RE: Thinking *BIG* (Full Version)

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pahunkboy -> RE: Thinking *BIG* (10/6/2006 10:45:12 AM)

folks on the west coast will protest ANYTHING.

no one really even looks. if someone protests in my neck of teh woods. people look.



meatcleaver -> RE: Thinking *BIG* (10/6/2006 12:25:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

The main thrust of what I am saying is the concept of soldiers carrying out Government orders - i.e. execution.

The fact that many wars are fought for control of resources, I agree with you

So, as you claim my analysis is too simplistic, you should have no problem explaining why. Picking at the bones of a post does not win the argument when there is a far more substantial piece of meat to get your teeth into i.e. the crux of what I am saying.


The government doesn't order executions, that would be a war crime as defined in the Geneva convention. If soldiers execute someone whether under orders or not, they are commiting a war crime. The Iraq war might be illegal (and who is to say it is or it isn't, smart arsed lawyers can't even decide that one) but as long as soldiers don't kill in cold blood they are not executing people. Most people the military have killed are combatants. I too have a big problem with "collateral damage" but to accuse the military of executing people only gives people with opposing views the opportunity to blow a raspberry.

The fact that many wars are fought for control of resources and they are politically inspired, I agree with you but there is a big difference between soldiers killing combatants and carrying out executions.



Chaingang -> RE: Thinking *BIG* (10/6/2006 1:22:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy
if someone protests in my neck of teh woods. people look.


From the article:
"Anti-Bush demonstrations are planned in more than 150 cities across the nation, as well as in Canada and Switzerland, as part of a movement that has been coalescing on the Internet for the past year."



luckydog1 -> RE: Thinking *BIG* (10/6/2006 6:09:18 PM)

No, I don't think I missed anything.  You assert ,""However, let's move beyond the notion that freedom is anything more than Government propaganda."   .  I challenge that, and you want to change the subject.  Do you really think that?  That freedom is nothing but Gov propaganda?  I would not try to argue that England( or any nation) is Pure, but there was a real difference between the Nazis and the Brits.  Do you disagree?  As to your off point questions, I think the behavior in Victory of Britian speaks volumes.  Granting freedom to the continent of Europe and starting a process of decolonization around the globe.  England is not perfect, but they also didn't shoot Ghandi in the head the first time he spoke out.   As to the second, you are jumping from specifics( 20 individuals) to generalities( german nationalistic tendancies).  Radical Pan Islam has been gearing up for war with the west for over 20 years, that involved conditioning the attackers of 911 from childhood.  Right or Wrong,  the policy is to try to prevent a much larger war from occuring later.  An analogy would have been stopping Hitler when he moved on Czechoslovakia, preventing ww2 and the millions of deaths later.  Or we could have done what the Anti War movement wanted then, just surrender, and watch millions die in concentration camps for their sexuality, ethnicity or political thoughts, and hope they don't come for you.  Thats basically what the Anti War movement wanted in the Cold war also.  And today they want....?



Sinergy -> RE: Thinking *BIG* (10/6/2006 6:20:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

The only threat to your freedom is your Government that is currently embarking on a programme to limit your civil liberties. The whole freedom line is simply intended to con people into thinking war is a just cause.



Hello NorthernGent, A/all.

I completely agree with this statement.  One of our founding fathers, I believe Benjamin Franklin, once wrote "People who would sacrifice liberty for security
deserve neither"

And to the poster who said that the people of the United States voted him into office, I invite you to go read the article "Was the 2004 Election Stolen?" by Robert F. Kennedy Jr., before making that emphatic statement.

For all it's posturing about preventing stolen elections and Democratic voting process, the United States is the only country on the planet which is considering going to an electronic voting system.  Additionally, powerful elements of the Republican party have fought long and hard to prevent a paper trail of how a
person voted.

Just me, could be wrong, but there you go.

