7 slave she still has emotions and opinions. She has to be given a chance to express them or her health will suffer.

On a more personal note, I would not be able to handle only a 15 minute shower. Although I am one of those that uses the shower as a mini-spa

(in reply to KrazyOutlaw)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: new Dom looking for suggestions - 1/18/2005 9:25:46 PM   
topcat


Posts: 1675
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Tidewater, VA
Status: offline 		M. Outlaw-

Wow-

you have really got your work cut out for you- do you have any idea how much work it is to keep these things in mind, enforce them, and make it all work?

you have to remember each rule better than she does, create some way of keeping track of the transgressions, judicate an appropriate corection, and apply them.

Seriously, bro- you'll be crying uncle before her!

quote:

--Every morning you will make and serve my coffee and lay my work clothes out.
--When our work day is done you will kneel in front of me and remove my socks and shoes.
--You will give me 30min to an hour of quite time to unwind each night.


These will work OK.

quote:

--You will have dinner ready no later than 7pm.


Maybe- but god help you the first time you are late...

quote:

--You will have shower time from 8:30pm - 8:45pm.


aw- be a sport- give her her an extra 30 minutes- use it for your quiet time.

quote:

--You will drive everywhere we go.


I like this one- but don't be a backseat driver<g>...

quote:

--Must remain 1 step behind and to the right when in public.


Keep her a step AHEAD of you- so you can keep an eye on her- and if you are the dom, she should be on your LEFT.

quote:

--Oral sex before work and during quite time, you will be required to swallow during these times. Although I may choose to cum elsewhere on your body, its up to me.
--Be prepared for sexual activity on demand, no excuses as to why you are not ready.


I'd just leave this as 'if you say 'no' you had better start packing'- but allow for her moods, or you will learn the real meaning of mood...

If want to be the man- you better be the man- You have to be really right, not just 'right becuase I say so', you have to keep on top of everything, be ready for the unexpected, make her feel wanted needed, important everydamn day. You have to never miss a trick, never have an off day, never give an order that will not be obeyed.

Good luck-

Stay warm,
Lawrence

PS- her name wouldn't be Cindy, would it?








< Message edited by topcat -- 1/18/2005 9:26:39 PM >

_____________________________

-there is no remission without blood-

(in reply to KrazyOutlaw)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: new Dom looking for suggestions - 1/18/2005 10:38:03 PM   
EStrict


Posts: 729
Joined: 1/11/2004
Status: offline 		Top, I love your replies :) You hit most of the points I saw, but to add a few others:

*If she is allowed 2 hours computer time that is *her* time, already granted. So, if she is in the middle of something (I play poker and could be tournament where there is thousands of dollars at stake). If you say *now* and there are *no excuses*, you are saying your own word (that she has this time allocated and could be doing something that will take specific time) is not worth the breath, or that you don't really mean *now is now* IMO.

*15 minutes in the shower is nice. Do you have her shave? Legs? Cunt? Allow her to use moisturising creams to stay soft for you? Does she have long hair? If not, do you ever plan on it growing? It can take me 10 minutes in the bathroom to just wash, condition, and comb out my wet hair. That's why I only wash it every other day instead of every shower.

*The music,,, 1 hr a day. What if she doesn't listen to it when she driving to and from shcool (as it reads it isn't the time it HAS to be listened to, just the part of the time allowed and included if done at that time), can she pick what to listen to when she is driving you?

Life has a funny way of happening. As Top mentioned, this many explicit rules can cause more problems than it makes your life easier. And as also mentioned, she is still a person, and since she is never allowed to disagree, are you looking for a doormat? Why have her go to college if you are not going to allow her to use her brain, but rather are attempting to turn her into an automaton?



< Message edited by EStrict -- 1/18/2005 10:39:38 PM >

_____________________________

Sandy

Don't take life too seriously, no one gets out alive anyway...

(in reply to topcat)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: new Dom looking for suggestions - 1/18/2005 11:50:34 PM   
perverseangelic


Posts: 2625
Joined: 2/2/2004
From: Davis, Ca
Status: offline 		A couple practicality comments.

1. (I'm assuming you mean on the bed at the foot of it. This could be incorrect, in which case the statment is withdrawn) A bed really isn't designed for someone to sleep at the foot of it. And you're gonna get tired of kicking her. We have enough trouble with the cats.

