RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submissive?

RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submissive? (Full Version)

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Rover -> RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submissive? (10/13/2006 7:29:58 AM)
Mavis, I have some extra humor if you need a transplant. The hanging comment was (I thought) an obvious joke. Now, I will allow that perhaps you are the first person I have come across to define "submissive" and "slave" and only meant for it to apply to yourself in your own relationship (though I'd be wondering what purpose it would serve to define them in the first place, but that isn't my business). In which case, this does not apply to you. That being said, a whole freaking lot of people are, and do, presume to make such definitions and expect them to apply to the entire lifestyle. Not that they have some form of enforcement mechanism, but it's the prism they use to view others, form judgments about them, and gossip. If that's not you, great. But please don't expect me to hang a sign on every post I make saying "This Does Not Apply To Mavis". It really detracts from the flow of a discussion. Seriously, best wishes to you. John

LordODiscipline -> RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submissive? (10/13/2006 8:47:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rover Jewel and catize, I think the illuminating information is going to have to come from Dominants who identify as "Masters" and differentiate themselves on some basis other than ownership. However, it has been my experience that relatively few are willing to engage in such discussion, unlike slaves and slave owners who are gracious enough to participate. Unless those Masters are willing to step forward, it's a bit like preaching to the choir. John\ Wait a minute - hold your horses everyone - - - - I seem to recall that YOU (Rover) were appointed as "Grand Master" two years ago.. Stop being so modest.[:D] ~J *this does not apply to Mavis*

Rover -> RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submissive? (10/13/2006 8:50:38 AM)
Well, I do have the sacred relic to prove it, LOD. But I'm loathe to lord it over you commoners. John

adaddysgirl -> RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submissive? (10/13/2006 9:22:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mavis quote: ORIGINAL: adaddysgirl Not to be offensive, but it does seem the 'slaves' are the ones mainly saying 'i am more of this or give up more or whatever, than a submissive'....using the word 'more' as a comparative. What is interestig is unless i missed it, the only poster adding to this thread proclaiming to actually be a slave, is me.. and i have posted twice my feeling that the implication that a slave is deeper or a more evolved type of submissive is just bunk. It's as if, people, having been exposed to that attitude from some slaves, refuse to see those who do not share that belief. i have commented twice that my use of the label comes only from Master choice of what to call me, and that being to use His definitions of what the sub role is and what the slave role is.. in O/our dynamic. Then, i tried to explain those definitions, although anyone who has read me for any length of time knows i do NOT subscribe to the theory that one can define roles in any way that will be agreed upon. Mavis, Why are you insistent that i am talking about you and referring only to this thread? The above comment i made was in relation to the several threads i have read on this subject. And that was in response to catize....nothing that you posted. Without going back and rereading all your posts, i can't even say that you compared subs to slaves in any capacity. i did remark on a comment of 'slave negotiations' due to something you posted but i'm not sure that was even further addressed. If you post something questionable to me, trust me that i will definitely address my concern directly to you. Otherwise, i am either speaking to someone else or merely speaking in general terms. Daddysgirl

adaddysgirl -> RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submissive? (10/13/2006 9:57:47 AM)
quote: Right, i said "i have seen".. not "i have read".. i have personally spoke to Dominants that make a distinction between being a "mere Dominant" and prefer to be considered Masters. i would agree with you that being and claiming are two different things, and that's one of those "eye of the beholder" type things. Where i said i had never seen a Domme make the same declaration, that would be why you can't find threads on it, they aren't here, or i've never seen them. Dommes don't seem to get hung up on their "masterliness". To clarify, from my experience with personal face to face discussions, this seems to be a hot topic with mostly male Dominants, female subs and slaves, male subs and slaves less so. i haven't gone over the list of participants in this thread, but for now, other than Jewel, who is speaking on behalf of Her family, her slave, and her SO who is a Master, i don't think there have been many Dommes participating. All i was doing was pointing out if it was a female thing, we wouldn't see Rover so involved. and we could expect to see more Dommes running with it too. i said i have 'seen', (meaning read) on several threads on CM. i was not referring to any personal discussions i've had...or i would have stated it that way. Obviously our definition of 'seen' is different, mine referring to reading and yours related to conversations. So be it. There were about 3 other Dommes beside Jewel who posted on this thread. While it is true that their posts may not have been ongoing, i have seen other threads where Dommes have come on and continued a conversation about what slave means to them (as Jewel has done here). Again, i am talking about several threads, not just this one. i have no idea why more Dommes aren't posting here. Or slaves for that matter. Perhaps they are just tired of the topic...i don't know. But again, i have not seen much from Masters defining the difference here either....not ongoing anyway. And as for Rover....he's just challenging some ideas that others have, and asking for clarity. And i for one have found this whole thing quite interesting [&:] Daddysgirl