Sinergy



Sinergy -> RE: Thinking *BIG* (10/6/2006 6:30:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

folks on the west coast will protest ANYTHING.

no one really even looks. if someone protests in my neck of teh woods. people look.


A person walking up to a cow will scare them away.  Despite the fact that a cow is 10 times as large as a person is.  Many theories are proposed for this, including binocular vision (eyes in front of the head) making the cow think one is a predator. 

A person on a horse walking up to a cow is hardly noticed.  The cow sees something that doesnt look overly different than it is (4 legs, big) and simply chews its cud placidly.

I tend to think this is more due to the fact that a cow has a very limited intelligence and frame of reference for things which are out of the ordinary in it's limited experience.  From the standpoint of natural selection, people have not been predators of cows for very long on the evolutionary chain.

Might be that a lot of people on the West Coast are unwilling to just sit around and chew our cud and wait for somebody to protest something so they can placidly watch and go home unaffected by the ideas the protestors are trying to express. 

Just me, could be wrong, but there you go.

Sinergy



NorthernGent -> RE: Thinking *BIG* (10/7/2006 4:04:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

No, I don't think I missed anything.  You assert ,""However, let's move beyond the notion that freedom is anything more than Government propaganda."   .  I challenge that, and you want to change the subject.  Do you really think that?  That freedom is nothing but Gov propaganda?  I would not try to argue that England( or any nation) is Pure, but there was a real difference between the Nazis and the Brits.  Do you disagree?  As to your off point questions, I think the behavior in Victory of Britian speaks volumes.  Granting freedom to the continent of Europe and starting a process of decolonization around the globe.  England is not perfect, but they also didn't shoot Ghandi in the head the first time he spoke out.   As to the second, you are jumping from specifics( 20 individuals) to generalities( german nationalistic tendancies).  Radical Pan Islam has been gearing up for war with the west for over 20 years, that involved conditioning the attackers of 911 from childhood.  Right or Wrong,  the policy is to try to prevent a much larger war from occuring later.  An analogy would have been stopping Hitler when he moved on Czechoslovakia, preventing ww2 and the millions of deaths later.  Or we could have done what the Anti War movement wanted then, just surrender, and watch millions die in concentration camps for their sexuality, ethnicity or political thoughts, and hope they don't come for you.  Thats basically what the Anti War movement wanted in the Cold war also.  And today they want....?


lucky, your opinion is based on the core belief that the British Government declared war on Germany to preserve freedom. Right or wrong?

If right, I have invited you to explain why you believe this to be the case. Until you put some meat on the bones of your opinion there is no case to be answered.




NorthernGent -> RE: Thinking *BIG* (10/7/2006 4:09:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

The main thrust of what I am saying is the concept of soldiers carrying out Government orders - i.e. execution.

The fact that many wars are fought for control of resources, I agree with you

So, as you claim my analysis is too simplistic, you should have no problem explaining why. Picking at the bones of a post does not win the argument when there is a far more substantial piece of meat to get your teeth into i.e. the crux of what I am saying.


The government doesn't order executions, that would be a war crime as defined in the Geneva convention. If soldiers execute someone whether under orders or not, they are commiting a war crime. The Iraq war might be illegal (and who is to say it is or it isn't, smart arsed lawyers can't even decide that one) but as long as soldiers don't kill in cold blood they are not executing people. Most people the military have killed are combatants. I too have a big problem with "collateral damage" but to accuse the military of executing people only gives people with opposing views the opportunity to blow a raspberry.

The fact that many wars are fought for control of resources and they are politically inspired, I agree with you but there is a big difference between soldiers killing combatants and carrying out executions.


I am not talking about execution in terms of the act of execution.

