RE: The Lying Submissive

RE: The Lying Submissive (Full Version)

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LuckyAlbatross -> RE: The Lying Submissive (10/8/2006 9:59:06 PM)
Are we including lies of omission, or not telling people things about your life? And would perhaps not telling your friends and family the true nature of your relationship, in fact perhaps even purposefully misleading them to believe you had a vanilla relationship be considered lying in this context? I value social grace- and sometimes social grace means omitting, means lying, means hiding a heck of a lot about what's going on. Lying as a concept is not something I consider completely wrong or bad. Lying as a practice is something delicately handled, but sometimes effectively and rightfully so- especially when discussing lies of omission. Someone who tried to excuse their lying or lied to ME when they are supposedly an intimate long term partner however- that's not tolerable.

juliaoceania -> RE: The Lying Submissive (10/8/2006 10:01:50 PM)
quote: All that said, I would have serious problems with a submissive who repeatedly lied to third parties. I'd wonder why she did this, why she felt the need to keep it up, and ultimately it might affect our relationship even if I did not believe she was lying to Me. Yes, I agree, hold anyone up to a microscope and they are going to be flawed and tell some untruth here or their in the littlest of ways. My Daddy teaches women they do not owe strangers the truth if it could harm them in self defense classes. Not all untruths are equal. I guess I am talking about drama filled lies. Lies to protect oneself even though they hurt others, lies like diurnal talked about, making up shit just because it made her sub feel important. I have never ceased to be amazed at the lies people tell when they think they will not or cannot be caught. They will lie about stupid outrageous things, and yet they get away with doing this even because often their friends/loved ones do not confront them about it or make them accountable for it. It is hard to confront someone that is a huge liar for no apparent reason. There is so much pressure for people to be "honorable" and have "integrity" and maintain a "reputation" within this lifestyle... and yet people are just people.. the same as they are here as they are anywhere, and some people are just... well they are just liars...I can imagine that the pressure to cover up lies of a submissive rather than dump a submissive to prevent the loss of face to others would be high, and excerbate the problem perhaps?

spanklette -> RE: The Lying Submissive (10/8/2006 10:17:23 PM)
"Social Grace" is definitely what I'm trying to master when avoiding my overly honest approach. I getting there, though! Initially, I had to learn to do it at work in order to successfully negotiate in the workplace. Now, I'm starting to work on it when I'm in a more relaxed state. I'm learning to pay more attention to what I say and whether or not it is necessary or appreciated. If we are counting lies of omission, though, I am a pro. It's when you ask for my opinion that you have to duck.[:D]

crouchingtigress -> RE: The Lying Submissive (10/8/2006 11:31:22 PM)
the sort of honesty and integrity most of seek this lifestyle out to acheive, is a praticed art, there are in fact very few places we can practice this level of integrity and transperancy, and so as with all students there will be errors. i would hope that my dominant would keep that in mind....and unlike you i myself would not expect to be dismissed for lying unless it was a character flaw i was unwilling to change.

MagiksSlave -> RE: The Lying Submissive (10/8/2006 11:35:16 PM)
Ok me and Master are very big on honesty... I wouldnt expect my Master to have anyone that would do anything as bad as lieing to anyone, now on the other hand like others have said little white lies that make life go a little smoother and save feelings and such are just fine they keep the peace and make life a little easier, the only lies me and him tell are to our parents and family about what it is we do, we cover eachother on that basis but then again he isnt gunna tell my older brother that he tied me up and beat me when I have told my brother we watched a movie!!! (LOL my brother is 6'2 250lbs and all muscle x football player!!! And oh so protective of me, Master is 5'7ish and really not all that big) but other then that we are big on honestey and ABSOLUTE honesty with eachother. I dont think anyone wants to be with a liar even if they arent the one beeing lied too, there is still a trust thing there if they lie to others how do you know they arent lieing to you. Magik's honest slave

patina -> RE: The Lying Submissive (10/9/2006 12:12:41 AM)
Everyone lies and those who say they don't are most likely lying even to themselves. I do not mean this to start a conflict or to get bashed. I am sure there are those who are able to be completely trustworthy. I know I just have not met them yet, and the ones I have met who said they never lie I can give you exact instances of when they either lie themselves or encourged others to lie. I see no wrong in the so called "white lies" to keep from hurting others or save another from being hurt. It is the outright liars and compulsive ones I refuse to deal with. These are on both sides the Dom's and the sub's and neither should accept such behavior. Patina