Amaros -> RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submissive? (10/13/2006 9:58:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sab The eternal question - and one you will find no real answer to. You will see that some here will diect you to other discussions and expect you to read them in full, yet, as you are new to the life, which is D/s, M/s, BDSM, or even operating a vacuum cleaner - the answer is as complicated as the question - and that isn't what you expected. What you must do is set yourself a certain amount of paramiters - you can do this by stipulating how far you wish to go. Go, in a simple sense, means into this lifestyle - and to complicate it further, there are some here who HATE the term 'lifestyle'. Do you wish to submit wholehearted to one person? Do you wish to be a mere object that wishes to be used for no other pupose other than an object? Do you wish to be in a caring and loving relationship where you are cared for, yet have to obey every command? Do you wish to be taken as a sex object? Do you wish to be flogged for a crossed word? Many, many questions to ask yourself - and those are the ones you need to ask before you can ask the one you have. Each of us have different ideals and ideas - and you see that many of us disagree as well as agree - but, to answer your question directly and without fear or favour, 'What is the difference between slave and sub?' We haven't a fucking clue! Well, since we did go through that whole, interminable thread trying to figure out what "slave" means, I'll recap - I don't automatically assume that everybody in here has ADHD, newbie or otherwise, but it's it is helpful to summarize, it saves a lot of scrolling through the flames if nothing else. Breifly then, my take on it: There is a sort of distinction between a slave and a submissive, but it operates on number of levels. There are two wyas of looking at any word/symbol: implicit meaning and explicit meaning. I argued fairly long and hard about my reservations concerning the use of the term "slave" at all, as it has a very specific explicit definition to the world at large, and only an implicit meaning within BDSM. I won't recap the explicit vs. implicit debate, since I had it mostly with myself anyway, but just address the implicit connotations between "slave" and "submisive". I don't use the word "connote" loosely, because an implicit connotation is very difficult - let's just say impossible - to nail down precisely, by definition of being implicit - it has a specific meaning to you, and to you're intimate social circle, i.e., prople who share a certian set of similar expectations and experience - and really has very little or no explicit meaning outside this circle, i.e., other than in the global political consensus sense of non-consensual servitude. In short, the map is not the territory, etc., and calling yourself a slave doesn't make you any more slavish, and we'll never be able to nail down a single, specific meaning of the word in a BDSM context, all we can do is try to loosely interpret what it implies. When used in a profile, it does tend to elicit a some connotations, at least to me, and here is where the rubber hits the road in terms of the OP - "submissive" connotes to me that you are probobly willing to put up with most of the perversions I wish to inflict upon your tender flesh, with respect to negotiation, limits, etc. - to me it indicates basically that you want somebody else to do all the work in bed, while housework, job, etc., is negotiable, and how far I can go with you depends on how far I can get you to trust me, etc., i.e., it's a median starting point for establishing the D/s dynamic. Calling yourself a slave, on the other hand connotes fewer boundries, you'll wash the car, etc. and generally serve -in other than sexual capacities, although again, this is somewhat subjective, and this is what describing yourself as a slave connotes to me - and I base this mostly on the things self described slaves post as opposed to what self described submissive post about themselves and the way the do wiiwd. i.e., less negotiation, fewer restricitions or druthers on what I do to you or tell you to do, i.e., it's a deeper immersion in the service role - and I'm not going to recap the whole identity/action thing, i.e., being and doing, suffice it to say that in practical terms, it's doing, while being is a particular hermetic psychological state that has explicit meaning only to you, and only implicit meaning to everyone else, based upon how you comport yourself. All it really give me is a vague clue as you how you percieve your role - you'll have to flesh it out in interaction. In the end, it's really just about the individual - the irony is that in the non-consensual history of slavery, slaves were pretty much expected to be rebellious, that's why they had to beaten and chained, no? Thus, if we were going get technical, and look at it through a historical lens, one would have to say that a slave requires a greater level of training, supervision and scrutiny than a submissive, who does what they do out of a need to be submissive. Oop's, I was going to simplify, and here I go complicating it again, lol. [8\|]

