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onestandingstill -> Civility and Incivility in the Scene (10/6/2006 6:24:12 PM)

Subject: Civility and Incivility in the Scene - (Permission given to repost.)

Civility and Incivility in the Scene:

By Chris M [Black Rose of Washington DC] and Lady Medora [New Orleans Power Exchange]

One of the most grave and inexplicable problems facing our community
in General is the continued presence of downright rudeness. It takes
many Forms: gossip, arrogance, slander, ingratitude, interpersonal
cruelty, Rumor-mongering, the propensity to snub, shun or belittle, a
refined Sensitivity to slight paired with strident disregard for how
ones actions And words effect others. It is astonishing, and terribly
sad, how poorly we Get along from the viewpoint of interpersonal
relationships. Why a Community like ours, whose members strive for
amature outlook on power, Consent and tolerance should feud with such
violence and monotonous Regularity is a true mystery.

In our community, we see behavior one would never dream grown adults
could Stoop to. We have seen SM groups who ought to get along fine,
bicker Endlessly and mindlessly. We have seen "leaders" whose mission
appears to Be the personal demolition of others whose contributions to
the community Might challenge their own. We know good people who have
left the scene Because of the cattiness, clique-mentality, and
deliberate unconsenting Meanness. This propensity, often called "Tops
disease", is by no means Limited to dominants. It is nationwide in
scope affecting virtually every Group we have visited in our travels.

It isn't hard to imagine a universe where this kind of behavior never
Occurred at all. Aggression, power and consent, to say nothing of
Etiquette, are concepts SM folk deal with all the time. The BDSM
community Has made great strides in developing and documenting a wide
variety of safe SM practices, protocols and standards for negotiation
and play. Yet, Strangely, the bickering, bitchiness and backstabbing
goes on unabated. The Last two Black Rose election cycles, have
produced virtual demolition Derbies of friendships over seemingly
trivial issues. TES went through a Similar bloodbath several years
ago, in the wake of their 25th anniversary Celebration. And many small
groups have closed, not because of legal Persecution, fiscal
mismanagement or lack of membership, but due to Jealously, power
struggles, and malicious gossip. The wounds inflicted by Incivility
exceed any damage perfumed in consensual dungeon play and the
Emotional scarring that uncivil behavior leaves on its victims lasts
longer Than any bruise.

You might guess that the worst of this behavior comes from scene
novices But you would be wrong. Beginners, usually eager to fit in and
make Friends, typically deport themselves well. The worst of this
behavior comes From people who have been in the scene for years.
People with experience, With play partners, with contacts, are often
the most judgmental, least Generous, most easily-offended, readiest to
slander others. It is strange, But over and over we have seen
seemingly friendly newcomers arrive in the Scene, become avid pupils
of our craft, grow into competent players, then Unexpectedly mutate
into arrogance, self-importance and interpersonal Ruthlessness. Many
leave the community in bitterness, anger or disgrace. The civility
question may play a role in the scene's curious lack of people
Of color, who understand discrimination and hostility when they see
it, and Feel unwelcome. It hurts our leather brethren, demolishes
friendships, Breaks the spirit of our volunteers, cripples social
groups, invites Retaliation, and weakens our claim that SM is
practiced by emotionally Healthy, well-adjusted people. Why are we
doing this? What can we do to Stop it?

THE SCOPE OF THE PROBLEM: WHAT IS INCIVILITY?

We will go straight to examples. By no means exhaustive, here are
some Categories of incivility we encounter in the scene.

The Empathy Gap: This is subtle, but actually lies behind much
uncivil Behavior. Not so much the presence of hatred or dislike, but
an absence of Empathy and kindness towards other members of our SM
community. In a better World, we would all actively welcome strangers,
extend cordiality, start up Conversations, feel a little compassion
towards others like ourselves. But, More often than not, people feel
nothing in particular towards people they Meet in the scene. This
"inner nothingness" sets the stage for much of the Uncivil behavior we
find in the scene.