I am talking about the concept of an army (any army) taking orders from a Government to bomb a place knowing full well people will die. Some people call this soldiering, others call it line of duty, I call it execution (they are executing the Government's plan to kill people on the grounds of economic exploitation).



luckydog1 -> RE: Thinking *BIG* (10/7/2006 10:38:10 AM)

Northern gent.  That would be wrong.... you brought up WW2, not me.  WW2 is not central to my point that freedom does exist and is more than just gov propaganda, though it is a good example.   I challenged one of your assertions, and you seem to be unwilling to say if you stand by it or if it was nonsense hyperbole that you added to bolster your argument.  Again you wrote ,""However, let's move beyond the notion that freedom is anything more than Government propaganda."  Do you actually believe that or Not?   That is my point.  My argument is that freedom does exist( it is not just Government Propaganda), hence your argument is based on a nonsense assertion, and hence not valid.    Why do you try to change the subject instead of answering? Its a yes or no, do you stand by your earlier statement (quoted above in bold font) or Not.  Please, give me a direct answer, then ask me anything you like.  Now as to WW2,  I am sure there were many reasons that England declared war on Germany, and some of them were pretty selfish for the rich/elite.  Yet for millions of people aropund the globe, including Germany, the result was freedom because of the victory of the Allies.  Or do you pretend that an Axis victory would have been just fine?  That living in a totalitarian society where you and I would be executed for our deviant sexuality wouldn't matter?



NorthernGent -> RE: Thinking *BIG* (10/7/2006 10:49:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Northern gent.  That would be wrong.... you brought up WW2, not me.  WW2 is not central to my point that freedom does exist and is more than just gov propaganda, though it is a good example.   I challenged one of your assertions, and you seem to be unwilling to say if you stand by it or if it was nonsense hyperbole that you added to bolster your argument.  Again you wrote ,""However, let's move beyond the notion that freedom is anything more than Government propaganda."  Do you actually believe that or Not?   That is my point.  My argument is that freedom does exist( it is not just Government Propaganda), hence your argument is based on a nonsense assertion, and hence not valid.    Why do you try to change the subject instead of answering? Its a yes or no, do you stand by your earlier statement (quoted above in bold font) or Not.  Please, give me a direct answer, then ask me anything you like.  Now as to WW2,  I am sure there were many reasons that England declared war on Germany, and some of them were pretty selfish for the rich/elite.  Yet for millions of people aropund the globe, including Germany, the result was freedom because of the victory of the Allies.  Or do you pretend that an Axis victory would have been just fine?  That living in a totalitarian society where you and I would be executed for our deviant sexuality wouldn't matter?


No one is avoiding questions.

You are adamant that Governments send people to wars to preserve freedom. I disagree with you. As you were challenging my point of view you need to provide something more substantial than you have done so far to expect me to respond to your challenge.

You provided Britian as an example in an earlier post. If it is such a rock solid example then explain what makes you think Britain was fighting for freedom.

In particular, the thread was concerned with the US Government and Iraq and Afghanistan do not, and never did, pose a threat to the US.



NorthernGent -> RE: Thinking *BIG* (10/7/2006 10:55:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

That living in a totalitarian society where you and I would be executed for our deviant sexuality wouldn't matter?


Just caught this bit. Speak for yourself. I'm just a red-blooded male going about my business. Head down, nose clean etc



RiotGirl -> RE: Thinking *BIG* (10/7/2006 11:50:29 AM)

See now, i can always count on my home town



RiotGirl -> RE: Thinking *BIG* (10/7/2006 12:03:44 PM)

Yeah Sinergy, i agree with yer West Coast Statement

And on the war.  I think the majority of people are nuts in their opionons, so i generally refuse to read them.  BUT i will state how i feel.

Whether its right or wrong to be there, who cares.  WHAT country makes its decisions on "whats right"  Um they dont.  Get over it!

As for our soldiers caught in the middle of all of it.  Dur, talk shit about em and it does piss me off.  Support your damn troops dim wits.  They are atleast doing what is "right".  Whether they believe it or not.  Its a war, they are fighting.  That is the right thing to do, not sit back and bitch.  Anyone who bitches about them, is doing what is wrong and making some soldeirs doubt themselves.  Doubting ones self on a battlefield is a grave mistake. 