adaddysgirl -> RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submissive? (10/13/2006 10:42:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rover I used the gym example intentionally to see if you would draw that distinction. And now we've discovered a legitimate point of divergence; as it relates to the example used, slaves are more literal than are submissives. And that could be (could be) a legitimate difference between the two. Something to give some consideration and study. i have to think about this too. i had never really looked at it in this context. But personally, that would drive me nuts (guess that's why i couldn't be a slave nor a Domme...lol). my 18 year old son was outside the other day so i asked him to grab me a bottle of water out of my car (i had picked up a 12 pack at groceries the night before). He goes in my car, opens the 12 pack of water, and brings me in one bottle. i asked him why he didn't bring in the whole pack....he said because i didn't ask him to. So there you go. Even if he had yelled in to me and asked if i wanted the whole pack, i probably would have said 'Duh!'....lol i have raised 3 kids so have had my share of 'because you didn't tell me to' stuff....and it drove me mad. i mean, sometimes it's only common sense. Now i can see asking first....if i were fixing holes and thought my partner overlooked others that also needed repair, i would try to contact him to ask him first. If that was not an option, then i wouldn't fix them but i would let him know that i had wanted to contact him about it but couldn't (for whatever reason). Same as going in the wrong direction. i would probably ask 'Are you sure you want to take a right here?' (when i know the gym is to the left)....i guess that only makes sense to me. But....as i see what Jewel is saying....that is not an option for a slave (and now i'm not even sure if we are still talking about slaves in general or just her slave). In any event, if that is a reference point for a difference, i definitely do see it as something to consider. DG

Sab -> RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submissive? (10/13/2006 10:45:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Amaros quote: ORIGINAL: Sab The eternal question - and one you will find no real answer to. You will see that some here will diect you to other discussions and expect you to read them in full, yet, as you are new to the life, which is D/s, M/s, BDSM, or even operating a vacuum cleaner - the answer is as complicated as the question - and that isn't what you expected. What you must do is set yourself a certain amount of paramiters - you can do this by stipulating how far you wish to go. Go, in a simple sense, means into this lifestyle - and to complicate it further, there are some here who HATE the term 'lifestyle'. Do you wish to submit wholehearted to one person? Do you wish to be a mere object that wishes to be used for no other pupose other than an object? Do you wish to be in a caring and loving relationship where you are cared for, yet have to obey every command? Do you wish to be taken as a sex object? Do you wish to be flogged for a crossed word? Many, many questions to ask yourself - and those are the ones you need to ask before you can ask the one you have. Each of us have different ideals and ideas - and you see that many of us disagree as well as agree - but, to answer your question directly and without fear or favour, 'What is the difference between slave and sub?' We haven't a fucking clue! Well, since we did go through that whole, interminable thread trying to figure out what "slave" means, I'll recap - I don't automatically assume that everybody in here has ADHD, newbie or otherwise, but it's it is helpful to summarize, it saves a lot of scrolling through the flames if nothing else. Breifly then, my take on it: There is a sort of distinction between a slave and a submissive, but it operates on number of levels. There are two wyas of looking at any word/symbol: implicit meaning and explicit meaning. I argued fairly long and hard about my reservations concerning the use of the term "slave" at all, as it has a very specific explicit definition to the world at large, and only an implicit meaning within BDSM. I won't recap the explicit vs. implicit debate, since I had it mostly with myself anyway, but just address the implicit connotations between "slave" and "submisive". I don't use the word "connote" loosely, because an implicit connotation is very difficult - let's just say impossible - to nail down precisely, by definition of being implicit - it has a specific meaning to you, and to you're intimate social circle, i.e., prople who share a certian set of similar expectations and experience - and really has very little or no explicit meaning outside this circle, i.e., other than in the global political consensus sense of non-consensual servitude. In short, the map is not the territory, etc., and calling yourself a slave doesn't make you any more slavish, and we'll never be able to nail down a single, specific meaning of the word in a BDSM context, all we can do is try to loosely interpret what it implies. When used in a profile, it does tend to elicit a some connotations, at least to me, and here is where the rubber hits the road in terms of the OP - "submissive" connotes to me that you are probobly willing to put up with most of the perversions I wish to inflict upon your tender flesh, with respect to negotiation, limits, etc. - to me it indicates basically that you want somebody else to do all the work in bed, while housework, job, etc., is negotiable, and how far I can go with you depends on how far I can get you to trust me, etc., i.e., it's a median starting point for establishing the D/s dynamic. Calling yourself a slave, on the other hand connotes fewer boundries, you'll wash the car, etc. and generally serve -in other than sexual capacities, although again, this is somewhat subjective, and this is what describing yourself as a slave connotes to me - and I base this mostly on the things self described slaves post as opposed to what self described submissive post about themselves and the way the do wiiwd. i.e., less negotiation, fewer restricitions or druthers on what I do to you or tell you to do, i.e., it's a deeper immersion in the service role - and I'm not going to recap the whole identity/action thing, i.e., being and doing, suffice it to say that in practical terms, it's doing, while being is a particular hermetic psychological state that has explicit meaning only to you, and only implicit meaning to everyone else, based upon how you comport yourself. All it really give me is a vague clue as you how you percieve your role - you'll have to flesh it out in interaction. In the end, it's really just about the individual - the irony is that in the non-consensual history of slavery, slaves were pretty much expected to be rebellious, that's why they had to beaten and chained, no? Thus, if we were going get technical, and look at it through a historical lens, one would have to say that a slave requires a greater level of training, supervision and scrutiny than a submissive, who does what they do out of a need to be submissive. Oop's, I was going to simplify, and here I go complicating it again, lol. [8\|] And please simplify that further - why did you quote me or am I missing something? My reply to the OP was, as I feel others have seen, was to inform them that we all have a different perception as to what a slave/sub/Master/Dom actually is. The age old equation = ask 1000 etc and you get 1000 different answers. I, personally, don't think you can have a standerdised unit of subhood/slavehood - I do think it is all in the personal dynamic of that relationship that any and all involved in choose - but, and I freely admit, I could be wrong.