Gossip: We all do it, and yes it can be loads of fun catching up on
all the Latest. Plus, gossip serves a valuable purpose when inquiring
about someone You may be interested in playing with. By scene
standards, it is not Uncivil to conduct good faith peer review while
inquiring about someone's Play style, experience, and reputation. But
gossip conducted with the Intent to harm, or passing along dubious or
inflammatory rumors is behavior That hurts the scene. In gossip, as
with other things, there must be some Sense of proportion. Gossip can
also violate the confidentiality of Individuals, possibly subjecting
them to dangerous and unnecessary risk.

Both truth and privacy are cardinal principals in the scene, and
reckless gossip damages both.

Clique Politics: To have a circle of friends is a good thing, but not
when the goal is circling the wagons to shut out people who "don't fit
in" In the same way that benign sharing of information can be
amplified into vicious, destructive gossip, maintaining cliques whose
purpose it is to weaken and ostracize others, hurts the community as
well as the individuals excluded. Ultimately, clique players make so
many enemies that they themselves are resented or unwelcome.

Sweet and Sour: A clique politics tactic: Some people make extravagant
show of how close and loving they are to their circle of friends,
hugs, smiles, introductions glowing compliments, in part too maximize
the sting inflicted against perceived outsiders, who are refused even
the time of day. A stock move among catty sorority girls during rush
week, (the Amish call this shunning) it's embarrassing to see how many
grown men and women use "sweet and sour" to isolate and hurt
individuals whose feelings and esteem they regard as unimportant. This
truly nasty habit creates "us and them" fissures, that fragment the
community, hurt feelings and invite retaliation.

Chicken Hawk Syndrome: With a constant influx of SM beginners, some
attempt to acquire play partners under the guise of "mentoring".
Chicken hawk syndrome includes strong come-ons, boastful presentation
of ones own experience and skill, sometimes in trashing other people,
sometimes attempting to isolate new people from the presence or
influence of others, all in the name of "education", or at least
active attempts to recruit them into their clique of preference. While
there is nothing wrong with expressing interest in someone (new to the
community or not) it is dishonest to couch your interest in terms of
education. For new people we advice you to take your time in choosing
exclusive mentors if you feel the need to do that at all, and ideally
to form relationships with a circle of friends and not to rely on just
one point of view.

SM Psychodrama: High volume yelling matches, absurd conspiracy
mongering, unbridled venom towards community peers...Does any of this
sound familiar? Here's a test: If such behavior would get you fired
from a professional workplace, please leave it at home.

Failure to separate role from reality: We are an imaginative bunch
(witness the number of science fiction fans, and Ren-fair enthusiasts
in our midst) and this is both good and bad. Some take the view that
the scene is a place their fantasy become reality, raising the specter
of unrealistic expectations which can infringe on safety, consent even
sanity. Someone who prides herself on being an unreasonable, demanding
bitch in scene should always watch to draw a line between what is
appropriate in scene and into daily life, even if they consider
themselves "lifestyle".

The Dom=Dickhead syndrome: While some dominants are true artists
cultivating a gourmet's appreciation of pleasure, pain and power,
others are mere peevish control queens, itchy for a chance to
criticize, get belligerent, boss others around. Still others, new to
the community (but not to Gor novels) make the classic error of
equating their sexual dominance with an overbearing, overreaching
manner dominated by virtue of their presence at a SM event. Regardless
of how dominant you are within your consenting relationships (and more
power to ya!), you can no more "assume" consent in your interactions
with others, than you can in an SM scene. Dominants who assume its
okay to boss others around, and demand subservient treatment, demanded
rudely, are making the classic newbie error of assuming its okay to
touch or grab others bodies without out asking.

The Realness Police: In which everyone assumes that your SM should
closely resemble theirs. Scoffing at scenes for being too mild, too
heavy or too.whatever. One particularly odious habit is the loudly
proclaimed belief in those great SM unicorns the "true dom" (" true
doms never bottom...being a true dom means never having to say your
sorry, etc.") or "true submissive" ("If you were a TRUE submissive you
would do X for me, let me do Y to you, take it in stride while I waltz
off and do Z.")