2. Give her -lots- of blankets for sitting on the floor. From experience, it's a lot colder down there than you think.

3. Thirded that 15 min is short for a shower, especialy for a fully-shaved long haired person.

4. I'm curious as to the reasons behind regulating her music consumption. Why time how much music she can enjoy? (Curiosity here, not judgement)

About the sex thing, too. We can fake a lot, but a lot of times you just plain can't fake excitment. Too, I know you're aware of it, but a lot of us get kinda wonky while we're bleeding or just before. I know I am so tender I can barely be touched. Just somethin' to think about.

_____________________________

~in the begining it is always dark~

(in reply to EStrict)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: new Dom looking for suggestions - 1/19/2005 12:21:46 AM   
BeachMystress


Posts: 2156
Joined: 4/3/2004
From: Naples Island- Long Beach CA - Southern California
Status: offline
Since you're both inexperienced, you may want to start with half of your rules given up front and add a few more every couple of weeks. If she feels there is too much to remember, she may become frustrated. New submissives often experience an emotional roller coaster. Starting slow and building on your relationship is a better idea than overwhelming each other and imploding. I personally would pick the 7 rules I cared the most about and make them the first installment given. (Why 7? Because our brain is comfortable with sets of 7 -plus or minus two) Use a mnemonic to help her commit them to memory. Acronyms (formed by using each first letter from a group of words to form a new word) are great for rote memorization. I'd add the next group of rules three to four weeks out depending upon how she did with the first group. Experiments do suggest that learning is most effective if it is distributed over time.

You need to remember that you are learning also. Don't overwhelm yourself either. Going from a normal relationship to having to micromanage someone is a real shock. It gets dull very quickly. (And she will need micromanagement at first with that set of rules you have.) Give yourself a chance to learn and grow as well. If you over schedule yourself too early on, you may become lax in enforcing the rules. You'll forget or be tired or one of a dozen other reasons. When you don't enforce your own rules, it damages the power dynamic. Consistency is the key.

It sounds like you have the potential for one hell of a relationship here. Good luck!

_____________________________

Beach Mystress
*Do not threaten the weak. Intimidate the strong. ~ Stevenson*
http://beachmystress.jigsy.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/beachmystress/

(in reply to KrazyOutlaw)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: new Dom looking for suggestions - 1/19/2005 1:38:50 AM   
domtimothy46176


Posts: 670
Joined: 12/25/2004
From: Dayton, Ohio area
Status: offline 		I would tend to agree with BeachMystress and others who made comments to the effect that your list may be too much to keep track of in one chunk. Speaking only for myself, I've found it to be more constructive to begin with a smaller set of guidlines that I feel I can give my complete focus to everyday and really work on those with my girl. If it's more than I can keep up with consistently, it's better to leave it out. Consistentcy builds trust and respect.
Even with a smaller amount of behavior to oversee, you may find that it's not always as cut and dried as you first imagined. Be prepared to feel like a fool at least once when you set up a contradictory situation, it's almost inevitable. It could be something as simple as dinner being late because you've tasked her with something that prevented her from going to the store or laying out the chicken to defrost. It's amazing how many things can bite you in the ass.
I've found that one of the more effective ways for me to start with someone new is to make slight changes in the routine she's already comfortable with. It becomes more a process of perfecting her routine than throwing her world into chaos. This assumes there is something of value in her normal routine, of course.
I have found that when I make changes in my girl's routine, it's very helpful if I take the time to sit down with her and discuss the change, explaining precisely why I am making it, what I see the potential benefit is to our relationship and giving her the opportunity to voice any concerns she may have. On more than one occasion I've discovered there was something I hadn't thought of, a time conflict, a perceived contradiction with another rule, etc. It also gives me an opportunity to gauge the level of my girl's enthusiasm for the change which can be very useful.
I would also like to point out that if she truly desires to serve, she may only need guidance in how to do so most appropriately. I have found my girl will regularly find new ways to please me. I would never want to structure her day so completely that she lost sight of why she serves me. She doesn't need me to give her rules, she had rules before she met me. Many of her responsibilities, cooking, cleaning, laundry, shopping, etc. are things she's done since childhood. The difference is that I provide her an opportunity to serve with honor and integrity.
While it is important to ensure that she understands what her boundaries for self-expression are, it's equally important, IMO, to provide adequate opportunity for her to be who and what she is. That can sometimes be a delicate balancing act. First and foremost, she's a human being with her own strengths and weaknesses that must be taken into account.
When I was new to D/s, I was a lot more inclined to think in black and white. My "job" was to set the rules and enforce them, her job was to obey. At this point I think it's a lot more complicated than that. I find my beliefs have evolved with time and experience. These days I am still prone to describe it as a symbiotic relationship but the emphasis is now on the relationship. My girl needs to serve but that is only one of her needs. If I lose sight of the fact that she has other needs and focus only on her service and obedience, I am not relating to the whole person and subsequently may not be ensuring that I provide a healthy, happy place for her.
Best of luck in your journey,
Timothy