twicehappy -> RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submissive? (10/13/2006 10:49:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: adaddysgirl i have no idea why more Dommes aren't posting here. Or slaves for that matter. Because i KNOW better than to play word games with John or Joseph either for that matter; i'm sitting this one out and Jewel can have all the fun, lol. But i am still waiting to see the picture of his butt.......

adaddysgirl -> RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submissive? (10/13/2006 11:03:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rover quote: ORIGINAL: Sinergy I personally think that whether one is a Dominant or Master/Mistress or slave or submissive is defined by what one does, not by what one thinks they are. Boy, can I agree that people cannot be defined by what they THINK they are. And who can't relate to the observations readily available at any gathering of lifestylers? But do you really think that people are defined by what they do? I have worked on my car from time to time, but I'm far from being a mechanic. I cut the lawn, but I'm no gardener. I replaced two light fixtures in the kitchen recently, but I'm no electrician. And what if someone is "doing" nothing? What about a Dominant or submissive/slave that is not currently in a power exchange relationship? Are they no longer Dominant or submissive? Must people be defined by external sources, or by virtue of other people? I'm not sure I'm comfortable with that. What say you? John i personally have to agree with Sinergy here. To me, it is about what they do....not what they think about themselves....that matters more to me. i may have said this before but when i am contacted by a dom (or Master), i always like to ask his experience with D/s. Is he just starting out? Has he ever been in a D/s relationship before? Is his experience limited to online stuff? Was it live in? Long distance? i guess i just have been 'fooled' too many times by those claiming to be dom when they really weren't at all and were really only looking for kinky sex, and by those who called themselves Masters but had no M/s experience....nor 'proper credentials'...lol. And i know guys who have no mechanics degree....nor any paper certifying them as a mechanic....but they have been working on cars for 20 ....so yes, i would say he is a mechanic. Again, i would use length of experience as a gauge....not just something someone does intermittently. And as for the last part.....an unemployed mechanic, in my opinion, is a mechanic nonetheless (once he's proved that's he's really a mechanic of course) [sm=lol.gif] [sm=lol.gif][sm=lol.gif] DG

LaTigresse -> RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submissive? (10/13/2006 11:12:06 AM)
using fast reply so as not to get any panties or boxers bunched...[:D] What an awsome thread! I just love seeing two grown adults debating without turning it into a childish pissing match. And, I am getting alot of food for thought. The great thing is that, the way the different ideas are being presented I can see all sides of the issue.