The Imperial-Imperious confusion: Some scenefolk, in an effort to
appear imperial (kingly, of high standard, worthy of respect) conduct
themselves in a manner that is imperious (overbearing, bossy,
judgmental). A surprising number of scene-folk begin this confusion
after a few years in the community, as they assume leadership
positions, or when they decide that it is time they were recognized as
authorities, if not superiors. While many feel that imperious behavior
demonstrates expertise, importance and intelligence, in truth it
almost never fails to alienate potential friends and play partners and
make the offender look bad.

While pecking order tactics like these are fine for beings with the
intelligence and spiritual depth of sparrows and chickens, in humans
they are shallow, unkind and run counter to the spirit of "safe sane
and consensual." Furthermore, people will not continue to support and
tolerate people who treat them badly. Even so, unwise bystanders,
occasionally reward this kind of boorishness with attention and
respect, making our collective problem worse. New people see this
behavior in community leaders and players of high prominence and
emulate it, believing it to be proper, accepted or connoting high status.

Expert-itus: (a variant of the previous point) the state of confusing
ones own expertise with the ability to pick nits, and find faults in
other people's play, demeanor, protocol, motives. While sharing scene
knowledge is generally a good thing, it can be, and often is,
overdone. Go easy on the free advice.

WHY DO WE DO IT?
In fairness, we don't want to suggest that leatherfolk are inherently
rude people. The scene, as wonderful as it can be, contains many
subtle and seldom discussed "stress factors" that contribute to
uncivil behavior. Like water over a stone, these stress factors wear
on the nerves year after year, thus setting the stage for impatience,
irritation, depression and the empathy deficit we have already discussed.

1. The scene is a small world, and quarters are close, closer than we
might like sometimes. Because BDSM is an interest that selects at
random, we often find ourselves spending a lot of time with people we
might not otherwise choose as friends.

2. The scene is an intensely intimate place, we express our inner
fantasies and fears, sometimes share partners, see each other nude,
watch each other cum...Is it any wonder people are sensitive about how
we are treated by others?

3. Because these practices are incredibly diverse, we find themselves
in the occasional presence of activities that make us uncomfortable.
The scene is a strange place and it takes a while to adjust. (And some
things you may never get used to.)

4. The pressures of closeting: The pressure of maintaining a secret
life, of hiding your leather life from friends, colleagues, and family
adds a constant overlay of tension to daily life. Scene folk have to
manage the presence of fetish contraband including toys, clothes,
literature and erotica whose discovery might be catastrophic. The
risk, real or perceived, can encompass loss of employment, of friends,
of family, even custody of ones' kids.

5. Jealousy, loneliness and competition for partners are facts of
life. People without play partners may become unhappy or angry. People
seen as getting more than their share can trigger insecurity and
resentment. Even people with partners may see threats around every corner.

6. The scene, like any fringe group, attracts its share of eccentrics
and outcasts, some fascinating and agreeable, others less so.

7. Newcomer naïveté: New people unacquainted to the scene's protocols
occasionally touch, grab or conduct themselves in an inappropriate
manner. Although individuals typically learn to deport themselves over
time, the constant influx of newcomers means newcomer naivete is a
constant, grating issue.

8. The realities of the party circuit: It is a hard fact of scene
life is that most parties are private and their invite lists finite.
For every guest invited there are twenty left outside. The guest list
is dictated by what the hosts can afford, their circle of friendships,
the size of their home and many other factors. But it still stings to
hear about a party without getting an invite. And it happens all the time.

9. EMAIL (the medium of choice for many SM participants) : Without a
friendly face or modulations of human speech, text encounters can be
easily misstated/misunders tood. Couple that with the sometimes blunt
writing style of emailers everywhere, the added gravity of the written
word and the ease of escalating a private remark into public rebuke
with a misplaced keystroke, and you've got the makings for an online
food fight.