(in reply to BeachMystress)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: new Dom looking for suggestions - 1/19/2005 4:34:35 AM   
KrazyOutlaw


Posts: 3
Joined: 1/18/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: siamsa24


Why is it that you give her quiet time and then require her to give you oral sex during that time? One would think that the quiet time would be reserved for her personal mental health or reflection, although that may not be your intent.


i don't give her quite time, the quite time is mine after work... she is not to run her mouth during that time.



quote:

ORIGINAL: topcat


quote:

--You will have shower time from 8:30pm - 8:45pm.


aw- be a sport- give her her an extra 30 minutes- use it for your quiet time.
PS- her name wouldn't be Cindy, would it?



this isn't a bad idea it hadn't crossed my mind that way.
lmao..no it isn't



quote:

ORIGINAL: EStrict

Why have her go to college if you are not going to allow her to use her brain, but rather are attempting to turn her into an automaton?




i want her to have a brain and do allow her input and listen to her opinons and no i don't want a doormat. like i had said we both are new to this so not everything listed has been put into motion yet. i was wanting to see what others thought or could suggest.


quote:

ORIGINAL: perverseangelic


A bed really isn't designed for someone to sleep at the foot of it. And you're gonna get tired of kicking her. We have enough trouble with the cats.


the way we sleep i have never kicked her yet.

quote:


I'm curious as to the reasons behind regulating her music consumption. Why time how much music she can enjoy? (Curiosity here, not judgement)


because she doesn't really watch tv and music is her preferred choice and she would listen to it 24/7 given the chance.

BeachMystress, i like the suggestion of 7 rules to start with.



thanks to everyone who replied i appreciated the insight and will more than likely be rethinking several things. you all have been helpful. I'd just like to further say that this woman isn't someone i'm just dating, we are engaged and i definitely do not want any of this to be done in a way as to where it ruins our relationship. we have been talking of attending demos/discussion groups in our area and have considered trying to locate a mentor in our area. thanx again for the comments




< Message edited by KrazyOutlaw -- 1/19/2005 5:07:38 AM >

(in reply to EStrict)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: new Dom looking for suggestions - 1/19/2005 7:26:08 AM   
nella


Posts: 1243
Joined: 12/30/2004
From: Norway
Status: offline 		To be quite honeset, that list would have made me quite insane werry fast, but i will not butt in, it is Yours and hers relationship, but if i was to predict, that relationship would not go well, you hardly give her enoh time just to be herself. If she is never to be alowed to watch the TV shows she like, have restrictions on shower time, only get to do her favorite thing for one houer? we all have needs, even submissives and slaves and i do not think that list will give her alot of operturiny to furfill her own needs.

(in reply to KrazyOutlaw)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: new Dom looking for suggestions - 1/19/2005 10:05:03 AM   
perverseangelic


Posts: 2625
Joined: 2/2/2004
From: Davis, Ca
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KrazyOutlaw

quote:

ORIGINAL: siamsa24


Why is it that you give her quiet time and then require her to give you oral sex during that time? One would think that the quiet time would be reserved for her personal mental health or reflection, although that may not be your intent.


i don't give her quite time, the quite time is mine after work... she is not to run her mouth during that time.




One last thing. Give her quiet time. All of us need it, even if it's just locking ourselves in the bathroom for a half hour.

If it's important to you that she's on at all times, program in some down time. I know it's gonna suck to be without her for a half hour or so, but it will do -wonders- for the mental state.

_____________________________

~in the begining it is always dark~

(in reply to KrazyOutlaw)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: new Dom looking for suggestions - 1/19/2005 10:44:10 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

I am in a LTR with a woman who has expressed interest in being my slave in a 24/7 relationship.