LordODiscipline -> RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submissive? (10/13/2006 11:17:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: adaddysgirl quote: ORIGINAL: Rover quote: ORIGINAL: Sinergy I personally think that whether one is a Dominant or Master/Mistress or slave or submissive is defined by what one does, not by what one thinks they are. Boy, can I agree that people cannot be defined by what they THINK they are. And who can't relate to the observations readily available at any gathering of lifestylers? But do you really think that people are defined by what they do? I have worked on my car from time to time, but I'm far from being a mechanic. I cut the lawn, but I'm no gardener. I replaced two light fixtures in the kitchen recently, but I'm no electrician. And what if someone is "doing" nothing? What about a Dominant or submissive/slave that is not currently in a power exchange relationship? Are they no longer Dominant or submissive? Must people be defined by external sources, or by virtue of other people? I'm not sure I'm comfortable with that. What say you? John i personally have to agree with Sinergy here. To me, it is about what they do....not what they think about themselves....that matters more to me. i may have said this before but when i am contacted by a dom (or Master), i always like to ask his experience with D/s. Is he just starting out? Has he ever been in a D/s relationship before? Is his experience limited to online stuff? Was it live in? Long distance? i guess i just have been 'fooled' too many times by those claiming to be dom when they really weren't at all and were really only looking for kinky sex, and by those who called themselves Masters but had no M/s experience....nor 'proper credentials'...lol. And i know guys who have no mechanics degree....nor any paper certifying them as a mechanic....but they have been working on cars for 20 ....so yes, i would say he is a mechanic. Again, i would use length of experience as a gauge....not just something someone does intermittently. And as for the last part.....an unemployed mechanic, in my opinion, is a mechanic nonetheless (once he's proved that's he's really a mechanic of course) [sm=lol.gif] [sm=lol.gif][sm=lol.gif] DG *"What They Do" is as specious and vague a comparisson of differentiation as any other I guess...* *I mean - what it comes right down to is:* *"What they do as you [or, Sinergy]* determine as compared to what someone else does as you [or, Sinergy] deliniate makes it slavery or submission to YOU. But, Rover (over there) [who incidentally believes in unicorns and the tooth fairy], might determine that anyone can be a slave if they simply tap their red shoes together and wish it well and hard enough.** (Pay no attention to the Rover behind the curtain!) It is a subjective determinant STILL and the fact that it may be "what they do" as compared to "how they define themselves" as compared to "how strict their relational dynamics/rules/protocols, etc are" is STILL at issue because it is the individual defining it. *These conversations always come down to this:* Because we (as a sub-culture) do not have a set of definitions approved by the Better Pervert Keeping Council, there is no way to determine what IS and IS NOT a slave/submissive except by personal (What they do, per what "I" believe) means... *...and, it is all electronic ink under some proverbial bridge (and, the fishing sucks)* ~J

Amaros -> RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submissive? (10/13/2006 12:16:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sab And please simplify that further - why did you quote me or am I missing something? My reply to the OP was, as I feel others have seen, was to inform them that we all have a different perception as to what a slave/sub/Master/Dom actually is. The age old equation = ask 1000 etc and you get 1000 different answers. I, personally, don't think you can have a standerdised unit of subhood/slavehood - I do think it is all in the personal dynamic of that relationship that any and all involved in choose - but, and I freely admit, I could be wrong. Because you made a good point: quote: ORIGINAL: Sab The eternal question - and one you will find no real answer to. You will see that some here will diect you to other discussions and expect you to read them in full, yet, as you are new to the life, which is D/s, M/s, BDSM, or even operating a vacuum cleaner - the answer is as complicated as the question - and that isn't what you expected. Part of my purpose in the thread I linked to, was try and settle on something that would help clarify the distinction, if there is one worth mentioning, to aclyotes, newbies, what have you that launch these threads. It's all well and good to say there is no distinction between sub and slave, and yet the question still pops up like clockwork. Not only are they unsure what to call themselves, but they aren't sure what that means when they are called one thing or another: i.e., does a Dom looking for a submissive have the same expectations as a Master looking for a Slave? I laid it out as simply as it can be laid out, i.e. what the connotations are for me - they are two different words, and appear to mean slightly different things, and it seems we ought to get out story straight, because every time the question is asked, one gets dozens of different answers, so conflicting that one is forced eventually to conclude that the word simply has no meaning at all. In the absolute, bitter (or blissfull) end, it's going to mean exactly what it means to a given D/s dyad, but this is like saying nothing at all. In short, we never did come to any agreement, after chewing on it for days, save "it means what it means to you", but all the same when I see or hear one word or the other used, it does seem to imply a slightly differing set of expectations and priorities - I'd be tempted to say you are a submissive until you find yourself a slave, but then there's that implied hierarchy again, and nobody likes that - I see it as flat, but everybody makes their own assumptions. Truely, much of it is aesthetic, and that figures in there somewhere too. The only real practical solution I see here with regards to giving advice in these threads, is what several people have done - one, give their opinion on what it means, taking pains to identify it as *subjective opinion* - which it's always necessarily going to be whether presented as a catagorical imperative or otherwise - and it may or will take on the usual myriad of formulations; and/or secondly, advise simply to make a list of your needs and expectations, and don't sweat the terminology. The former gives you something to chew on, the latter some perhaps needed practical advice.