SOME THOUGHTS ON WHAT YOU CAN DO TO FIX IT

One of the more sobering aspects of the list above, is that there
really are no easy solutions to any of these problems. The scene is
small, people are sensitive, invite lists are short, and we really do
have some truly eccentric people who will continue to behave
eccentrically.

But there is room for hope. We do a good job of establishing, and
enforcing, play standards to make SM safe and hot. We are improving
all the time as educators of play practices. But, interpersonal
conduct outside of the SM encounter itself, has not been made a
priority and its probably time it should be. We must recognize
civility (defined in part by the examples in this report) as a threat
to the health of our community, and commit ourselves as individuals,
to improving our own behavior first.

We must extend civility, decency, care and concern beyond our
personal circle to members of the community at large. This doesn't
mean we have to be everyone's bosom bud, but that concern for others
is a priority instead of the non-issue it is for many at present. We
are not talking about sainthood or communism here. The goal is not to
stand around a campfire in a ring, holding hands singing Kumbaya. But
if we all improve our behavior, and extend our compassion by ten
percent, we will be living in a completely transformed universe.

Secondly, through mentoring and our education programs, we must
elevate civility as a requirement for our leaders and citizens. While
scene etiquette (a subset of civility), is an SM staple, it deals
mainly with deportment, protocols and standards of interaction, and
doesn't address the deeper issues of cultivating compassion, tolerance
and awareness, towards our SM brethren. These are tougher
ethics-driven issues often without simple answers.

And, though vocal, it is a minority of scene-folk who do the worst of
this callous behavior. Most want a scene that is friendly and
supportive. Many are willing to work to make it so (hopefully you too
if you've read this far). And though the gossips, scolds and assholes
among us often succeed in hurting their intended targets (and
incidentally, our community), their greatest causalities are
ultimately their own reputations.

Remember that we are all brothers and sisters in a community no
matter how diverse. If we behave like we care about and support one
other, we will all find ourselves, by definition, in an environment
that is more caring and supportive.

Improved civility should presented as causal to the following
desirable conditions: stability of friendships; respect of peers;
trust of potential play partners (civility means stability);
strengthens ones personal network of contacts; supports the position
that SM is practiced by sane, well adjusted people; elevates fairness
and justice (which are eternal) as the coin of the realm as opposed to
popularity and bureaucratic clout (which are fleeting and can vanish
at any moment); strengthens the community and makes it healthier;
raises the comfort quotient for newcomers.

A PROPOSED APPROACH: EXTEND SSC INTO INTERPERSONAL RELATIONSHIPS

Strive as individuals and organizations to extend "safe, sane, and
consensual" into the arena of interpersonal conduct. So lets turn the
laser beam of SSC onto our civility concerns and see what it tells us:

Uncivil behavior is nonconsensual: Unless assured, otherwise good
manners and general kindness should be the coin of the realm. To do
less is to engage someone without their consent. Doms should restrict
their dominance to those who have consented to it. Submissives who
pester others with unsolicited subservience are likewise in violation.
And nonconsensual dominance in the name of "mentoring" doesn't wash
either. Gossips and scolds should likewise consider their behavior in
terms of consent. Subjecting someone to a tongue lashing or a gossip
campaign is really no better than drawing out a flogger and hammering
away at them without
warning.

Uncivil behavior is not safe: Cruel, thoughtless behavior can damage
hurt people, deeply, for as long time, and that cannot be called safe.
In the same way that humiliation can be more damaging than physical
pain, the emotional harm inflicted from incivility may far exceed what
you intend. Unsolicited advice can come across as cutting, and
judgmental. Incivility also sets a diminished community standard for
others to follow, making incivility more acceptable and social
environment suffers often scaring mature decent people away, and can
in time bring a group to its knees. Small acts of rudeness, or
disregard, even if only perceived as such can balloon up into clique wars.