As far as "oh no lets not fight a war"  Check out history.  It happens.  One BIG country decides they want to beat up another country and wala war.  We're BIGGER that gives us the fucking right.  Law of the Jungle.  Yes the world is a jungle and if We dont go around kicking little arses, then THEY'll think they can kick ours.  Only the strongest surive and you dont get to be the strongest by being a pussy.

As far as "those poor ppl over in the middle east"  For fucks sake, they cut off our heads with blades that arent even sharp enough.  Which if you ask me is wholly fucked up.  For fucks sake, if yer gonna be head some one at least have the decency to use a blade that'll go through in one swoop. 

War is war - they're gonna do fucked up things, we're gonna do fucked up things.  Hell, people are ALWAYS doing fucked up things.  Why is anyone so naive to think countries, politicians, soldiers, presidents, ect are any different? 

Everything about it - is human.  War is human, politics are human.. so we get human results and human actions.  Ummmm fucking duh?  Dur.. and humans fuck up all the time..

Politics are grown up sandboxes and well if ppl want to play in a sandbox so be it.  I personally grew out of them ages ago.  Doesnt bother me, what bothers me is when they're playing in the sandbox and they get mad cos some one through some dirt they didnt like.

So Politics is a way for grown ups to be immature.

and Bush is leaving soon.. so get over it.. and guess what!!!  We'll have a NEW president everyone can bitch about.  So atleast it'll be some new bitching = )



luckydog1 -> RE: Thinking *BIG* (10/7/2006 5:57:49 PM)

So your not going to answer?  Is freedom simply "gov Propaganda" or not?  I am asking if you stand by what you posted.  You made the assertion as part of your argument.  Obviously you realise it was nonsense, that is why you won't answer.  Also, I never asserted all wars are fought to defend freedom, why are you making that up?  And as I said before, the behavior in Victory by the UK speaks volumes as to what they were fighting for, and of course it was not 100% pure.  Compare that to how the Nazis or Japanese treated occupied areas, and compare it to the behavior of the USSR in victory in the same war. 

Also BDSM is still considered a mental disorder, untill the mid 90s it was considered a serious one, and a peversion, and in Nazi Europe you would have gone to your death right along with the homosexualls. Your profile says you are a Dom looking for real life encounters; that you can openly advertise that on the web, as well as openly disseminate anti Gov views are examples of the freedom you have because of soldiers willing to fight in the past.

"Speak for yourself. I'm just a red-blooded male going about my business."  Is that dry English sarcasm calling me a Homosexuall?  That you have to resort to homophobic insults is kind of sad.  All I want to know is if you stand by your own postings...




NorthernGent -> RE: Thinking *BIG* (10/8/2006 1:29:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

So your not going to answer?  Is freedom simply "gov Propaganda" or not?  I am asking if you stand by what you posted.  You made the assertion as part of your argument.  Obviously you realise it was nonsense, that is why you won't answer.  Also, I never asserted all wars are fought to defend freedom, why are you making that up?  And as I said before, the behavior in Victory by the UK speaks volumes as to what they were fighting for, and of course it was not 100% pure.  Compare that to how the Nazis or Japanese treated occupied areas, and compare it to the behavior of the USSR in victory in the same war. 

Also BDSM is still considered a mental disorder, untill the mid 90s it was considered a serious one, and a peversion, and in Nazi Europe you would have gone to your death right along with the homosexualls. Your profile says you are a Dom looking for real life encounters; that you can openly advertise that on the web, as well as openly disseminate anti Gov views are examples of the freedom you have because of soldiers willing to fight in the past.

"Speak for yourself. I'm just a red-blooded male going about my business."  Is that dry English sarcasm calling me a Homosexuall?  That you have to resort to homophobic insults is kind of sad.  All I want to know is if you stand by your own postings...




lucky, this is like a slow, painful death.

