What is considered "outside" BDSM? (Full Version)

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WhiteRadiance -> What is considered "outside" BDSM? (10/9/2006 8:01:45 PM)

This is a companion thread to the last one I posted about what is considered sick.
 
My curiosity lies as to what can a Dominant request of a sub- that is "outside" of the realm of BDSM?  As long as the Dominant gives the order- isn't it a BDSM activity?
 
I also want to clarify my personal position here- so that I can be properly flamed and crucified-
It is my position that to turn a blind eye to something that is potentially harmful, illegal and dangerous- whether or not it is between consenting adults- especially when one of those adults may have no alternative- is the same in my mind's eye to ignoring/condoning child abuse as "the way those people do it".
 
I know I am in a minority here, but I must wonder if BDSM is  about bonding of the dominant to the submissive, or a "lifestyle" that houses and validates abusers and deviants, and gives them affirmation and acceptance no matter what they may do.
 
Yes, it is up to us as individuals to judge what is best for us and ours. However, I do not seek out the company of, nor do I condone the activities of those who have no concern for the welfare of those in their charge.
 
 Does anyone besides me feel that this type of total acceptance and all-inclusion lures predators to the lifestyle? 
 
Please- I am not attacking anyone here, so please try not to take this post as a personal affront.
 
 
 
 
 



LotusSong -> RE: What is considered "outside" BDSM? (10/9/2006 8:16:23 PM)

I'm with you on this.  The Feeder/Feedee fetish comes to mind.



BitaTruble -> RE: What is considered "outside" BDSM? (10/9/2006 8:23:47 PM)

I think predators lurk every where. People who want to attack homosexuals hit the gay bars. People who are after the sterotype of an easy woman may hang around strip clubs. People who believe bottoms are weak can hit the dungeons. They go where they are most likely to find their victims in sufficient numbers to maybe cull one or two from the herd. Education, however, is going to do far more good than BDSM cops ever can. Couple that with personal responsibility and raising awareness on sites like this so that those just beginning their journey have a half a shot at finding some joy from it and then those of us who are 'in' to things which are potentially harmful, often illegal and absolutely dangerous can be left alone with our partners who've consented to do all those things to us, with us and for us.

Celeste




LotusSong -> RE: What is considered "outside" BDSM? (10/9/2006 8:34:09 PM)

This does sound all well and good.. but the attitude of  "don't judge.. it's all good.." that is so prevalent in all this is just what seems to taint it for the rest. 
 
It is so difficult to separate the BS from the Ds.



Tikkiee -> RE: What is considered "outside" BDSM? (10/9/2006 8:46:49 PM)

Hmmm, well...I am of the firm mind that what others do is their business, not mine. What I may see as abuse, could just be play in the eyes of others. Who am I to say differently? A good example is gun play. I don't like it. Guns terrify me, literally. Trying to bring me into such a scenario IS abuse in my own eyes, when directed at myself. Yet, there are many others who enjoy the rush that comes from it. For them, it is not abuse. Who am I to say differently?
 
As Celeste said, predators lurk everywhere, not just in our own little kinky corner [:)] I don't see them more here than I do anywhere on the street. Sure, some come into this life as a way to 'condone' what they are doing; but let's face it, personal responsibility has to come into play somewhere. I refuse, absolutly REFUSE to believe that all those who claim to have been abused by some Dominant/Master here had NOTHING to do with their situation. I don't care how new they are. Common sense goes along way; it's time that most learned to excercise it. And when they refuse to listen to it...they need to step up and say 'hey I fucked up big time, next time around I will be more careful'.
 
I am sorry, but listening to all the bullshit about how personal responsibility no longer matters when someone gets hurt...is just that BULLSHIT.



BitaTruble -> RE: What is considered "outside" BDSM? (10/9/2006 8:59:45 PM)

I don't understand why that would taint things. There is nothing wrong with pointing out safety to someone who has a kink that you may believe can cause them harm and once you do that, frankly, it's time to butt out and wish them well. That's what I mean by educating. What we may or may not be able to achieve is severly limited by on-line interactions, so at best calling someone out on their kink isn't going to do much good .. and most likely is just going to piss off a bunch of people for no purpose.