And if the well being of your intended victim means nothing to you,
consider this: If you make trouble for people, chances are it will
come back to haunt you later on. People have a way of reciprocating
behavior. Be nice and people will be nice back. Be a jackass and
that's how others will see AND speak of you. This is a small world and
if you screw someone, you are handing them a motive to get you back
later. Even if you are queen of the in-clique at present, no one
controls the future and, over time, the leather gods have a way of
evening things out. The community is close, memory is long, and
paybacks are a bitch. For this reason alone, uncivil behavior is
unsafe to you.

Uncivil behavior is not even all that sane: For years many of us felt
we were solitary freaks before finding this community. To reinforce
feelings of rejection in our brothers and sisters by deliberately
withholding human decency, or subjecting them to deliberate hardship,
is just not defensible.

People who find themselves helpless to resist clashing with or
inflicting imperious behavior on their scene fellows, would do well to
begin some serious soul searching and perhaps seeking out the help
they need.

A lot of uncivil behavior is retaliatory. Someone does something that
hurts or offends you prompting an aggressive response. Unfortunately
this may be exactly how it looks to the person you just dissed. If you
find that your actions and behavior are building up to a feud, it is a
great idea to apologize for your part in the situation and disengage
from the conflict. Furthermore, the long term gains from uncivil
behavior are so meager, and the costs so high that it really does not
pay for people who hope to stay in the community for some time. (Even
if they win a short term victory.)

APHORISMS

Taking care of your community. Take care of its members. Agree to
disagree. You don't have to dis just because you dislike. Civility
demonstrates stability. Piss off a bigot; be nice to a leather person.
Imperious does not mean imperial. SSC is always in effect, whether or
not a scene is in progress. Resist the urge to reward slanderous
gossip with your attention and involvement - it's not consensual, and
not safe, even it's sanity is questionable. Tithe: give ten percent
more in kindness appreciation gratitude, forgiveness. Never assume
Safety. Never assume Consent. SM does not stand for Super Man - obody
is perfect and everyone makes Mistakes. Be willing to concede the
point if you have been uncivil. Being willing to fess up, and
apologize, makes you stronger, not weaker.

Always try to be the voice of sanity and reason. Incivility is
uncivil, whatever the excuse. Try to maintain perspective. Maintain a
healthy sense of humor. True wealth is the ability to give kindness.
Never forget your pleasure.
Acceptance is voluntary, tolerance is mandatory






juliaoceania -> RE: Civility and Incivility in the Scene (10/6/2006 6:33:55 PM)

I have quickly scanned this, and plan on re-reading it more thoroughly,

thank you for posting this..I think we all (especially me at times) could always learn to be more civil, and how to respond to incivility...





popeye1250 -> RE: Civility and Incivility in the Scene (10/6/2006 6:54:36 PM)

Man, that's a lot of readin.
For a minute I thought Master Lon was back again.




LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Civility and Incivility in the Scene (10/6/2006 7:21:42 PM)

People who are civil will remain so, people who are not will not be.

And trust me, both authors of that essay have loads of people in their local scene who would say that they are both extremely civil and uncivil.




juliaoceania -> RE: Civility and Incivility in the Scene (10/6/2006 7:22:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

People who are civil will remain so, people who are not will not be.

And trust me, both authors of that essay have loads of people in their local scene who would say that they are both extremely civil and uncivil.


Sometimes we teach that which we need to learn?




CrappyDom -> RE: Civility and Incivility in the Scene (10/6/2006 8:40:10 PM)

Random usage of capitals is something I find highly offensive!




Amaros -> RE: Civility and Incivility in the Scene (10/6/2006 8:53:24 PM)

quote:

The Empathy Gap: This is subtle, but actually lies behind much
uncivil Behavior. Not so much the presence of hatred or dislike, but
an absence of Empathy and kindness towards other members of our SM
community. In a better World, we would all actively welcome strangers,
extend cordiality, start up Conversations, feel a little compassion
towards others like ourselves. But, More often than not, people feel
nothing in particular towards people they Meet in the scene. This
"inner nothingness" sets the stage for much of the Uncivil behavior we
find in the scene.


Haha, I'm sorry, but when I see this I think - what do expect from sadists?