My opinion on the freedom notion is there for you to see in black and white. Help yourself to it. If you don't agree then explain why instead of going around the houses.

The BDSM/Nazi Europe comment, perhaps not. Hitler was very much the submissive and liked his niece to piss all over him among other things.

On the homosexual/homophobic comment, no, you are being paranoid and give us some credit - we have far more to our humour repertoire than not so hilariously calling people gay.








luckydog1 -> RE: Thinking *BIG* (10/8/2006 1:48:10 PM)

A slow painfull death?  So you honestly think there are no differences in the degrees of freedom in different political systems?   How utterly ignorant.  In America being a "red blooded Male" means being a hetrosexuall, is it different in Britian?   I serioulsy doubt it.  I love the way your argument works, ie that Hitler would not have gone after you, because your red blooded( not gay), just the others , so living in Nazi occupied lands was just the same and just as free.  It is highly likley that Hitler was part Jewish also, yet he killed Jews simply for being Jewish, not thier actions.  I have given numerous examples of differences in freedom in differing systems, you are the one who has not responded in anyway.  But here are some more.  In China people can be arrested for posting criticism of the gov on the web.   In most of the world there is heavy censorship of all media, not just child porn and a few exceptions as in the west.  Many nations refuse to allow people to travel or even communicate with others outside thier borders.  Right up to the last days of the USSR authors and artists were arrested and thier works destroyed.    I could go on and on, but you know all that, you are just pretending you do not, so it would really be a waste of time.

You came into this thread and made 2 ridiculous assertions, namely that America has never been threatened and that Freedom is nothing but Gov propaganda.  Both of which are nonsense, hence your argument was baseless.  I asked you several time to defend or even acknowledge your assertion about freedom, yet you continue to refuse.  I will conclude you know you can not.  Feel free to prove me wrong, by defending your assertion...



NorthernGent -> RE: Thinking *BIG* (10/8/2006 2:09:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

A slow painfull death?  So you honestly think there are no differences in the degrees of freedom in different political systems? 

What do different poltical systems and relative freedom have to do with the US Government using the notion of fighting for freedom as a propaganda tool? You need to explain why you making this connection and using it to argue against the point I'm making.
 
How utterly ignorant.  In America being a "red blooded Male" means being a hetrosexuall, is it different in Britian?   I serioulsy doubt it.  I love the way your argument works, ie that Hitler would not have gone after you, because your red blooded( not gay), just the others , so living in Nazi occupied lands was just the same and just as free.  It is highly likley that Hitler was part Jewish also, yet he killed Jews simply for being Jewish, not thier actions. 

The above makes absolutely no sense to me. I've already stated that I am not and never have been homophobic. If you refuse to accept this then that's your call.

I have given numerous examples of differences in freedom in differing systems, you are the one who has not responded in anyway.  But here are some more.  In China people can be arrested for posting criticism of the gov on the web.   In most of the world there is heavy censorship of all media, not just child porn and a few exceptions as in the west.  Many nations refuse to allow people to travel or even communicate with others outside thier borders.  Right up to the last days of the USSR authors and artists were arrested and thier works destroyed.    I could go on and on, but you know all that, you are just pretending you do not, so it would really be a waste of time.

It is no major revelation to point out that Governments all over the world abuse their position and restrict civil liberties. Again, what is the connection between this statement and my statement that the US Government uses the notion of fighting for freedom as a propaganda tool? You are not in any way, shape or form contradicting my statement. In fact, if you weren't replying to my quotes I genuinely wouldn't know that we are talking on the same subject. The only conclusion I can draw is you either haven't read my posts correctly or you are misunderstanding what I am saying.