Sab -> RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submissive? (10/13/2006 12:35:21 PM)
Ah - now I understand! I didn't mean to come over as pissy, if I did, I apologise. I cannot see an answer to the OP or any other of a similar content, it really is a anathama - a slave is a slave because she will call herself a slave, a sub will do the very same thing. Do we wish to standerdise what is a slave, to pigeonhole a set chriteria as to how a 'slave' must act to hold a certificate of slavery? If we do, who is the person(s) who do the pigeonhole(ing)!? I have a sub - she is a sub by label of choice, yet, a sub as she is - does that mean she cannot be a slave in other areas of our relationship? Quirky question to a very quirky answer. Yes she can - but, on the whole as she can, does that make her a slave or a sub? (At this point we bang our collective heads against the collective wall)

lesbiangirlslave -> RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submissive? (10/13/2006 12:39:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Asako I'm a little new to the lifestyle, and noticed the two options when filling out my profile. What is the difference? Very interesting question. my opinion is that a submissive listen and do the most things the Dom says. But it goes never as far as for a slave. A sub can have an own will, soul and body. A sub can therefore diside for him/her self. Mostly she/he don't, but its possible. If a Dom ask to forfill her wishes she can obey or not. Mostly she shall obey but thats not necessarely all the times. A slave has given the complete controll out of her hands to her Mistress/Master. She can't never refuse or disobey her Mistress. She is the property of her Mistress and the Mistress decide in all the ways. What she eat, sleep, dress, go out or not. Every part of her life is under control of her Mistress. She has no own will. The behavior of the slave to her Mistress is to behave as her Mistress told her, there are certain agreement how to behave. But the slave always act as told by her Mistress, even as she don't like it. To obey is her life, to please her Mistress is her pleasure. Make her Mistress happy is the existence of her being. There is much more to tell about the differance but others shall also give there opinon.

Sab -> RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submissive? (10/13/2006 12:48:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lesbiangirlslave quote: ORIGINAL: Asako I'm a little new to the lifestyle, and noticed the two options when filling out my profile. What is the difference? Very interesting question. my opinion is that a submissive listen and do the most things the Dom says. But it goes never as far as for a slave. A sub can have an own will, soul and body. A sub can therefore diside for him/her self. Mostly she/he don't, but its possible. If a Dom ask to forfill her wishes she can obey or not. Mostly she shall obey but thats not necessarely all the times. A slave has given the complete controll out of her hands to her Mistress/Master. She can't never refuse or disobey her Mistress. She is the property of her Mistress and the Mistress decide in all the ways. What she eat, sleep, dress, go out or not. Every part of her life is under control of her Mistress. She has no own will. The behavior of the slave to her Mistress is to behave as her Mistress told her, there are certain agreement how to behave. But the slave always act as told by her Mistress, even as she don't like it. To obey is her life, to please her Mistress is her pleasure. Make her Mistress happy is the existence of her being. There is much more to tell about the differance but others shall also give there opinon. Well - that's one way of putting it! :)

amayos -> Slave vs. submissive (10/13/2006 12:53:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave Difference between sub and slave?? Just the spelling!!! Magik's slave I emphatically disagree. It is misinformational to promote the idea that the two forms are synonymous. To put it simply, a submissive negotiates her rights in servitude, whereas a slave does not retain any rights at all, save those rights her keeper grants. Some will of course balk and take issue with that simple parsing, but that is the crux of it. Most who call themselves "slaves" are in fact BDSM submissives. The attainment of slavery via choice is a difficult path to follow; it is a tremendous odyssey of desire, selfless love and deep-rooted conditioning. It is not attained easily, either by servant or would-be Master. People are of course free to use the words as interchangeably as they like, but it does not mean it is correct to do so.

