quote:

ORIGINAL: trannysub007

"Bonuses paid on arrival for serving extra dangerous duty without appropriate equipment. Across the board increases for spending on psychological and medical treatment to assimilate our men and women back into their normal lives. They should also get the same percentage of pay raises that congress gave itself the last time around, retroactive for the year starting on 1 January 2006."
 
Chaingang, OP
 
   As long as it's all paid in full by Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld, Sounds great to me. 

david

quote:

ORIGINAL: nefertari

quote:

ORIGINAL: trannysub007

"Bonuses paid on arrival for serving extra dangerous duty without appropriate equipment. Across the board increases for spending on psychological and medical treatment to assimilate our men and women back into their normal lives. They should also get the same percentage of pay raises that congress gave itself the last time around, retroactive for the year starting on 1 January 2006."
 
Chaingang, OP
 
   As long as it's all paid in full by Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld, Sounds great to me. 

david

Nope, you don't get to get out of it.  Bush is in office because he was elected.  Like it or not, the people of this country put him in office.  He then sent our troops to Iraq.  These same troops that would die for your freedom.  You have as much responsibilty to these troops as Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld, as does every other American.

You don't have to like the current administration or the war, as I vehemently don't, in order to feel responsibility for the men and women in our military.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: nefertari

quote:

ORIGINAL: trannysub007

"Bonuses paid on arrival for serving extra dangerous duty without appropriate equipment. Across the board increases for spending on psychological and medical treatment to assimilate our men and women back into their normal lives. They should also get the same percentage of pay raises that congress gave itself the last time around, retroactive for the year starting on 1 January 2006."
 
Chaingang, OP
 
   As long as it's all paid in full by Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld, Sounds great to me. 

david

Nope, you don't get to get out of it.  Bush is in office because he was elected.  Like it or not, the people of this country put him in office.  He then sent our troops to Iraq.  These same troops that would die for your freedom.  You have as much responsibilty to these troops as Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld, as does every other American.

You don't have to like the current administration or the war, as I vehemently don't, in order to feel responsibility for the men and women in our military.

The glaring misconception in you post is the claim they are dying for your freedom. They are not, there is no threat to the US. They are killing people on the orders of your Government (in other words, they are executioners).

I have symapthy for them for a different reason - sympathy for the ones who in 10 years time look back and realise they have prostituted their spirit for the sake of a weeks pay - I can't believe they will be able to erase this from their conscience.

quote:

ORIGINAL: nefertari

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: nefertari

quote:

ORIGINAL: trannysub007

"Bonuses paid on arrival for serving extra dangerous duty without appropriate equipment. Across the board increases for spending on psychological and medical treatment to assimilate our men and women back into their normal lives. They should also get the same percentage of pay raises that congress gave itself the last time around, retroactive for the year starting on 1 January 2006."
 
Chaingang, OP
 
   As long as it's all paid in full by Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld, Sounds great to me. 

david

Nope, you don't get to get out of it.  Bush is in office because he was elected.  Like it or not, the people of this country put him in office.  He then sent our troops to Iraq.  These same troops that would die for your freedom.  You have as much responsibilty to these troops as Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld, as does every other American.

You don't have to like the current administration or the war, as I vehemently don't, in order to feel responsibility for the men and women in our military.

The glaring misconception in you post is the claim they are dying for your freedom. They are not, there is no threat to the US. They are killing people on the orders of your Government (in other words, they are executioners).

I have symapthy for them for a different reason - sympathy for the ones who in 10 years time look back and realise they have prostituted their spirit for the sake of a weeks pay - I can't believe they will be able to erase this from their conscience.

The glaring misconception was in your reading comprehension.  I didn't say they are dying for our freedom.  I said that they would.   They swear to protect our Constitution.  Our freedom.  If we were under attack these same troops that are currently in Iraq would put their lives on the line for us.  I have no doubt about that.

I take offense to you calling our troops executioners.  I agree that we have no business in Iraq.  However, they are there and are under attacks from insurgents and do have to protect themselves.  Oh, and your government had a part in this, too.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent


You're misunderstanding me. I no exactly what part the British Government have had in this. My post is not intended to generate into a tit-for-tat my Government is better than yours scenario.

Your comment that they'd die for your freedom is not relevant here because your freedom is not, never has been and never will be under threat from another country. The only threat to your freedom is your Government that is currently embarking on a programme to limit your civil liberties. The whole freedom line is simply intended to con people into thinking war is a just cause.

In terms of the executioners comment, like it or not they are executioners carrying out Government orders. Willing or unwilling executioners? It's open to debate. I imagine there is a significant proportion of the army who are wondering what they are doing there.

Take the meat off the bones and think of it like this - the Government creates the foundations for a large army, they send them somewhere to kill people, the public support this. Take the politics and the packaging away and this is exactly what we have.

quote:

You know, I have a two political wishes of my own in this area:

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ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger

quote:

You know, I have a two political wishes of my own in this area:

I have but one political wish.... but it's a little bit more complicated than your two.

I'd like to round up every single globalist-- in this country who is part of the power structure-- and vanquish them to streets of Karachi during an anti-west rally, letting them fend for themselves.