Even R/T as opposed to V/T interaction isn't much better. I mean, unless you have intimate knowledge of the details of particular scenes which you are witness to, how do you know that what's going on isn't exactly what was negotiated prior to the start of the session? Some stranger who walks into a play space isn't going to know Himself and I from Adam and some of the things which we engage in are pretty intense (though mild compared to what we do at home alone!) but we've been doing them together for almost 11 years.

Honestly though, I know people who get absolutely squicked by watching a flogging. A flogging for crying out loud.. just about as mild and innocuous as you can get! Whose criteria are we supposed to use when making a determination to interrupt or stop full grown adult humans from doing what they have agreed to do?

Well, we could use mine I suppose, but other than that, I don't agree to use anyone else's. [8D]

Celeste



becca333 -> RE: What is considered "outside" BDSM? (10/10/2006 2:01:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhiteRadiance

This is a companion thread to the last one I posted about what is considered sick.
 
My curiosity lies as to what can a Dominant request of a sub- that is "outside" of the realm of BDSM?  As long as the Dominant gives the order- isn't it a BDSM activity? 
 


Crochet. 

Crochet is outside BDSM, unless you use the crochet hook to... never mind.




bandit25 -> RE: What is considered "outside" BDSM? (10/10/2006 2:09:22 AM)

I kind of agree with Tikkee here.  There is such a thing as personal responsibility.  Of course, education plays a big role, but don't we all have to take responsibility for what we do?  If Master says to do something illegal or harmful, do I do it?  I think not.  All those who say they don't have a choice, well, they did.  And they chose to do nothing.  Yes, they need to own that they made a bad choice and move on.  Take responsibility for their mistakes and try NOT to make the same one again. 



RiotGirl -> RE: What is considered "outside" BDSM? (10/10/2006 2:20:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhiteRadiance

This is a companion thread to the last one I posted about what is considered sick.


really there's a thread going on about sick, disgusting and perverted things?  Howd i miss that?
 
quote:

My curiosity lies as to what can a Dominant request of a sub- that is "outside" of the realm of BDSM?  As long as the Dominant gives the order- isn't it a BDSM activity?


i'mma go with the crochet too...

quote:

 or a "lifestyle" that houses and validates xxxx and deviants, and gives them affirmation and acceptance no matter what they may do.


something that houses deviants and gives acceptance no matter what?  Anddddddddddd?  Whats so wrong about that??  Sounds like fun.  AND if you have issue with it, why'd you go and step into the house??  Why do you care?  Whats it matter?  Are you one of those people that goes up to some one gay and says "homosexuality is sick and i'm greatly distressed that you practice it, becausee.......  x y z??"'  OR are you one of those gay ppls that has a hard time being gay?  I say, come - play - enjoy, roll in the gluttony of your deviance and enjoy it. 


 
quote:

Does anyone besides me feel that this type of total acceptance and all-inclusion lures predators to the lifestyle? 


Do you feel that the interent is lure for predators?  Did you miss the memo about Priests and their younger flocks?  Teachers and their outside enjoyment of their students?  Shall i continue? 
 
quote:

Please- I am not attacking anyone here, so please try not to take this post as a personal affront.


Personally i found it pretty funny and no offense but completely illogical. 
 
 
 
 
 



becca333 -> RE: What is considered "outside" BDSM? (10/10/2006 2:29:13 AM)

I think anything lures predators, they're so sadly desperate.  This lifestyle attracts a lot of them, all we can do is set basic rules, and keep an eye out for the worst ones.

And I agee with Celeste that education is one of the best protections.

And if that fails, there's always the crochet hook...



RiotGirl -> RE: What is considered "outside" BDSM? (10/10/2006 2:31:43 AM)

my bad i didnt miss it.....