twicehappy -> RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submissive? (10/13/2006 1:19:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LordODiscipline I seem to recall that YOU (Rover) were appointed as "Grand Master" two years ago.. It is ok Rover, a few years back i bought my Master a 12 by 12 inch piece of property on English soil, filed some paperwork and had him declared Lord ***** of *****, a Baron in his own right, we hung the declaration on the wall. So fly your Grand Master symbol proudly, it means they loved you for some reason.

Lordandmaster -> RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submissive? (10/13/2006 3:16:42 PM)
Isn't this whole thing like asking "What's the difference between a rose and a flower?"

adaddysgirl -> RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submissive? (10/13/2006 3:18:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LordODiscipline *"What They Do" is as specious and vague a comparisson of differentiation as any other I guess...* *I mean - what it comes right down to is:* *"What they do as you [or, Sinergy]* determine as compared to what someone else does as you [or, Sinergy] deliniate makes it slavery or submission to YOU. But, Rover (over there) [who incidentally believes in unicorns and the tooth fairy], might determine that anyone can be a slave if they simply tap their red shoes together and wish it well and hard enough.** (Pay no attention to the Rover behind the curtain!) It is a subjective determinant STILL and the fact that it may be "what they do" as compared to "how they define themselves" as compared to "how strict their relational dynamics/rules/protocols, etc are" is STILL at issue because it is the individual defining it. *These conversations always come down to this:* Because we (as a sub-culture) do not have a set of definitions approved by the Better Pervert Keeping Council, there is no way to determine what IS and IS NOT a slave/submissive except by personal (What they do, per what "I" believe) means... *...and, it is all electronic ink under some proverbial bridge (and, the fishing sucks)* ~J Actually LOD, i was talking about Doms and Masters. But anywho.....the very first dom i met introduced himself to me as a Master. i had no idea about D/s then. He had me read a couple of books so i got the gist. The easiest part of that relationship was the kinky sex....he was quite dominant there and well, i obviously experienced a lot of things i had never even dreamed of (literally...lol). i was aware, however, that he really wasn't very dominant outside of the bedroom. Actually, outside of telling me how to dress when we were together or went out, i had no other 'rules'. But i really didn't think a lot about it then as i had nothing to compare it to (as far as experiences). So one night, after a fun play scene, he took off my blindfold and i found him standing there with my skirt on. i think i went blind for a minute....lol. Anyway, we had a long talk and come to find out, he was a crossdresser (his term). Okay. As i was struggling with that, he then told me he was a switch (i mean, this didn't come out overnight...it did take some further conversations). Again, that was his term. i had no idea what a switch was until he told me (i was not on the net then either). i was not able to stay in that relationship. i suspected he was also bisexual as he wanted us to dress up and go out together to find some men. So yes, i use the words crossdresser, switch and bisexual to define him....but not Master (as he initially did). He was what he did. So when i question someone who contacts me on their experience with D/s, i mainly do so to see what i would be in for. Obviously starting out with someone with little or no experience will be quite different than with someone who has been doing it for years. Early on, i just accepted when someone told me they were a Master (as perhaps many newbies do). But i have since learned differently and sure, even if it has to measure up to my idea of what a Dom/Master is, i at least can now compare it to something....and to what i am looking for in a partner. When someone identifies as a switch, i don't need to know in what capacity they switch. That just helps me understand that they can both top and bottom (or dom and sub...whatever). It only has to give me an idea of what they are. But when someone says they are a Master, if he is looking to get involved with me, i do need to know what he considers that title to mean, in reference to his life anyway (i don't care about anyone else's). So yes, i am defining it by personal means but to me, if i am considering him as a potential partner, that only makes sense. DG

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