Mavis -> RE: The Lying Submissive (10/9/2006 1:25:48 AM)
ok, so i am brave or stupid, not sure which, but i'm going to admit to black lies. i lied to the auto insurance agent, it cost me 70 bucks more per 6 months to have a smokers policy, so no. i didn't rush to phone in when i took smoking back up. (i actually WAS a non-smoker when i got the policy, but that's been mega-years.) Oddly enuf, the only lie i ever told Master was in the same vein, i lied (ommission) when i quit smoking on His and doctors orders, but only lasted days. No, i didn't call and inform, but obviously He could hear me smoking thru the phone, and since He never asked, it was soo much more convenient to save my ass for ONe more day until He nabbed me on it or i got my courage up. It wasn't as if He wasn't already aware, Hubby had informed Him early on, and They waited to see how long it would be before i gave myself up. The reason i couldn't confess? i KNEW the day i told Him i had lied, would be the day of my release. i couldn't pick the day. i just knew what the penalty would be. Serves me right for "Knowing" what He would do. The actual penalty was worse i think, but that's a whole nuther post.

eyesopened -> RE: The Lying Submissive (10/9/2006 2:36:59 AM)
i subscribe to the idea that if one is dishonest about little things one will be dishonest about big things. now i will admit to a "don't ask don't tell" philosophy in the initial stages of getting to know you, but do not lie if asked. i think lying takes way too much effort and i'm just not that amibitious.

mons -> RE: The Lying Submissive (10/9/2006 2:41:48 AM)
julia greetings i think lying is one thing i found to be the worst thing for anyone to do. it does not matter whom is lying . but in the case of a submisssive it is a reason to release them,. the reason i have are with a submissive we are together in a realtionship that is totlally different then the vaniall one. we would share secret he would be over a time my confident and someone i would expect to trust him with my life and my words. if he were to lie as in something small like i told him go deleiver a message to a friend and he did not do it ...........................wait there is no small lie he would have to lie again to back that lie up. no no i would had to had been with him for years to even think of what i would do. cheating is lying out he goes. i can not really think of any lie i would take and just not release him i was taught by my mother a liar is not to be trusted i go by this all my life i live bye this i make sure i do not lie to anyone in my life out of this fourm nor would i lie here it is something that is wrong and would leave to more lie my mother told my sister to stop lying if she did not when something would happen no one would believe her when she told the truth and when it did happen no one believe a word she said. i say no never trust him or her again they must go mons

Nikolette -> RE: The Lying Submissive (10/9/2006 3:01:58 AM)
This is something I am currently working on with my slave. He has a habit of telling a lie to redeem himself in school or work, rather than owning up to his actions and be accountable for HIS choices. I call it a lack of integrity and it is extremely unpleasant for me. This could end up being a deal breaker for me if he persisted in this type of unacceptable behavior. Its not something that I want to be exposed to or deal with in the long term. About the only saving grace for him is that he grew up in a family that felt like lying and manipulating to get one's way was reasonable. I feel like this indicates he hasn't consciously made this choice to lower his integrity, instead its just the natural thingto do from the way his parents taught him to interact with life. So my efforts with him have been in the area of trying to show him why that is inappropriate, bad for his own sense of self esteem, and hurts our relationship (since its harder for me to believe he is going to tell me the truth if there could be unpleasant consesquences- although I still believe he does tell me the truth). We have been working on improving his accountablity, responsibility and integrity. And I must say he really is maturing into a much stronger, ethical person. I think that there are some white lies to be told here and there along the way. This usually as more to do with not honoring someone's requests for certain information. For example if someone asks me something I find to be personal I am going to either lie by omission, tell them a slightly incorrect version of the truth, or indicate I am unwilling to talk to them about whatever that is. Additionally I've lied to be more polite than my opinion was, and I've lied to save someone's feelings who really didn't need their feelings to be hurt. However I am sort of infamous in my group of friends and family for the person to go to if you want an honest answer. I try to tell the truth though in a tactful way when it applies to something that will hurt the person's feelings Q: Does this skirt look good on me.... Honest A: Not in the slightest you are too short for the style and the color makes you look actually ill... Tactful A: The coloring and cut isn't as flattering as some of the other skirts I've seen you in.

bandit25 -> RE: The Lying Submissive (10/9/2006 3:02:25 AM)
I haven't met that person either, patina. And, like you, I can deal with those "white lies". It is on both sides, tho, not just on the sub, although I know that's what julia started the post about.

Phoenixandnika -> RE: The Lying Submissive (10/9/2006 3:02:55 AM)
I agree, some lies are acceptable within society, however; I consider my personal relationships just that and I would have a hard time rebuilding trust once that was broken due to a lie. Personally, I think the lies of omission sometimes are the worst lies of all. At least within a realationship. I would rather hear the hurtful truth than have my partner "protect me" by lying via omission.

