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Vanishing Dominance - 10/4/2006 8:11:45 PM   
LotusSong


Posts: 6334
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Domme Emeritus
Status: offline 		This has been touched on and I can't find the thread.. but I have a specific question concerning this phenomenon:
 
Say you found someone, and they are all that and a bag of chips.. you collar.. then you decide to  make it permanent and legal (marriage) going for the coveted 24/7 D/s lifestyle, then the Dominant (male and/or female) begins to be not so dominant anymore.. in fact- it all but disappears... why do you think that is?
 
If you are the slave- what do you do?
 
Reverse this thought to reflect the Dominant who marries their slave.. and the SLAVE changes shortly afterward...how would you handle it?
 
CAN you base a complete marriage solely on D/s as it's foundation.. or do you need a conventional base and have the D/s be the icing on the cake?
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Vanishing Dominance - 10/4/2006 8:24:39 PM   
Caitriona


Posts: 327
Joined: 8/28/2006
Status: offline 		This is something that I'm struggling with at the moment...figuring out what the balance is between the marriage and the D/s dynamic.  We agree that, for us, the marriage is the foundation for our D/s dynamic. 

However, it is hard for me sometimes to not desire the sort of equality that I have always had in previous relationships.  I find it difficult to bring up disagreements, concerns, ect in a D/s context without feeling like I'm losing my status as his wife.  I don't know if that makes sense, really, as it's hard to put into words.

He's well aware of my concerns and knows that I need reassurance of being heard, ect.  I have to work on not being so insecure and remembering that this is something I chose as well as something we want.  It's not just about him, although that can be hard to remember sometimes because so much of what I do revolves around his desires.

So, in a nutshell...it is my opinion that you need the marriage (or commited relationship of your choice) as the base for the D/s lifestyle.




_____________________________

Property of Shadowraven
Serving alongside ciarra

(in reply to LotusSong)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: Vanishing Dominance - 10/4/2006 8:33:26 PM   
spanklette


Posts: 882
Joined: 2/22/2005
Status: offline 		As one who is looking forward to marriage and a collar, we have discussed this phenomenon at length. We came to a few conclusions about our personal bond, and I'm sure these won't apply to every situation in which this happens.
 
Our relationship is what it is. He is my Dominant and I am His submissive. This doesn't require any sexual excitement, in fact, sometimes it can be fairly ho-hum. It's habitual. If anything, I think this dynamic will become more ingrained over the years.
 
The sexual/chemistry of our relationship may suffer. I think this would be tough for us, because we enjoy our chemistry so much. But, our chemistry does not define our relationship. Our chemistry is defined by our relationship.
 
I don't expect that our power exchange will lessen over time, but I do expect there will be changes and adjustments. I am sure that compromises will be made and life will move on.
 
I think this would be a larger issue if the power exchange is difficult for one or the other. If the power exchange requires work, I can imagine that people get tired of trying so hard.

_____________________________

~spanklette~

"The important thing is this: to be able at any moment to sacrifice what we are for what we could become. " Charles du Bois

"Please don't shout, can't you see I'm not listening." Billie Myers

(in reply to LotusSong)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: Vanishing Dominance - 10/4/2006 8:38:29 PM   
DiurnalVampire


Posts: 8125
Joined: 1/19/2006
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong
Say you found someone, and they are all that and a bag of chips.. you collar.. then you decide to  make it permanent and legal (marriage) going for the coveted 24/7 D/s lifestyle, then the Dominant (male and/or female) begins to be not so dominant anymore.. in fact- it all but disappears... why do you think that is?
 

Usualy, its comfort. The few relationships between Domme and sub I have seen this happen with have all been becasue of comfort.  That and routine.  The domme had fallen into the habit of giving orders, having things done, and then not realy thinking about it.  Eventualy, the sub knew what was going to be asked, and she no longer needed to give orders. When she didnt have to ask, she didnt, and eventually things started to go downhill. It doesnt happen to everyone, but the ones I ahve seen, the Domme was dominant becsue she enjoyed it, not becaue it was part of her personality, either.
 
quote:


Reverse this thought to reflect the Dominant who marries their slave.. and the SLAVE changes shortly afterward...how would you handle it?
 

