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RE: Thoughts On Organized Religion. - 10/6/2006 8:41:51 PM

pinkee

Posts: 487
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

I looked it up in the Bible. Low and behold, in Piety 1:26 it says "Thou shalt wear your very best suit or dress, go to Church in your Lexus and pretend to be someone you are not. Amen".

So I think to Myself. Does God give a damn that you drive a Cadillac to church when in reality all you can afford is a Topaz? Does God give you bonus points for wearing your best suit when that money could have fed your kids for two weeks? Does that give you an express lane to Heaven or something? Maybe God cares that you make an extra effort to show that you are putting something in the collection plate. Do you have to eat a cracker and drink grape juice in order to get on God's good side? Maybe the congregation has to sound like the Mormon Tabernacle Choir in order to get God to visit.

It is all a facade. A giant crock of shit. Church has become a show. An exercise in piety. A demonstration of "superior" morals. Mass mind control. It has become some sort of effort, as though you are not going to Heaven if you do not drag your ass out of bed every Sunday morning. It used to be a fellowship of believers. Now it is just a joke.

"Where two or three are gathered together..." Notice he never specifies where.

i remember when women were required to wear hats to Mass, and it was not socially acceptable to attend in anything but one's "Sunday best". Like many artifacts of the past, i sometimes miss the civility and dressing up that went on.

Now, i do not even own a hat. i attend Mass in jeans and a tee shirt, and have never been made to feel out-of-place by anyone. i put a small amount in the collection plate, and have never been made to feel badly about not giving more. i drive my 1995 Buick to Mass, with bumper stickers that are not Catholic dogma, and have never been in the least bothered by anyone in the parking lot.

i understand some people have had bad experiences in Church, but i have not. i just wanted to say, mistreatment of parishoners is not all-pervasive and is certainly not a valid reason to insult/dismiss/ridicle my beleifs and behavior.

pinkee

(in reply to SirKenin)

Post #: 21

RE: Thoughts On Organized Religion. - 10/6/2006 9:25:42 PM

WhipTheHip

Posts: 1004
Joined: 7/31/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkee

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip

Most humans need organized religion. Unfortunately, most
organized religions are based on a back of lies and religious
dogma.

Once again, i respectfully ask that posters W/who dislike/hate/don't understand organised religion take a breath and remember that T/their words may be insulting to T/those of U/us who are members/believers/in need.

pinkee

I don't dislike organized religion. I certainly don't hate it. I ought to understand it, I studied it long enough, and was a fundamentalist long enough. I am trying to start a new organized relgion. One based on the actual teaching of Jesus: loving-kindness, empathy, understanding, patience, tolerance, forgiveness, helping people and animals, treating others how you would want to be treated if you were in their shoes with their traits, needs, advantages and disadvantages, and no dogma and no rituals--nothing more, nothing less. Every religion without God, without Heaven, without Hell, without the supernatural.

Cheers,
Michael from N. Miami Beach

_____________________________

(in reply to pinkee)

Post #: 22

RE: Thoughts On Organized Religion. - 10/6/2006 9:49:04 PM

Lordandmaster

Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
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One of the basic theological points of Methodism is that going to Church has nothing to do with going to Heaven.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JerseyKrissi72

I am a Methodist myself and attend church when I can which isn't every week and even sometimes only once a month..Alot of people like to pass judgement as if I HAVE to be in church every week to go to Heaven.

(in reply to JerseyKrissi72)

Post #: 23

RE: Thoughts On Organized Religion. - 10/6/2006 10:00:12 PM

felineone

Posts: 92
Joined: 6/24/2004
Status: offline

whew.. discussing religion.. that's usually a hard limit

but I'll jump right in..lol. As far as dress goes, i believe, and was taught this growing up.. that church was symbolically God's House, and as a sign of respect, we should wear and look our best. Whatever that persons best may be. basically, make the effort to do what you can. clean, etc. Homeless people may not have access to showers etc. If they can make the effort to show up at church, I believe that the congregation should be supportive and helpful, and welcoming.
think about how much thought and planning one puts into an outfit for a special occasion? a dinner out? Shouldn't one offer at least this much effort to go church?
yes, of course God doesn't care what we wear, and yes sandals and robes were the fashion in biblical times.
I think it goes to mindset, rather than appearance. Just as preforming a service as a submissive can be accomplished quickly and efficiently with little thought or preperation..it can be done better with proper thought and preparation beforehand.
jmho
~feline~

(in reply to SirKenin)

Post #: 24

RE: Thoughts On Organized Religion. - 10/6/2006 10:02:52 PM

felineone

Posts: 92
Joined: 6/24/2004
Status: offline

grr.. tried to delet this...