Not busting your uh... chops here, but most of the phenomona described here are common to groups in general, and no small number of people in here are here explicitly in order to be subjected to deliberate hardship.

They did manage to define some interesting group dynamics.

I would say that the vast majority of people in here strike me as exceptionally civil, there's an almost unnatural degree of comraderie and socability for an internet forum board - of course I spent my first year on the internet in an MSN political forum, and the next two on the NYT political boards, where every thread is a flame, insult and affront an art form - so perhaps I'm injured, I usually just ignore it.

Thing is, people behave differently in groups: there's a whole field of psychology devoted to it, social psychology, fascinating stuff, and the formation of hierarchies is definitely part of it, you can't escape it, true anarchy is like those rare elements that only form under extreme conditions and only last a few nanoseconds.

The other thing is, once a particular cultural pattern has been adopted, it's almost impossible to do anything about it, without conjuring the alpha effect - otherwise, it's just a matter of chipping away, and doing the best you can - contrary to picket fence philosophy, American culture is steeped in upheaval, disruption and deracination, and these things tend to coarsen social intercourse, though they also keep things from becoming static. The current generation were children in the Eighites, a very weird time to grow up, when self-centeredness was considered a virtue, conspicuous consumption amid drifting human wreckage - a surreal, coke fueled Dickensian landscape.

I read this with interest:

Regardless
of how dominant you are within your consenting relationships (and more
power to ya!), you can no more "assume" consent in your interactions
with others, than you can in an SM scene. Dominants who assume its
okay to boss others around, and demand subservient treatment, demanded
rudely, are making the classic newbie error of assuming its okay to
touch or grab others bodies without out asking.


This is pretty much men, I'm afraid, which doesn't make it right, but you do have to assert yourself - particularly a generation steeped in entitlement and raised on the internet: a general absence of social controls on the internet creates some interesting dynamics, but if extended to an unrealistic attitude perhaps shaped by overindulgance in porn could lower someones inhibitory thresholds - slap it back into them is one approach.

Not a whole lot of research at this point into how the internet influences interpersonal relationships and group behavior - I swear to god I got flamed a couple of weeks ago, this perosn just rattled off their message board shtick like they'd practised it a thousand times - although there is some research into how the media affects individual and group psychology.

It's also the ADHD generation, so lots of influences to sort out.

Anyway, I find your whole attitude kind of interesting, I'm getting a strong Gorean vibe here, I guess I'll have to read the damn things to figure out what's motivating you people. I would say off the bat that this sounds like a romantic, heroic, and ultimately doomed effort, if in fact it's based on a misaprehension of objective reality fostered by these books - pissing up a rope, in other words.

Don't fall for it, you guys are going to end up liks the Randists or the Scientologists, deluded and paranoid, "because nobody understands you", when in fact you might simply be enamoured of a second rate author with a limited grasp of the human dynamic.

I hope you didn't find that damaging, I hate to undermine peoples illusions for no good reason, they might get depressed, and that's a drag, but I think you guys take this shit too seriously..

Bawdiness and vulgarity, on the other hand, is a hoary and cherished Anglo-Saxon tradition, it won't kill you, and friction can be pretty good stuff - try reading Chaucer for a change, or Robert Nye's, Falstaff - it might give you some ammunition/ideas for getting attention and/or effecting change, fun can generate a powerful Alpha effect - at the very least it will expand your vocabulary.

I could paraphrase this entire (OP) essay thus: lighten up.




onestandingstill -> RE: Civility and Incivility in the Scene (10/6/2006 10:51:35 PM)

quote:

Anyway, I find your whole attitude kind of interesting, I'm getting a strong Gorean vibe here, I guess I'll have to read the damn things to figure out what's motivating you people. I would say off the bat that this sounds like a romantic, heroic, and ultimately doomed effort, if in fact it's based on a misaprehension of objective reality fostered by these books - pissing up a rope, in other words.

Hello Sir,
Nice to speak to you again. I'm glad to have provided some food for thought.

I actually have never met a person who practices Gor & from what I have studied about the practices of those into it these are not Gorean themes specifically.

