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RE: The US and guns - 10/23/2006 3:36:31 AM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

2) It would be interesting to see some examples/stats/links for your non-recorded crime committed by the middle-classes.

Only 5% of all crime being recorded and reaching courts was a government estimate, written in a report that circulated the criminal justice system in the 90s. Being an estimate it is unsupported by statistics but I'm sure you have socially circulated in middleclass spheres and come across many crimes that are committed that those middleclass people don't consider crimes. (Actually I think the report was the same report written by Birmingham University that estimated one in ten prisoners in British jails were innocent or pleaded guilty to crimes they didn't commit in a deal with police to strike off crimes they had committed.) Without remembering the actual name to the report it is like looking for a needle in a haystack. This whole field is a mess and this Labour government has done nothing to sort it out. However, figures were routinely changed to percentages or the other way round by organisations such as the Probation Service in a fight to prevent cuts so all fgures in this area are dodgey.

Class is difficult to define these days. In terms of income, I suppose I would lie firmly in the middle class. In terms of values, absolutely not. I couldn't think of anything worse than waxing lyrical with a bunch of thespians Outside of work all my mates are from working class backgrounds but have middle class income so based on what I define as class I very rarely spend time with the middle classes.

I don't doubt your integrity though MC so I won't call the report into question. I would have liked to have seen it though because it would have made for interesting reading.

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RE: The US and guns - 10/23/2006 7:54:52 AM

TahoeSadist

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"What is there to understand about guns? You hold the tool in your hands, you load it, you point it at what you want to die, you squeeze the trigger, and if either your aim is true or you're lucky enough the thing on the other end stops, drops and dies. Afterwards you're either congratulated for your aim or you're arrested and sent to prison for the rest of your life. End of story. The gun is a tool whose sole purpose is to kill. It has no other purpose."

Zenrage, for this statement to be true, (as you do not qualify your opinion with any circumstances) then every shot that is fired from a gun has to be fired at some living thing with the intent to kill. If that is truly your position, I'd say that it is utterly false, the evidence being the millions of rounds a year fired worldwide in shooting competitions of all types and disciplines that kill no one or nothing. Add in even more formal and informal practice sessions that have the same outcome. You are correct that a gun *is* a tool, no different than a 9 iron, a knife, a saw, axe, car, bicycle, boat, etc. As such a gun is not good or evil, nor does it have an inate purpose unless you wish to get into specific models and types. It is simply a tool used by a person to accomplish a goal. Now if that purpose is criminal, it is not the fault of the tool used it is the fault of the person.

"However, guns are necessary instruments of protection and hunting in those areas where, as Aileen68 mentioned, there are limited police resources and dangerous animals and criminals about. In these cases, the gun is a needed tool.

To eliminate the gun from the American culture, the people must first eliminate the threats that require people to own this tool, that is, the crime and the dangerous animals. The former I will explore now. The latter I will save for another day."

Continuing with the assumption that a gun cannot have any other use, thus no one can buy one to do anything other than kill. This also ignores the reality that in a free society, such things can be owned by people with a wide range of reasons:whether they compete, hunt, wish to have self defense capability, or even just collect for investment purposes, historical interest, or because they don't wish to collect stamps.

"Criminal behavior is based solely on the inability of the individual to compete in economic, social, spritual or political climates by socially accepted regulations. As such, these criminals take to guns much as those emotionally insecure individuals I mentioned previously do and use their guns as tools of social inequality in their irrational actions. Then the cops must match these social assailants and bring out bigger guns to combat them."

I'd submit that this is a broad brush attempt to convert criminals into victims. If you stop and look at some of the more famous criminals I don't think the view holds true. I'll take one example: Al Capone. A criminal, for sure, but also a person with the evident capabilities of a successful businessman who had a rather refined grasp of political skill as well. He chose to operate outside the law, there's no evidence that he'd have been "incapable" of earning a living inside the framework of society.

There is a problem I see with fixating on "gun crime" "gun violence" etc. and that is this: it diminishes the crime, in favor of concentrating on what was used to do the criminal act. My viewpoint is that I am against all crime. My view on Columbine was not what those monsters used, but that they decided to kill their fellow students. Likewise, my view on 9/11 was not that they used boxcutters, but that they wanted to murder as many people as possible. If the criminal intent is there, the tool used is irrelevant: as it has always been, whatever is available will be used. Ask the people in Rwanda whether guns are needed to butcher people.

Eric

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RE: The US and guns - 10/27/2006 8:41:19 PM

Masterofmind1973

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Being English and without a concept of gun ownership I will give my own uninformed opinion . The US constitution gives its citizens the right to bear arms and as such they can do so and good luck to them. The debate on removing that right will be argued by better minds than I but if that right was removed then would the criminals hand their weapons in alongside the law abiding? Not bloody likely. You would end up with an angry and vulnerable citizenry and confident crooks! I dont see that the Americans right to bear arms will ever be removed and nor do I think it should be.

Oh and please dont let one mans leftist opinions and his constant propounding of that ideology colour your opinion of the British, we are after all, quite nice chaps you know!

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RE: The US and guns - 10/27/2006 9:05:21 PM

Sinergy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Masterofmind1973

Being English and without a concept of gun ownership I will give my own uninformed opinion . The US constitution gives its citizens the right to bear arms and as such they can do so and good luck to them. The debate on removing that right will be argued by better minds than I but if that right was removed then would the criminals hand their weapons in alongside the law abiding? Not bloody likely. You would end up with an angry and vulnerable citizenry and confident crooks! I dont see that the Americans right to bear arms will ever be removed and nor do I think it should be.

Oh and please dont let one mans leftist opinions and his constant propounding of that ideology colour your opinion of the British, we are after all, quite nice chaps you know!

Hello A/all,

I dont own a gun. I can explain my reasons for that decision all day long.

On the other hand, I agree with TahoeSadist. A gun is a tool. One can kill paper with it. One can kill Iraqi's with it. One can kill somebody else's homies with it.

I have professional issues with a gun's effectiveness in home defense. Which is not to say I want to take person's right to own a gun for home defense away, I simply dont think statistics prove it is a very effective means of defending one's home.

Just me, could be wrong, etc.

I personally dont really care if people want to own guns, and tend to look with suspicion at government agencies that want to take them away.

Sinergy

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