I am not sue how I would handle this if it were to happen.   A big part of it would rest on wether I fell in love with the slave becasue he was a slave and then a lover, or vice versa.  If he were a lover first, then it would have to be discussed. If it was a "phase" then there might be problems, since I can easily be in an equal relationship with someone who I love and respect, however I cannot be with someone who cannot be honest with themselves.
quote:


CAN you base a complete marriage solely on D/s as it's foundation.. or do you need a conventional base and have the D/s be the icing on the cake?

You can base a marraige on D/s as its BEGINNING, but I dont think it can be based solely on it.  There is no one thing you can base a marraige on.  There has to be a whole variety of things wrking together, of which a D/s dynamic would be ust one more facet in a very intricate design. Without love, trust, loyalty, honesty, friendship and a host of others, a marraige would fall apart. I know, I have already had one that did.

My opinion, of course, not presumed to be facts. Take them as you will

DV

_____________________________

I will be your Dominate if you will be my submit - Fox

Snarko Ergo Sum
If you cannot change your mind, how are you so sure you still have one? -proverb

*Owner of Fox - collared 10/13/07*
VampiresLair

(in reply to LotusSong)
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RE: Vanishing Dominance - 10/4/2006 8:39:39 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		We cannot force another human being to be what we want them to be. It would not be consensual if we could

Lets look at it another way, if a couple gets married and one of them quits wanting sex altogether what do you do? Well you decide if you can live that way... if you can't I guess that is the answer for you.

I would try communicating about it, and if that did not work I think I would either be in a place to accept that or I wouldn't. There are so many factors that would play a role in that decision I can't say what I would do. Is it a health thing, or an emotional thing, or maybe you married someone who is questioning their orientation? It just would depend...

Without talking about it I think it would be very hard to remain. If you cannot talk you might have nothing worth saving  in my opinion. Without talking things usually die... especially marriages...

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to LotusSong)
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RE: Vanishing Dominance - 10/4/2006 8:48:41 PM   
PrimitiveLogic


Posts: 145
Joined: 4/25/2006
From: Md.
Status: offline 		I feel that Ds related relationships are so focused on exploring limits and depths; that down time, or the moments in between the moments are never promoted early on. Being in role, vs being in person; is also a challenge. A complete relationship needs more than endorphin surges to endure. As to evolution of self and self identity; that in itself creates a different person than the one who started the journey with you. More is the operative word...the hard part is more of what?

(in reply to juliaoceania)
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RE: Vanishing Dominance - 10/4/2006 9:02:26 PM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline
I thank god that no matter which direction everything goes, at least I got that bag of chips out of it.

(in reply to LotusSong)
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RE: Vanishing Dominance - 10/4/2006 9:52:33 PM   
Mavis


Posts: 828
Joined: 2/8/2004
Status: offline 		i've wondered if -- in first marriages anyway --- if that isn't related to that feeling "OMG, now I AM all grown up for sure" feeling that happens a few months to a year into it.   We start patterning after what we "know": about grownup marriage, and probably not too many of us have a D/s or M/s pattern to rely on, so we slip into nilla style habituated behaviors? 

i know my inside girl may have always wanted to submit to my husband, but nothing in my life made me think to say "Yes Sir" to a husband.  How many men ever considered talking to their wife like "C'mere, slave" or "Yes Mistess"?     No matter what choices i may have made to D/s or M/s leanings, it still doesn't mesh with the video in my head that says "marriage".  sometimes i choose to act in accordance with the old video, and sometimes i choose to act within the new choice patterns, and i get the feeling that's how it is with a lot of couples mixing marriage and D/s.  Happily i am learning to be comfortable with the active choices that ignore the video.

Two natures beat within my breast
The one is cursed, the one is blessed,
The one I love, the one I hate,
The one i feed will dominate

(in reply to cloudboy)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Vanishing Dominance - 10/4/2006 10:34:15 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:


 
Say you found someone, and they are all that and a bag of chips.. you collar.. then you decide to  make it permanent and legal (marriage) going for the coveted 24/7 D/s lifestyle, then the Dominant (male and/or female) begins to be not so dominant anymore.. in fact- it all but disappears... why do you think that is?

 
Great questions, Lotus.
 
I think it's probably for the same reasons that it happens in vanilla marriages but with differing aspects. You get comfortable, you don't set your partner as your priority. One day you don't have sex because the cable guy is coming when in the beginning it was screw the cable guy we never watch television anyway! Then it's putting things off because of work, family, holidays and before you know it 6 months has passed by and the extent of your sex life has consisted of a quick kiss on the cheek good night and perhaps a squeeze as you walk out the door for work.
 