You came into this thread and made 2 ridiculous assertions, namely that America has never been threatened and that Freedom is nothing but Gov propaganda.  Both of which are nonsense, hence your argument was baseless.  I asked you several time to defend or even acknowledge your assertion about freedom, yet you continue to refuse.  I will conclude you know you can not.  Feel free to prove me wrong, by defending your assertion...

You will find I have stated my position and had a conversation with neterfari which clearly spells it out. lucky, there is no case to answer from you because while I'm talking about the notion of freedom as a propaganda tool you're talking about relative freedom and restriction of civil liberties. These are two entirely different topics.






nefertari -> RE: Thinking *BIG* (10/8/2006 9:23:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: nefertari

[
You did skip a chapter.  NorthernGent stated that America has never been and never will be threatened and I educated him. 


You are taking a single event and using it as the basis for your argument that your freedom is threatened (thus justifying signing up for the army).

It is the exception to the rule. Are you saying that because of what happened in 1941 today's soldiers are justified in perceiving a threat to the US, signing up in large numbers and then killing people in their hundreds of thousands?


I am not taking that event and tying it to anything relevant to what is going on today.  You are putting words in my mouth.  To reiterate, it was in response to your comment that we've never been attacked.

This has been like talking to a 5 year old.  Instead of reading what I have written, you take one or two lines and then use them out of context.  People do that when they are trying to win an arugment and can't do so on its merits alone.  I'm not trying to win any argument.  My only interest in this entire OP has been to take care of our troops.  You are the one that has taken almost everything I have stated out of context.

You're arrogance disgusts me. 



nefertari -> RE: Thinking *BIG* (10/8/2006 9:29:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy



Hello NorthernGent, A/all.

I completely agree with this statement.  One of our founding fathers, I believe Benjamin Franklin, once wrote "People who would sacrifice liberty for security
deserve neither"

And to the poster who said that the people of the United States voted him into office, I invite you to go read the article "Was the 2004 Election Stolen?" by Robert F. Kennedy Jr., before making that emphatic statement.

For all it's posturing about preventing stolen elections and Democratic voting process, the United States is the only country on the planet which is considering going to an electronic voting system.  Additionally, powerful elements of the Republican party have fought long and hard to prevent a paper trail of how a
person voted.

Just me, could be wrong, but there you go.

Sinergy


It was Ben Frankling that said that.  And it was I that said our people voted Junior into office.  I personally believe that our election was stolen.  The Columbus Dispatch (which endorsed Bush, btw) reported a voting precinct here in Franklin County, Ohio that reported several thousand votes for Bush when only 600+ people voted there.  The GAO reports voting irregularity. 

However, the majority of people in this country are not crying fraud.  Until they do, these same people are responsible for allowing those in office to remain.  So I stand by my comment that the people of the US voted Bush into office.   At the very least, they are allowing him to remain there by sticking their heads in the sand.



Sinergy -> RE: Thinking *BIG* (10/8/2006 9:42:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RiotGirl

Yeah Sinergy, i agree with yer West Coast Statement




Thank you, RiotGirl.



As far as "those poor ppl over in the middle east"  For fucks sake, they cut off our heads with blades that arent even sharp enough.  Which if you ask me is wholly fucked up.  For fucks sake, if yer gonna be head some one at least have the decency to use a blade that'll go through in one swoop. 



The guillotine in France was invented by  Mssr Guillotine because axe executions tended to botch the job and leave the person in hellish pain for the few seconds it took to wind up for another swing.

quote:



and Bush is leaving soon.. so get over it.. and guess what!!!  We'll have a NEW president everyone can bitch about.  So atleast it'll be some new bitching = )



I suspect in the next six months to a year, Monkeyboy and his ilk will come out with some weird idea that a War President should be allowed to stay in office to finish the war.

Then they will try to push through a constitutional amendment to make that happen.

If you honestly believe that Monkeyboy will politely step down at the end of his term, I suggest you put your therapist on hazard pay.

Just me, could be wrong, but there you go.

Sinergy



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