LadyEllen -> RE: What is considered "outside" BDSM? (10/10/2006 4:37:26 AM)

It seems from a few posts here, that there is no sympathy due to anyone who suffers from the attentions of predators?

This indicates to me, that anyone thinking like that has never come up against a true predator. These people dont come with flashing lights and an "I am a sexual predator" T shirt - usually they are sufficiently proficient in their activities that no one will ever know anything is amiss, especially their chosen victim, until it is too late. Initially, no one else can believe the victim's story, until it happens again, and again. The idea seemingly being that the victim is at fault for not being sensible enough to know (somehow) that this apparently normal person was a predatory monster. Its rather like the good old days when a rape victim was told she has brought it on herself.

We are not talking here about someone not having the same interest, or someone who goes too far, or someone who pushes the danger aspect. These predators are not normal bdsm people (if there is such a thing) - but they identify bdsm as a hunting ground where they might be able to pick up a victim who through careful grooming, will walk themselves to the slaughter. These predatory types appear normal, act normally etc, to get the victim where they want them. In reality they are severely ill people who ought to be under psychiatric care.

This is why no one should ever treat a bdsm relationship any differently to the way they would treat a normal relationship. It takes time to get to know someone, and with time even the most clever predator will be revealed - that is, if the predator does not move on, given the pace of things - after all, the predator wants a victim, soon, and is not likely to wait around.

E




Tikkiee -> RE: What is considered "outside" BDSM? (10/10/2006 4:59:03 AM)

quote:

This indicates to me, that anyone thinking like that has never come up against a true predator

Bullshit. I HAVE come up against the worse kind of predator; pure, unaldultered evil. Yet, I take responsibility for putting myself in that situation. No one told me I had to go to him. I chose to. I do not take responsibility for what he did to me, but I take what is mine.
 
However, when someone does the same thing over and over and over again; to me that says that it is not the predators fault; its the victims fault. Maybe harsh thinking, but there it is.



darkinshadows -> RE: What is considered "outside" BDSM? (10/10/2006 5:03:59 AM)

Firstly - I understand your not looking for a flame fest or attacking anyone.
However, it is important when dealing with aspects of BDSM to understand that BDSM is consensual activity.
 
Firstly I am compelled to dismiss the myth of abuse.  Comparing it to child abuse - in the way that you did - is completely wrong.  And totally different.
The situation you compared it to is more similar to say - an abusive relationship where a man or woman are being beaten with no possible way of escape.  Or animal cruelty.  The difference is the fear factor.  These are relationships based on fear.  You cannot possibly compare a BDSM relationship with one that is abusive fear.
There is no comparrison.
 
Secondly, the myth of lifestyle.  Not everyone who is involved in BDSM is in a 'Lifestyle' - they just exist.
 
Thirdly, BDSM is not perfect.  It isn't some higher spiritual practice. It isnt any better than any other relationship.  It isn't infalible and it is just as open to abuse as any other relationship.  Its just what it says it is.  Whatever fetsih someone may or maynot have has nothing to do with whether you are in a BDSM relationship or not.  I know plenty of fetishists who do not practice BDSM at all.
 
You are concentrating too much on the BDSM aspect.  The relationship itself is what is important.  Whether you practice BDSM or a fetish or Ds or sky diving - makes no difference.  Abuse exists.  It isn't ignored.  It isn't excused.  But if someone desires to be raped, or fed, or beaten until they bleed, or drink anothers blood or any other fluid or waste matter - that isn't your responsibility.  Yes - its ok to voice repulsion - yes its good to offer support.  But you are not personally responsible for every practice.  If someone is being abused, they have to break the cycle themself.  Under correct guidence, every one of these practices can be safe.  I wouldn't be able to practice any electric play simply because I do not have the experience - but that doesn't mean it is unsafe in anothers hands.
 
It is a falicy that there is total acceptance of all practices, which is perpetuated by posts like this and your previous one.  It is yourself who has the misconception that BDSM is about acceptable abuse on a grand and unanswerable scale... and you are helping to spread that myth.
 