Been there, done that and I was determined never to do it again. I loooooooove sex, I love S/m, I adore being of service to Himself so every day I put that as a priority, I put him as a priority and I make an effort to show him how much I appreciate the fact that he keeps me around. Every day. Without fail. Sometimes it's something simple, sometimes it's something that I take a great deal of time to plan, but there is always something.
 
Today I'm on my period, have the endo thing going on, so I got on my knees and requested that I be allowed to make something easy for dinner. That's a small thing which requires little effort. He granted my request and we had breakfast for dinner. Making the request on my knees isn't something I would normally just 'do', but today it was part of my effort, to focus, to remind, remember, experience and prioritize the dynamic. Yesterday he was watching the Yankees play and I went and sat at his feet and rubbed his legs while the Yanks kicked some Lion butt. A small thing. We also have daily routines.. his dinner is always served first, everything in place. We talk during dinner while we eat, no television in the background, no music playing, just him and I and conversation. When we are done with dinner, I clear his place first, then mine, then serve him coffee, then myself and perhaps, if he wants some, whatever I have made for dessert. Routine if you like, ritual if that's what to call it, but small things which enhance and express the way we practice M/s.
 
Then, of course, there are a few times a week where he's watching television and I get naked and throw myself over his lap. He either yanks me by the hair to pull me off (hair pull, yum!) or strokes my hair and lets me lay on his just enjoying being close to him .. and the perk is, during commercials, he usually whacks my ass. It's all good. :) Win-win.
 
I'm not the only one who makes effort either. Even in his speech to me, there are constant little reminders that are just there.. whether it's calling me "his girl" asking me who I belong too.. or other things like coming up behind me and pulling my hair while I'm washing dishes or even stopping me while I'm folding laundry so he can bend me over and whack me, pinch me, bite me, whatever. Not full blown, God I'm gonna die and I can't breath scenes.. little snippets of moments that are always special because 'he' is part of them.

 
quote:

If you are the slave- what do you do?
 
See above, I think I answered this already! ::laughs::

 

quote:

CAN you base a complete marriage solely on D/s as it's foundation.. or do you need a conventional base and have the D/s be the icing on the cake?


I believe you can and I believe that's exactly what our marriage is based on, the M/s is the base for us, the flour that makes the cake .. it's what defines 'how' we live. Does it take more than M/s to make it successful, sure, but without that as the flour that holds it all together, I don't care how good the sugar is or any of the other ingrediants, for us it wouldn't stand up to the test of time without that M/s element because it's part and parcel of who we both are and where we want to go and be.

So far, so good. I've said it before, I'll say it again. The goal is forever, but what I have is the here and now, the present and that's pretty damn good and after 10+ years together, the sex is still quality and quantity and the S/m even more so. We're pretty much stupid in love with each other and strangers comment on it at times. Not too long ago a cashier at the grocery store said she liked seeing 'new love' and we just laughed about it later. Not so new, but she got the love part down perfectly. :)

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to LotusSong)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Vanishing Dominance - 10/4/2006 10:47:37 PM   
dombill32


Posts: 43
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline 		It is something that can just creep in before you realize its happening.  Everyday things can pull a person attention away from it, getting comfortable, or things falling into a routine.  We try to make sure that if we have been busy with other things that we make time to put our focus back onto it. Whether that just be talking about our roles and our relationship and things we'd like to try, scenes, or doing things to reinforce what it is we want.  I think if this does come around it can be handled more effectively than maybe a vanilla relationship, and I dont want to generalize because regardless of whether its dom/sub or vanilla it ulimately comes down to the person, but I think the chances for expressive lines of communication are more likely in this kind of relationship.  It can allow each person to be able to express their concerns a little more easily.

< Message edited by dombill32 -- 10/4/2006 10:48:32 PM >

(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Vanishing Dominance - 10/5/2006 3:02:30 AM   
DivaDuchess


Posts: 402
Joined: 8/17/2006
Status: offline 		Will someone please tell me why a piece of paper changes people?  I've seen it but never understood it.  What is the basic need for that license?  Last Friday didn't change the fact that I call them 'puppy licenses' (we got married by the way).  What, exactly, is the big deal?  Before our other wife died ... she was equal, regardless of my longevity with our husband ... she was treated the same as I was.