KO,
Before I would respond to your list I need to know some things. You are her have been in a Long Term Relationship (LTR). How do the rules you list differ from what is occurring in your current relationship? Have you talked with her about these expectations? Is her concept of living 24/7 as your slave integrated in these rules?

If the rules are just formalizing how she behaves when in your presence or when you are active in your Dom/sub roles, I don't imagine you'll have a problem transitioning them to 24/7. If these all come as a surprise to her - then you may need to rethink some of them.

Have FUN!

(in reply to KrazyOutlaw)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: new Dom looking for suggestions - 1/19/2005 11:14:49 AM   
proudsub


Posts: 6142
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Washington
Status: offline
quote:

My girl needs to serve but that is only one of her needs. If I lose sight of the fact that she has other needs and focus only on her service and obedience, I am not relating to the whole person and subsequently may not be ensuring that I provide a healthy, happy place for her.


Very well said Timothy. I might add that as nella has pointed out in a few threads, most of us subs need some time to pursue our own interests as well (mine being golf and internet games), and also time with friends and family. I am hoping the rules that Krazyoutlaw outlined would be flexible when needed and allow his sub some time for herself.

_____________________________

proudsub

"Without goals you become what you were. With goals you become what you wish." .

"You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts"--Alan Greenspan


(in reply to domtimothy46176)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: new Dom looking for suggestions - 1/19/2005 11:21:53 AM   
KrazyOutlaw


Posts: 3
Joined: 1/18/2005
Status: offline 		Mercnbeth -
We have sat down together and discussed the things on the list, some of the things on there happen already almost on a daily basis and somethings on there she,herself has thrown in the air at some point and some are things i would like to happen eventually. Any ideas on how two inexperienced people go about what we are seeking and end result being positive is greatly appreciated.


Currently we are not living 24/7, as i have stated we are both new and very inexperienced so i thought i would just throw out there some things we have discussed and see what kind of feed back it would generate. I guess in a sense we are just feeling around right now...we really have no reason or desire to just dive in and have our relationship fail, but at the same time we have noticed that when we our relationship leans toward vanilla neither of us seem as happy and there seems to be more friction at times. I guess in a sense we are also trying to find ourselves. I have never been with a woman who expressed and interest in anything like this and she has never had a man she cared enough for to want to go there, so in a way it is sorta overwhelming with a bit of excitement.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: new Dom looking for suggestions - 1/19/2005 12:16:05 PM   
EStrict


Posts: 729
Joined: 1/11/2004
Status: offline 		I am trying to figure out the music thing. She prefers music to TV. Is her listening to music detrimental to other things she do you get enjoyment out of not allowing her pleasures?

I know personally I am not someone who believe silence is golden. I go nuts in total silence. I can't concentrate on anything but the lack of noise.

There have been studies done that show that workplaces that allowing back ground music increases productivity. Unless it is making her less productive, is there a reason this would be something needed when you aren't even around?

Just curious.

_____________________________

Sandy

Don't take life too seriously, no one gets out alive anyway...

(in reply to KrazyOutlaw)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: new Dom looking for suggestions - 1/19/2005 12:30:57 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

it is sorta overwhelming with a bit of excitement.


How GREAT is that huh??!!! Great for you! Try your best to remember how you feel now and have as a goal only increasing the level of excitement.

You've got many great suggestions regarding the specifics from many others. In a broad stoke, I'd say be broader in your initial rules. You don't want to be in the middle of something you, her, or both of you are enjoying and realize that some specific 'rule' is being broken.

When you move in together things WILL change. Most for the better, but there will be the mundane details of life. Try and integrate the life you want into these details. They may still be basically 'vanilla' but they can have a fudge swirl aspect to them. Laugh together, when either your best plan, or her best attempt just doesn't work. You are now 24/7, all the time in the world to start over or try again.

D/s if anything is the best elimination of the 'friction' you mention. Even without the details, you have assumed specific dynamic roles. As Master it's your responsibility to stop the friction. Regardless of the cause, you control the situation. You can stop it, you should stop it, and it is more important then any specific rule. It's simple. In any public or private setting. Just say to her something to the effect; "slave, when we get back home, you will be punished for that outbreak." It's actually best when said softly, and with as little emotion as possible. Not only does this reinforce the dynamic, it short circuits the friction. Your slave's mind for the rest of the day should be contemplating what will happen when you are back home. You shouldn't make it a point to shorten whatever it is you are doing to get home. Enjoy yourself.