Peace and Rapture
 



Lashra -> RE: What is considered "outside" BDSM? (10/10/2006 5:06:05 AM)

I am with you on this, sometimes you have to speak up and say something even though it may not be the *popular* opinion. I have never been one to bury my head in the sand when I've seen something that I just knew wasn't right even if it meant pissing off some people.
But then again I've never really cared what others thought of me as long as my own concious is clean.

~Lashra



darkinshadows -> RE: What is considered "outside" BDSM? (10/10/2006 5:14:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lashra

I am with you on this, sometimes you have to speak up and say something even though it may not be the *popular* opinion. I have never been one to bury my head in the sand when I've seen something that I just knew wasn't right even if it meant pissing off some people.
But then again I've never really cared what others thought of me as long as my own concious is clean.

~Lashra


Yes, I agree.  I would never participate in an area or activity that I saw as unsafe, and yes, if there was specific danger I would speak up.  But that is all you can do.  And it does happen.  Maybe I am reading the OP wrong, but that isn't how I am reading it.  In BDSM - people do stand up and say no and is a myth to say they don't, and from the OPs understanding that 'they are in a minority' which, quite frankly, is bullshit and doesn't speak very highly of people practicing BDSM like yourself or me or anyone else who would advise in an activity that was going terribly wrong.
 
There is a huge difference in standing up and protecting from abuse or danger - to interfering with a personal choice and responsibility.
 
Peace and Rapture



caitlyn -> RE: What is considered "outside" BDSM? (10/10/2006 5:18:41 AM)

Assuming that the entire world is to be judged by your own standards, you are quite correct Cassandra. Perhaps a memo was missed. [;)]
 
There are many different factors that play a part in someone becoming a magnet for abuse. Not all are the fault of the abused.



Iskander -> RE: What is considered "outside" BDSM? (10/10/2006 8:53:30 AM)

A Dominant can ask pretty much anything..
Assuming that people do not know the risks of what they do is condecending and treating them like idiots..
Anyone who asks things that are life alteringly dangerous (physically AND mentally), or in the realm of 'hardlimits' is not a Dominant, but an abuser...
I don't condone the abusers etc any more than you do, but frankly I couldn't care less if they weasel themselves into any lifestyle, I am responsible only for myself and my sub.. (yes that includes keeping whatever kinks we like away from unconsenting people) There are over 6.5 billion people in the world, which 10 do you want to 'save'?!

As for "potentially harmful, illegal and dangerous" while wearing high heels might not be illegal (in the western world), it has proven potentially harmful, and even dangerous at times.. But surely you don't go around warning people of this do you? I know I sure as hell don't, heels look yummy on a woman...
But someone could easily take your point of view and tell you that you're abusing your body by wearing them...
What would you say to that person?

Iskander...





Tikkiee -> RE: What is considered "outside" BDSM? (10/10/2006 8:56:20 AM)

quote:

There are many different factors that play a part in someone becoming a magnet for abuse. Not all are the fault of the abused.

sorry Caitlyn, but I disagree. When the abuse keeps happening, time after time; it's time to step back and ask yourself 'what am I doing wrong'.



caitlyn -> RE: What is considered "outside" BDSM? (10/10/2006 9:15:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tikkiee
quote:

There are many different factors that play a part in someone becoming a magnet for abuse. Not all are the fault of the abused.

sorry Caitlyn, but I disagree. When the abuse keeps happening, time after time; it's time to step back and ask yourself 'what am I doing wrong'.


We can agree to not agree then. [:D]
 
To me your position discounts many other factors that may play a part. People with emotional trauma are usually not able to see reality for what it is. People with radical chemical imbalance (depression, etc ...) usually don't know they have it. Feelings of worth issues may come in to play, and when you have low self-worth, it becomes very hard to admit to yourself that you have yet another major problem.
 
No offense ... but in my view you are radically over-simplifying a problem that can be very complex.



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