So why would anyone 'change' once they sign on a piece of paper?  I think perhaps you need to examine why that bothers you?  If you are that insecure, you shouldn't have married in the first place.  My parents have always said to live together is divine, to marry is for those that wish to go insane *lol*.  Of course, they were at the wedding ... but perhaps it's because I don't understand why a piece of paper should have any influence on who I am.


_____________________________

Duchess

Courage is not the absence of Fear,
But rather the judgement that,
Something else is more important than Fear.

The Brave may not live forever,
But the Cautious do not live at all.

(in reply to dombill32)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Vanishing Dominance - 10/5/2006 3:18:49 AM   
unownedredhead


Posts: 498
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		If the piece of paper had no influence on who you are.....  If you believe it had no influence on your interactions with another (commonly called a relationship)......  then how did you feel when you signed it?....close your eyes and remember....the room...what you where wearing...the smells.... what did you feel?  The first time you looked in his eyes knowing you where bound...not just by his will...but by law/society (something greater than just one or two individuals)  did you melt?  Or did you feel a surge of power?....control in the relationship?....    Did the legality of your slavery hit home? ....or its opposite?.....    Why do people change?  Because they have that whole society backing them if they want to leave.....it is powerful......it changes people.   Could you imagine if it was the reverse?   Signing a legal document made you slave forever with no getting out........ no backing down......society backing the Master?    Would that make you melt?

dina

_____________________________

Kneeling trembling at your feet

(in reply to DivaDuchess)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Vanishing Dominance - 10/5/2006 3:25:51 AM   
sharainks


Posts: 499
Joined: 12/13/2004
Status: offline 		I think to a large extent its because our ideas of marriage are formed while growing up and watching what mommy and daddy do.  Then you have society's expectations of what marriage looks like, again fed to us since our first memories.  So we have these deeply ingrained notions of what marriage is like, how we should act in it and often those ideas don't mesh with our ideas of D/s.  D/s is not deeply ingrained by society and family example.  We are on our own to develop ideas about how that would work for us. 

People have this tendency to fall back into patterns they know best.  If you understand that you can take steps to avoid falling into that pattern if you work at it and want to badly enough. 

Its kind of like expectations the unmentionables of my niece and her hubby had.  My niece is a good cook, a good baker.  Yet hubby had his mother's recipe for chocolate chip cookies that he always made.  Their offspring always expected that he would make those cookies...IE only daddy makes chocolate chip cookies.   Their unmentionables are grown and out of the house now but I wonder if they still expect that daddy makes the chocolate chip cookies. 

Thats just one tiny thing but its how we get raised. Things are done a certain way and we expect that will continue. 

(in reply to DivaDuchess)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Vanishing Dominance - 10/5/2006 5:04:15 AM   
SirLordTrainer


Posts: 820
Joined: 5/6/2004
From: Indy
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong
Reverse this thought to reflect the Dominant who marries their slave.. and the SLAVE changes shortly afterward...how would you handle it?


To say I would feel betrayed would be an understatement, but I am of the belief and personal choice that if My power exchange dynamic with said sub/slave was that solid and secure I would have no reason for the vanilla institution of marriage. But this is also coming from One who is poly. If it works for someone else, great!  Besides, I dont care for marriage, been there, done that, got the tshirt, gave it away!  lol
 
 



_____________________________

Accepting one's own imperfections eliminates a roadblock to progress.

(in reply to LotusSong)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Vanishing Dominance - 10/5/2006 5:20:03 AM   
LeatherBentOne


Posts: 469
Joined: 9/27/2005
Status: offline 		BDSM has its ebbs and flows just as everything else in life.  There can be no spearation between them in the sense that BDSM is incorporated into that life.  Therefore, we must accept the down times along with the up times as a basis for our reality.  Perhaps, that's what keeps us truly grounded, by reminding us that we don't live in a fantasy world.

(in reply to SirLordTrainer)
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RE: Vanishing Dominance - 10/5/2006 5:42:51 AM   
LotusSong


Posts: 6334
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Domme Emeritus
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LeatherBentOne

BDSM has its ebbs and flows just as everything else in life.  There can be no separation between them in the sense that BDSM is incorporated into that life.  Therefore, we must accept the down times along with the up times as a basis for our reality.  Perhaps, that's what keeps us truly grounded, by reminding us that we don't live in a fantasy world.