< Message edited by felineone -- 10/6/2006 10:05:30 PM >

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 25

RE: Thoughts On Organized Religion. - 10/6/2006 10:04:37 PM

felineone

Posts: 92
Joined: 6/24/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

One of the basic theological points of Methodism is that going to Church has nothing to do with going to Heaven.

Exactly!!!!

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 26

RE: Thoughts On Organized Religion. - 10/6/2006 10:08:53 PM

PrimitiveLogic

Posts: 145
Joined: 4/25/2006
From: Md.
Status: offline

I was brought up in an environment of of Catholic, Lutheran and Methodist services...Mom's , Dad's and Grandfather's denoninations. I was able to listen and see how each aspect approched service as well as self concept. I saw I had no need for Catholic guilt...I felt that WASP doing good deeds was at least a productive force, and still didn't get what made Methodist's not embrace leisure time activities.
From that mozaic background, I was able to absorb other religious teachings on a dispassionate level.
A close friend who converted to baptist shocked us by saying that she could no longer come to an Episcopal church because it was the house of satan...belonging to the Eccumenical council of world churches. So...I found that no franchise worked for me. I ended up referring to myself as a Non-franchised Spiritualist. I will embrace the spiritual nature of our energy and wash myself in the beauty of this opportunity of being. MY working quote is, " Fate is what eternity places in your path; destiny is what you choose to do with that possibility." Call it karma, good deeds, golden rule, it doesn't matter...it simply is.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 27

RE: Thoughts On Organized Religion. - 10/6/2006 11:17:19 PM

SirKenin

Posts: 2994
Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkee

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

I looked it up in the Bible. Low and behold, in Piety 1:26 it says "Thou shalt wear your very best suit or dress, go to Church in your Lexus and pretend to be someone you are not. Amen".

So I think to Myself. Does God give a damn that you drive a Cadillac to church when in reality all you can afford is a Topaz? Does God give you bonus points for wearing your best suit when that money could have fed your kids for two weeks? Does that give you an express lane to Heaven or something? Maybe God cares that you make an extra effort to show that you are putting something in the collection plate. Do you have to eat a cracker and drink grape juice in order to get on God's good side? Maybe the congregation has to sound like the Mormon Tabernacle Choir in order to get God to visit.

It is all a facade. A giant crock of shit. Church has become a show. An exercise in piety. A demonstration of "superior" morals. Mass mind control. It has become some sort of effort, as though you are not going to Heaven if you do not drag your ass out of bed every Sunday morning. It used to be a fellowship of believers. Now it is just a joke.

"Where two or three are gathered together..." Notice he never specifies where.

i remember when women were required to wear hats to Mass, and it was not socially acceptable to attend in anything but one's "Sunday best". Like many artifacts of the past, i sometimes miss the civility and dressing up that went on.

Now, i do not even own a hat. i attend Mass in jeans and a tee shirt, and have never been made to feel out-of-place by anyone. i put a small amount in the collection plate, and have never been made to feel badly about not giving more. i drive my 1995 Buick to Mass, with bumper stickers that are not Catholic dogma, and have never been in the least bothered by anyone in the parking lot.

i understand some people have had bad experiences in Church, but i have not. i just wanted to say, mistreatment of parishoners is not all-pervasive and is certainly not a valid reason to insult/dismiss/ridicle my beleifs and behavior.

pinkee

See, I do not disrespect Christianity at all. I disrespect organized religion.

_____________________________

Hi. I don't care. Thanks.

Wicca: Pretending to be an ancient religion since 1956

Catholic Church: Serving up guilt since 107 AD.