Just like the rest of the self professed groups in life in general I think we could apply this sort of stuff in most BDSM clicks pretty generally.

I actually know Chris M from the Black Rose Community I belong in.
Black Rose accepts people and groups into the community of their population of alternate lifestylers and is not limited to one style.

I can't speak for Chris M.personally.
I have never heard him label himself as anything other than a Dominant.
He's been around a long time and is a hard working educator.
suzanne




becca333 -> RE: Civility and Incivility in the Scene (10/6/2006 11:04:46 PM)

This is certainly a well-thought-out statement, and there's a lot of truth here.  With a little editing it would apply equally well to sporting associations, charitable organisations, most workplaces, and my local church fete.

People are people.  Having something very special in common doesn't instantly and automatically make us all kin.  Since we can't change the whole human race, all we can do is change the part we control - ourselves.  We have to set standards of what kinds of behaviour we accept, make that clear, do our best to be good people, and ignore the dross.

Or, better yet, vent by making posts about them!




LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Civility and Incivility in the Scene (10/7/2006 12:04:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: onestandingstill
I can't speak for Chris M.personally.
I have never heard him label himself as anything other than a Dominant.
He's been around a long time and is a hard working educator.
suzanne


Really?  He definitely bottoms for the right person and is very open about being open to those relationship, there were even some beautiful photographs that were hanging in the Crucible at one point with him as the bottom.

He has done a lot of work for the local community, but he has as many enemies and detractors as he has supporters- as most long time well known people in the scene do.




BlkTallFullfig -> RE: Civility and Incivility in the Scene (10/7/2006 12:32:35 AM)

Thanks for posting this onestandingstill....
I enjoyed reading it, and hope everyonde reads and takes something from it, except a reason to knock it.   Lord knows we can disagree with everything and anything around these parts. [&:]  M




LordODiscipline -> RE: Civility and Incivility in the Scene (10/7/2006 7:36:15 AM)

quote:

And trust me, both authors of that essay have loads of people in their local scene who would say that they are both extremely civil and uncivil.


I was thinking similar - although I only know one of them.

~J




Amaros -> RE: Civility and Incivility in the Scene (10/7/2006 7:53:35 AM)

Well, I'm not really qualified to comment on any scene dynamics, I do know that group dynamics improve when tolerance is part of the culture - there are practices that give me pause, it's really about the dynamic between the individuals involved - branding for instance, about which there is a thread, might be highly desirable to some, but it might not be good if became a fad or something, so while I might not object, it's no worse than tattooing, in a general sort of way, but I'd be watching closely and asking questions.

Maybe a certain amount of time spent explaining or communicating the psychological conditions associated with a particular fantasy, if that's the right way to say it - a bit of discussion before, after or during, consensus mediation.

Generally speaking, I think that as long as people are talking and listening, there is a chance to resolve conflicts - it's when you stop doing either is when shit starts going South.

An excess of machismo, for example, is going to politicize any situation, and an excessive show of of delicate sensibility can often trigger it - you have to assert, and nip it in the bud, and this needs to be done firmly, but also shrewdly and tactfully. You can turn the tables here, since machismo itself is something ofa delicate sensibility itself, as incongruous as it sounds.

I'll tell you the secret to aggressive social control: a cornered animal is at it's most dangerous - always leave a person a dignified position to retreat to that isn't going to require some profound identity shift, it ain't gonna happen. Nobody under attack is going to pause to consider your position until they feel safe - explain your position, then humor them a little, take the pressure off. The medium is the message, aggression breeds aggression, you need to be civil to promote civility, and civility is a form of dicipline.

If they're too stubborn to take the out, or too foolish to recognize it, that's their problem.

I think the key is to mediate the internal politics - the politics needs to be all about how to persue this life and reduce conflicts with the external social dynamic (w/respect to the above): internalizing these struggles within the community is just going to be divisive.