Mavis -> RE: The Lying Submissive (10/9/2006 3:12:57 AM)
ok, back from taxi-run.. so for part deux... the actual penalty? He kept me. With the knowledge that in some peoples eyes, He could forever be thought of as "that stupid Master who kept a slave that lied to Him". What i did damaged His reputation, or at least had the potential to. That's a guilt i didn't see coming. On balance, some people will probably not be so judgemental over His allowing me to "get away" with it.. while it's not talked about too much, i think there is a lot of mercy between subs and Doms that never sees the light of day because of this "reputation" issue. But still, i don't think protecting my ass was worth all that. Live and learn. Life lesson? The consequences are always worse than you might imagine, and often in realms you would NOt choose to dink with!

ExSteelAgain -> RE: The Lying Submissive (10/9/2006 3:16:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WetHotGoddess *Allowing a lie (or covering one up) sets a precedent and once it is set, it can't be undone.* Sounds right to me. The relationship has been changed forever even if you forgive. The reason so many Doms put great store in honesty and a sub not trying to deceive in any way is because it weakens the fundamental D/s concept that the sub is obedient and yours. If the sub will deceive, you are kidding yourself that the sub belongs to you. That is the crux of the matter.

bandit25 -> RE: The Lying Submissive (10/9/2006 3:19:18 AM)
Mavis, I think you're prolly right. There is a lot of mercy between Doms and subs that isn't talked about because of reputation. After all, none of us is perfect. In fact, I believe there was a thread about the "perfect" Master. With that said, no, I'm certainly not advocating lying on the part of either party. I am simply saying that, it has been my experience that EVERYONE lies or has lied...to a parent, a teacher, a boss or one's SO. Do you throw them away because of that? Well, I guess that's a decision that each of us has to make.

bandit25 -> RE: The Lying Submissive (10/9/2006 3:20:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain Sounds right to me. The relationship has been changed forever even if you forgive. The reason so many Doms put great store in honesty and a sub not trying to deceive in any way is because it weakens the fundamental D/s concept that the sub is obedient and yours. If the sub will deceive, you are kidding yourself that the sub belongs to you. That is the crux of the matter. What about the Dom who lies to the sub? Does the reverse hold true also?

ExSteelAgain -> RE: The Lying Submissive (10/9/2006 3:32:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bandit25 quote: ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain Sounds right to me. The relationship has been changed forever even if you forgive. The reason so many Doms put great store in honesty and a sub not trying to deceive in any way is because it weakens the fundamental D/s concept that the sub is obedient and yours. If the sub will deceive, you are kidding yourself that the sub belongs to you. That is the crux of the matter. What about the Dom who lies to the sub? Does the reverse hold true also? Bandit, absolutely. I was giving you my perspective. Reading back in the thread, I, also, see the philosophical question of what is a lie being touched upon. I will say it is the common sense reality of what is right between those in the relationship. You both know what is a lie and what is a social nuance.

bandit25 -> RE: The Lying Submissive (10/9/2006 3:37:11 AM)
ES: Thanks, and I love that definition..."the common sense reality of what is right between those in the relationship". Like so many things, it's how the two in the relationship define it.

DivaDuchess -> RE: The Lying Submissive (10/9/2006 3:47:11 AM)
Unless the lie is small and is done to help someone, or to protect our privacy and lifestyle ... I've dimissed slaves and subs for lying (ie: HUGE big, large, fat hairy lies for their own self gain). Call it my pesonal 'hard limit'. I make no excuses, I simply remove my collar and walk away. I've done it before and I'll do it again. Fortunately, I've not had to do that but a couple of times. But I will do it. Once a liar, always a liar.

raevyntc -> RE: The Lying Submissive (10/9/2006 4:24:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bandit25 What about the Dom who lies to the sub? Does the reverse hold true also? *Let us turn the tables in an attempt to answer Bandit's question, shall we?* What about the Dom who lies publicly or to their subbie for self aggrandizement or in order to be vindictive either in person or online? What if he goes so far as to have his submissive or other parties back him up? *Should the submissive leave the dominant for such behavior?* *Does it matter if the dominant was caught doing so?* *What if the dominant was set up in order to be caught in a lie? Does that make the lie less of an offence as it was deliberate entrapment?* Should the submissive demand their dominant to come clean or should the submissive keep backing up the dominant so they themselves do not look foolish or because they were ordered to keep it to themselves? *As a submissive would you think less of your dominant for this behavior?*

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