- R

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

In terms of the executioners comment, like it or not they are executioners carrying out Government orders. Willing or unwilling executioners? It's open to debate. I imagine there is a significant proportion of the army who are wondering what they are doing there.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaingang

Let's just bring them home and take care of them for once. The U.S. has a very bad record in terms of how we have treated vets in the past and I don't want that repeated. So fine, maybe they aren't heroes - but they aren't the criminals giving the orders either. Ultimately, I think I see them as victims of a kind - not unlike gladiators in the modern arena of war. There is no shame in fighting for your own life when the options are few or zero.

It's a very tough issue for those of us against the war. I would prefer to err on the side of generosity.

quote:

ORIGINAL: nefertari


So I guess Pearl Harbor wasn't an attack on our country then.  Just a myth?  How about 9/11?  Do you have any idea how many people signed up for military service immediately following 9/11?  There was an extraordinary influx in military recruits.  These people signed up because they wanted to protect our country.  Our lives.  Our liberties. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: nefertari

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent


You're misunderstanding me. I no exactly what part the British Government have had in this. My post is not intended to generate into a tit-for-tat my Government is better than yours scenario.

Your comment that they'd die for your freedom is not relevant here because your freedom is not, never has been and never will be under threat from another country. The only threat to your freedom is your Government that is currently embarking on a programme to limit your civil liberties. The whole freedom line is simply intended to con people into thinking war is a just cause.

In terms of the executioners comment, like it or not they are executioners carrying out Government orders. Willing or unwilling executioners? It's open to debate. I imagine there is a significant proportion of the army who are wondering what they are doing there.

Take the meat off the bones and think of it like this - the Government creates the foundations for a large army, they send them somewhere to kill people, the public support this. Take the politics and the packaging away and this is exactly what we have.

So I guess Pearl Harbor wasn't an attack on our country then.  Just a myth? 

Yes, of course it was an attack. However, it was an attack in the age of serious imperialism where there were countries across the globe who wanted a slice of the pie. The world has moved on since then and this was/is an isolated incident as opposed to a general trend of attacks on the US i.e. as it is the exception to the rule then it should not be used as a means of insecurity.

How about 9/11? 

Iraq has nothing to do with what happened in New York. The 20 men were North Africans and Saudis. Where does Iraq come into this?
 
Do you have any idea how many people signed up for military service immediately following 9/11?  There was an extraordinary influx in military recruits.  These people signed up because they wanted to protect our country.  Our lives.  Our liberties.  Call it what you will.  I know without a doubt that if we were under attack these people would do whatever it took to protect us.  That in and of itself demands our respect.  Our government has put them into an impossible situation.  I absolutely refuse to slander them further.

See my view in an earlier post. If you're not for analysing it and prefer to stay in the comfort zone of emotion-driven thought then let's agree to disagree.

Yes, our government is and has been attacking our civil liberties since Junior took office.  That he was reelected absolutely floored me.  That so many Americans support the erosion of our liberties in the name of national security proves both the effectiveness of our governments propaganda and fear mongering,  as well as the ignornace of many of our citizens.

True, and both of our Governments are making us the most despised people on the planet right now and who can blame them - after all, we elect them.

In case you've missed, it's kill or be killed daily in Iraq.  The insurgents are killing their own people.  The Shiites are killing the Sunni's and vice versa.  It's not exactly cordial there.

Not relevant to what we are discussing because the descent into chaos began around the time the US and British armies turned up on their doorstep.

I suppose when you aren't losing the number of troops to death in Iraq and Afghanistand that we are it's quite easy to sit back and judge them and call them executioners.  How many friends have you lost to this insane war?

Indirectly, this logic allows the Government to get away with this. When we start viewing armies for what they really are then it is plausible that we will do something about this madness.
 
To add an emotional point of my own, I wonder how the families of the hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians who have died are thinking about this? I doubt they see US and British troops as merely caught up in a mess.

By the way, the majority of Americans do NOT support the war in Iraq.  Many of those that did initially (being fed the lies and fear by Junior and his boys), have since seen the light.

I never said different. I can add, based on mori opinion polls, the numbers who have supported this illegal invasion are not too dissimilar on both sides of the atlantic. 47% in the US, 46% in the UK at the end of 2005.

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

In terms of the executioners comment, like it or not they are executioners carrying out Government orders. Willing or unwilling executioners? It's open to debate. I imagine there is a significant proportion of the army who are wondering what they are doing there.

Soldiers are put in an impossible position. Under the Geneva convention, following orders can lead to them being accused of a war crime. Not following orders can lead them to being prosecuted by their own government. I have sympathy for soldiers because they can lose which ever way they jump. However, I don't have any sympathy for the politicians that send soldiers to fight in an illegal war and I think it is high time the west genuinely prosecuted politicians for war crimes. Instead we are fed with the show trial of Saddam who we know has no chance of being found innocent.

I totally resent how western politicians hide behind democracy when it comes to war crimes. If I was dictator for a day I would put the whole damn lot of the legislators on trial for putting their careers before the welfare of their troops and the people of the country where they sent their troops. Only by putting politicians on trial will we put a stop to such adventurism that we see now.