Amaros -> RE: Civility and Incivility in the Scene (10/7/2006 9:05:23 AM)

IN order to qualify some of my statements above, there are aspects of the Gorean philosophy I find intriguing, I like the idea of pleasure slaves, but from reading Gorean threads, it seems to me that Goreans are particularly possessive, in contrast to their philosophy, if I am correct.

This BDSM in general, is a dynamic largely based on possession, centripetal and agonistic in terms of aggression, but there is also an acentric, hedonically aggressive side to human nature - again:

quote:

ORIGINAL: onestandingstill
Dominants who assume its okay to boss others around, and demand subservient treatment, demanded rudely, are making the classic newbie error of assuming its okay to touch or grab others bodies without out asking.


This is an aspect of our primate heritage, a psychological artifact from before the female of the species lost estrus - a female in heat would "present", i.e., assume the position, and be mounted by the firstest with the mostest, and might be mounted by several males in succession - gang banging, rape fantasies and so forth are examples of this artifact in action - in some groups, it's used as an  initiation rite, in others, there may be a designated freely available individual, a TOO (Target of Opportunity) for the duration, and participants might take turns in rotation assuming this role at different times, or there may be some who wish to do it all the time, nor is there any reason there cannot be more than one.

Naturally, this is going to run headlong into the machismo dynamic, some people will just never go for this, and that's their prerogotive, but this could be resolved in a diverse enough group.

Stymieing thsi dynamic on the other hand, could promote recklessness and rude behavior, i.e., transmorgify it into more openly agonistic aggression.

A rotation could only be mandatory in very close knit group, I suspect.

This allows the acentric dynamic to operate without interfering with the more possessive dynamic, although it would neccessily involve some consensus negotiation - among other things, one would be at pains to acertain and reconcile health issues, i.e., limits if any (ideally none, other than a basic restriction to hedonic aggression, depending on the wishes of the TOO), whether condoms will be used (The female condom might come in handy), etc.

It might also be a good idea if she (or he) were to be provided with a "handler" to monitor her/him if it were to happen in a large group, or seemed neccessary, to mediate any excessive aggression beyond the negotiated limits - somebody beating the crap out of her or something.




LadyHugs -> RE: Civility and Incivility in the Scene (10/7/2006 9:20:41 AM)

Dear LuckyAlbatross, onestandingstill, Ladies and Gentlemen;
 
I have known Chris M, as far back as when Black Rose met in a little church in downtown Washington, DC.  He has been a Switch and occassionally has long periods of either submission or domination.
 
And, I have to agree with LuckyAlbatross, that Chris M. has done things to create enemies and detractors, as well as having some supporters as well. 
 
Respectfully submitted,
Lady Hugs




JassWolf -> RE: Civility and Incivility in the Scene (10/7/2006 9:52:39 AM)

Locally, it seems to me that there are many who would ask for separate checks at the Last Supper.

I find the article -- though I don't know either of the authors -- commendable and full of truth for any group, ironically so in the "lifestyle."

It applies to everyone I know, certainly. Except for me and you, of course.

And now I think of it, I'm not so sure about you.

But I'm going to repost this on a local mail list as we've been discussing lots of "history" in this area lately.

JW




MsIncognito -> RE: Civility and Incivility in the Scene (10/7/2006 9:59:27 AM)

So basically what they are saying is that people are people, even in the scene. They could have said it a lot more concisely and without the random capitalization. 




kyraofMists -> RE: Civility and Incivility in the Scene (10/7/2006 10:04:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsIncognito

So basically what they are saying is that people are people, even in the scene. They could have said it a lot more concisely and without the random capitalization. 


Welcome back!!  It is nice to see you posting again. 

Kyra




MsIncognito -> RE: Civility and Incivility in the Scene (10/7/2006 10:05:25 AM)

Thanks [:)]




agirl -> RE: Civility and Incivility in the Scene (10/7/2006 12:01:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsIncognito

So basically what they are saying is that people are people, even in the scene. They could have said it a lot more concisely and without the random capitalization. 


The exact same thought I had after reading through. Isn't it just common sense that being polite aids most interaction?

agirl




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