(in reply to pinkee)

Post #: 28

RE: Thoughts On Organized Religion. - 10/6/2006 11:32:13 PM

seeksfemslave

Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline

I do not believe that ALL aspects of ANY religion are delusional, and I think, from the sociological point of view, belonging to a religious community benefits many people.
BUT
The idea that a divine being has any interest in human beings seems totally at odds with what we see in the world
and is therefore......most probably delusional.

(in reply to SirKenin)

Post #: 29

RE: Thoughts On Organized Religion. - 10/7/2006 12:08:28 AM

Lordandmaster

Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline

Aye, leave it to an atheist to know Christian theology like the back of his (non-intelligently designed) hand. Christian theology is very beautiful; it's just not true.

Many of y'all who think I'm just a religion basher don't realize how many years I've spent studying it seriously. I'm a lapsed seminarian, and in the old days I probably would have ended up as a bishop or something.

quote:

ORIGINAL: felineone

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

One of the basic theological points of Methodism is that going to Church has nothing to do with going to Heaven.

Exactly!!!!

(in reply to felineone)

Post #: 30

RE: Thoughts On Organized Religion. - 10/7/2006 3:17:06 AM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Limbo was never part of the catechism, it was a concept invented by lay people in the middleages, made famous in the modern era through the fame of Dante's Devine Comedy. However, it was never orthodox Catholic belief so Catholicism isn't abandoning it, just theologically disowning it.

That being said Islam, Christianity, Judeaism or whatever, are all delusional.

Regardless, it is a belief unique to the Catholic Church and it is now being abandoned. My opinion on why it is being abandoned is stated above.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 31

RE: Thoughts On Organized Religion. - 10/7/2006 3:32:37 AM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkee

i am just one of those P/pl who wants/needs/desires to belong to a recognised religion. i was born and raised as a Roman Catholic, and one of my regrets is that my long time alienation from the Church also meant i did not take my unmentionable to Religious Instruction.

i am at odds with many tenets of the Catholic Catechism, not to mention horrified by some of the Church's conduct. i am considering converting to Judaism, but need to study up on it a bit more.

pinkee

As humans we all need shared consciousness (although people will make a personal choice on how and where they find this).

The one point we can't get away from is the essence of organised religion i.e. it is a battle for hearts and minds. Thus, ultimately, it is driven by dogma and doomed to being restrictive.

On the other side of the coin, there are organised religions that hold the core belief that wealth can only be measured in morality (as opposed to materialism). We could do with some of this in our society.

My mother was considering converting to Judaism as she has serious differences of opinion with the Church of England. In the end she opted to stay well away from any church or religious doctrine and follow her own path with her faith. In my opinion, a wise choice.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to pinkee)

Post #: 32

RE: Thoughts On Organized Religion. - 10/7/2006 3:45:21 AM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Regardless, it is a belief unique to the Catholic Church and it is now being abandoned. My opinion on why it is being abandoned is stated above.

If a church or religion never changed or developed, you'd still be complaining, however the tenet isn't changing because the Catholic Church never ever believed in limbo as a concept, though many of its believers did. All the church is doing is clarifying its position.

As for your earlier mentioning that they are doing it to remain in competition with Islam, enticing people into churches is a little better way to keep people than threatening to kill them should they convert to another religion like Islam does.

I don't know why I'm arguing about this. As I said before its all delusional.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 10/7/2006 3:50:03 AM >

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 33

RE: Thoughts On Organized Religion. - 10/7/2006 3:54:18 AM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Regardless, it is a belief unique to the Catholic Church and it is now being abandoned. My opinion on why it is being abandoned is stated above.

If a church or religion never changed or developed, you'd still be complaining, however the tenant isn't changing because the Catholic Church never ever believed in limbo as a concept, though many of its believers did. All the church is doing is clarifying its position.

As for your earlier mentioning that they are doing it to remain in competition with Islam, enticing people into churches is a little better way to keep people than threatening to kill them should they convert to another religion like Islam does.

I don't know why I'm arguing about this. As I said before its all delusional.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-1897480,00.html

More importantly,

1) Why are you arguing with yourself?
2) Complaining? I'm stating my opinion. Providing it doesn't impact on my values and way of life the Catholic Church can do whatever it likes as far as I'm concerned.
3) I could name you instances of Muslims being murdered by Christians from past and present but it would be pointless because we don't want to get into a tit-for-tat discussion on the relative merits of "delusion".

< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 10/7/2006 3:56:00 AM >

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 34

RE: Thoughts On Organized Religion. - 10/7/2006 4:39:48 AM

ZenrageTheKeeper

Posts: 237
Joined: 6/26/2005
Status: offline

I am a militant atheist. I could post my reasonings on the notion of god here, but if I elaborate on my thoughts, the thread will be deleted much as the last one was.

I take great pride in being thought of as inappropriate.

_____________________________

If Men never thought with their penises, all you girls would still have cooties.

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 35

RE: Thoughts On Organized Religion. - 10/7/2006 4:54:26 AM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZenrageTheKeeper

I am a militant atheist. I could post my reasonings on the notion of god here, but if I elaborate on my thoughts, the thread will be deleted much as the last one was.

I take great pride in being thought of as inappropriate.

Out of interest, what is a militant atheist?

< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 10/7/2006 4:56:18 AM >

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to ZenrageTheKeeper)

Post #: 36

RE: Thoughts On Organized Religion. - 10/7/2006 5:40:56 AM

Chaingang

Posts: 1727
Joined: 10/24/2005
Status: offline

I am willing to believe that a certain kind of god is clearly not part of our reality. But the assertion that any god is impossible is irrational non-belief. Agnosticism is the only rational position to maintain. And in that regard, I could be considered aggressively agnostic.

_____________________________

"Everything flows, nothing stands still." (Πάντα ῥεῖ καὶ οὐδὲν μένει) - Heraclitus

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 37

RE: Thoughts On Organized Religion. - 10/7/2006 5:47:29 AM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

3) I could name you instances of Muslims being murdered by Christians from past and present but it would be pointless because we don't want to get into a tit-for-tat discussion on the relative merits of "delusion".

First your original point.

Organised religion is increasingly taking the form of big Corporate entities competing with each other for clients. The Catholic Church is abandoning the concept of limbo in a battle with Islam for hearts and minds in the developing world.

It is hard to take a belief system seriously when it changes its tune according to perceived security/insecurity.

I pointed out correctly that the Catholic church wasn't abandoning the concept of limbo because it was never part of the Catholic tenet in the first place but was a popular belief of lay people in the church.

The very idea as to the reason the Catholic church is clarifying the issue is mere conjecture. This is not something the Catholic church has just dreamed up but something that has always interested the present pope.

No one mentioned members of one religion killing another. I merely said that if the church is enticing people into the church by clarifying the Church's tenet, that is not as bad as Islam forcing people into the mosques and threatening to kill them should they leave.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 10/7/2006 5:48:08 AM >

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 38

RE: Thoughts On Organized Religion. - 10/7/2006 6:03:32 AM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline

MC, I just don't have the will to hop on your argument merry-go-round today.

However, the link I provided talks of limbo being part of the Catholic doctrine and 30 theologians drafting a new doctrine replacing the concept of limbo. Take it or leave it.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 39

RE: Thoughts On Organized Religion. - 10/7/2006 6:08:26 AM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

3) I could name you instances of Muslims being murdered by Christians from past and present but it would be pointless because we don't want to get into a tit-for-tat discussion on the relative merits of "delusion".

First your original point.

Organised religion is increasingly taking the form of big Corporate entities competing with each other for clients. The Catholic Church is abandoning the concept of limbo in a battle with Islam for hearts and minds in the developing world.

It is hard to take a belief system seriously when it changes its tune according to perceived security/insecurity.

I pointed out correctly that the Catholic church wasn't abandoning the concept of limbo because it was never part of the Catholic tenet in the first place but was a popular belief of lay people in the church.

The very idea as to the reason the Catholic church is clarifying the issue is mere conjecture. This is not something the Catholic church has just dreamed up but something that has always interested the present pope.

No one mentioned members of one religion killing another. I merely said that if the church is enticing people into the church by clarifying the Church's tenet, that is not as bad as Islam forcing people into the mosques and threatening to kill them should they leave.

Anyway, there's a far more important question awaiting you on caitlyn's thick/thin thread.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 40

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