I have found it ebbs and flows also.   There are times I'm in a "wack 'em and crack 'em" mode and there are times I'm in a "peel me a grape" mode. 
 
I think a way to communicate and "right" the situation would be to develop specific "rituals".  Bita has a wonderful way of non-verbal communication with Himself.  She presents it in a non-threatening way to where he can either accept or reject.. like she says.. either is a win-win.
 
I know if I were in my "grape" mode for too long, all my slave would have to do is  stop and kneel before me with a "permission to speak, Mistresse" and that would trigger me to wake up.
 
Thank you for your thoughts on this :)

(in reply to LeatherBentOne)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Vanishing Dominance - 10/5/2006 5:48:26 AM   
TNstepsout


Posts: 1558
Joined: 8/3/2005
Status: offline 		I participated in a "sub" discussion group this past weekend in which this exact subject was brought up by two women in long term relationships. Neither were married (although one is planning to marry in Nov.) My thoughts after listening to them, was that it was a matter of reality vs. fantasy. In one relationship, the Dominant compared his sub to other subs he saw/observed when they were together at public functions. Of course that doesn't mean those couples interact the same way at home. In the other relationship the problem stemmed from the VERY heavy work schedule of the sub. After working a 60 hour work week, she simply didn't have the energy to come home and be service oriented.

Both situations, in my mind, revolve around expectations of D/s that can't always stand up to the test of day to day life and I think the solution is for both parties to look at their situation realistically and make decisions about what's really important to them. Both will probably have to give and take a little on their expectations. But it's important to remember not to blame the other party, but to realize it's just life and reality that is the problem, not some stubborness or bait and switch on the other person's part.

(in reply to SirLordTrainer)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Vanishing Dominance - 10/5/2006 6:09:49 AM   
MasterKinx


Posts: 1
Joined: 3/31/2006
Status: offline 		I think the reason for this is pretty simple, actually. BDSM, and D/s in particular, are largely based on "conditional regard." Long-term relationships, however, are founded on unconditional love. The two aren't polar opposites, but it takes constant work to keep two such incompatible notions in play at the same time.

As people become more comfortable in their relationships, the dynamic changes. For example, a slave may no longer work as hard to earn approval, while a master may not always remember to give out contingent rewards. This doesn't happen overnight; it's a gradual process.

I don't think there's a simple recipe for avoiding this. I think it's endemic, and any solution that two people agree on has to be based on a thorough understanding of the different dynamics at work. So, mindfulness, maturity, and communication are key--just as in any other relationship--but each couple has to find its own answer.

(in reply to LotusSong)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Vanishing Dominance - 10/5/2006 6:25:33 AM   
deltadawn


Posts: 224
Joined: 7/15/2006
Status: offline 		I feel I need to post to this thread as I am married to my Master.  There are times when the hectic days of work and unmentionables make it hard to focus just on ourselves.  There are days when things appear to be very vanilla, but that is ok.  24/7 does not mean there needs to be a slave on her knees or a Master shouting orders. 

What I cannot relate to is that all dynamics of D/s disappear.  I cannot relate to it as I have never felt it.  Maybe it is just in the comfort of finally finding each other, our relationship has just never gone there.

There is never a moment that he is not my Master.  He is my Master when we sit together in the park and watch one of the unmentionables play football or soccer.  He is my Master when we have company over and a certain look passes my way.  He is my Master when we are each in other rooms going over bills, social plans, and the dreaded homework.    In reverse, I am his slave whether I am kneeling at his feet or standing to his side.  It is just there.

When we decided to marry it was because we chose together to begin a family.  The piece of paper made it more acceptable to our vanilla family members.  We also felt it would be better for any unmentionables that came along.  The wedding ring means a lot to me, but does not compare to the collar I wear around my heart.  I was his slave way before I was his wife.  He was my Master a long time before he was my husband. 

I am just ranting here, a good rant maybe but a rant just the same.  All I can say is that if suddenly he was not the Dominant I know him to be, I would communicate with him and try to find out why, but no matter what he would still be Master to me.

dawn

_____________________________

Beneath his wings, I can fly.

(in reply to LotusSong)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Vanishing Dominance - 10/5/2006 6:35:20 AM   
LotusSong


Posts: 6334
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Domme Emeritus
Status: offline 		http://www.leathernroses.com/submission/steelefrenzies.htm

It could be due to the "Submissive Frenzies" 

(in reply to LotusSong)
Profile   Post #: 20
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