You have the right attitude, you've communicated, you have a goal. That's really all the tools you need. If you are really lucky, you will each "find yourself" in the relationship you are contemplating.

Good LUCK!

Congrats!

(in reply to KrazyOutlaw)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: new Dom looking for suggestions - 1/22/2005 10:05:31 PM   
Focus50


Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
Status: offline 		Yep, you're a new Dom alright....! Most of (even all) the things you've listed are quite ok, I s'pose, but it also sounds like it's derived more from fantasy than reality and practicality.... Does it really matter what time she showers? And are you so lazy that you need her to dry you after your shower? Nightly inspections imply you don't trust her and a Master decides her bed-time, not the clock! My girl goes to bed either when I do or when I tell her to but she may still ask permission for an exemption on occasion.

Owning a slave is hard work for the Master, too! Me, I'm an independent fella who, quite frankly, enjoys doing things for himself, too! I'm perfectly able of making my own coffee; of shaving and dressing/undressing; and I prefer to drive when out with my girl etc.... And it's bound to look "odd" having her walk behind and to one side. I don't push D/s into vanilla faces by attracting attention to us this way - she walks beside me and holds my hand or arm.

I define a difference between my girl serving me and being my servant.... The latter notion can lead to a lack of respect for her sub/slave qualities. I like women and I'm not gonna have my slave sleeping at the foot of my bed when I can enjoy cuddling up to her female nakedness. Sleeping elsewhere can be a punishment for her, not the status quo!

Rather than developing theoretical rules and requirements, why not wait until you're actually together and set your required standard based on actual need and practicality? As long as she serves as expected, I'd see no reason to restrict her music, pc or TV time etc.... Slaves need their own time and space to unwind, too!

Back off with the rules and introduce them over time and need.... My slave is the woman I love, not just a menial functionary! An M/s relationship is for BOTH to enjoy and too much control can suffocate your slave's spirit.

Focus50.

(in reply to KrazyOutlaw)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: new Dom looking for suggestions - 1/22/2005 10:51:01 PM   
proudsub


Posts: 6142
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Washington
Status: offline 		Well said Focus, i agree 100%.

_____________________________

proudsub

"Without goals you become what you were. With goals you become what you wish." .

"You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts"--Alan Greenspan


(in reply to Focus50)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: new Dom looking for suggestions - 1/23/2005 3:50:25 AM   
ScreamingLife


Posts: 1
Joined: 1/23/2005
Status: offline 		First off, I am new to the site so hello to all.

Now Outlaw,

I think this is a very important point so I would like to reenforce it. You are new to the lifestyle and though you may have been "dominant" in your previous relationships, remember you are in completely new territory. It is easy to go into the lifestyle with ideas of what a M/s relationship is and what those roles are, but understand that every relationship is different, especially M/s ones. It is critical to take your time when training your slave, especially when your learning yourself. Take it slow and give her time to learn you (it is equally if not more important for you to learn her). Being a Master is a FULL time responsibility. There is far more to it than just "do what I say when I say it". You have to have control at all times but she also must have a desire to give you that control all the time. Remember she has to enjoy how you dominate her, if she does not this can prove to be a very bad experience for the both of you and a turn off to the lifestyle. The M/s relationship in my opinion is the most satisfying and rewarding type of a relationship one can be engaged in, so don't rush it. Start slow, give each other time to grow, and don't bite off more than you can chew. Remember, as a Master, you are everything to her, it is a heavy burden, don't be a tyrant.

Good luck to the both of you,

MSL


< Message edited by ScreamingLife -- 1/23/2005 3:54:06 AM >

(in reply to proudsub)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: new Dom looking for suggestions - 1/23/2005 2:07:28 PM   
Socrateaser


Posts: 8
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		My two cents.

Since you are both new, and new to each other, taking the time to learn how each other reacts to your list is important. Part of being the dominant is to understand your sub/slave well enough to guide her when she needs it. If you know that activity "X" will click for her but activity "Y" doesnt, the approach for each will vary greatly.

Moreover, as you get more feedback from her, not to mention from yourself, I bet your list will expand to things that are far more personal between the two of you.

(in reply to ScreamingLife)
Profile   Post #: 19
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