RE: We owe these brave people something...

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MistressCamille -> RE: We owe these brave people something... (10/15/2006 4:16:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl Of course there are terrorists who aren't Islamic, but I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree that Islam doesn't make men terrorists........at the very least it makes them terrorists to women. Did you know that if a woman is raped, her family can kill her? Show me proof that all Islamics follow that. quote: I believe they call those "honor killings" I do feel sorry for women from Iraq trying to escape the mess, but what about all the immigrants from India? There isn't even a war there. What about them? What does it matter if there is a war there or not? quote: If immigration is so limited, then why did so many IT workers lose their jobs not only to outsourcing, but also to immigrants? Show me proof that immigrants took the IT jobs. quote: If immigration was limited, there would be enough jobs for everyone and Americans wouldn't be losing their jobs to these foreigners. We need a government that believes in real limits. What kind of government allows it's own US citizens to lose their jobs to immigrants? Ok, are you Native American? You don't look like it. Evidently you are an immigrant or you came from immigrants. And what do you mean "if" immigration was limited? http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nationworld/bal-te.wish13oct13,0,4783192.story?coll=bal-nationworld-headlines Some people have been waiting decades to get here. You base your argument on statements you've not proven. This is your chance! Show me where immigrants are costing us jobs.

UtopianRanger -> RE: We owe these brave people something... (10/15/2006 5:10:04 PM)
Amen. To Meatcleaver, Lady M and Crappy.... I couldn't agree more. For all those folks who believe we're over in Iraq fighting for OUR freedom - You're either misguided or completely nuts. - R

Master2akasha -> RE: We owe these brave people something... (10/15/2006 5:17:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyMorgynn So was I. I'm a Vietnam Era veteran. I wasn't aware that our unprecedented invasion of a foreign sovereign nation had anything to do with freedom... theirs OR ours. quote: ORIGINAL: Master2akasha Too bad good men and woman have died for your right to put them down and insult them with your comments, but guess what... they would not have it any other way, its called being free and last I checked Freedom was not nor will it ever be free. so remember that the next time you shoot your mouth or in this case your fingers off and put down the men and women for having the moral nerve to stand up and defend what you take for granted. Yes if you are wondering I was in the service.. USAF (ret). well, lets do some math, your profile states your 50 years old... the war ended in 1975, which means at best you were only in the service for a year before the end of the war.So for you to claim your a vet of the Nam war is lower than even your post shows you to be. and as far as invading a nation and what that has to do with freedom ... my answer to that is please send me your address so I can send you a burka to wear like ALL women have to wear in that country. people should be free no matter where they live, to live the life they want. not to have it forced on them by any one person.and as I said before and I will state again... you should be thankful that you live in this country where you can put down and insult the fine men and women who have the died to give you the freedoms you take so lightly.

Level -> RE: We owe these brave people something... (10/15/2006 5:22:10 PM)
If you are speaking of Iraq, it isn't correct that "all women have to wear a burka".

defiantbadgirl -> RE: We owe these brave people something... (10/15/2006 5:33:22 PM)
http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=iic_immigrationissuecenters593f Here's one of many links about the effect of immigrants on American jobs. I'm suprised you have never heard of IT professionals losing their jobs to foreigners when this is common knowledge. In fact, I know someone who works in the computer industry.......his job is replacing American IT workers with foreigners. He does it because it's the only stable computer related job he can find.........putting other people out of jobs. I've seen the effects of immigration and outsourcing myself and I'm not even an IT worker. I have 8 years of experience working in call centers. A few years ago when I had 5 years experience, I could walk into almost any call center, tell them my experience, and be hired on the spot. Now, due to outsourcing and immigration, I'm told they have other applications and interviews to conduct. Because so many people have lost their jobs due to outsourcing and immigration, 500 people are competing for 1 job. I'm now working on earning a college degree in social work and I worry every day that I'm wasting my time. I've read thread after thread of IT workers losing their jobs, very easy to google and find.

MrrPete -> RE: We owe these brave people something... (10/15/2006 6:25:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyMorgynn Too bad they were not brave enough to stand up and say "This is WRONG and I won't go." That takes true courage that few have these days. When you enter the service you pledge your life with an oath if called upon to do so. No one joins the military EXPECTING to go into combat but it happens. If you don't want to be sent into combat don't enter the military. The time to object is BEFORE you enter service not after. I, ___________________________________, do solemly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed overme, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God. I took that oath and served 15 yrs. I was stationed in Key West FL when JFK ordered the Cuban Missile Blockade. I was 93 miles from Cuba during the whole ordeal. My first ship was sent to the Phillipines and did 45 day patrols off the coast of Viet Nam. I made two of those patrols. Our mission was to stop N. Vietnamese from running guns and ammo to the South. After that my carreer was rather uneventful. Well, it was kind of rewarding while in the med to chase a Russian submarine for several days until he had to come to the surface and recharge batteries. We were 100-150 yards apart while they were charging. We decided to have a topside BBQ and play Russian music over the topside speaker system. But I digress To break the oath of service is not a trivial matter. You will be court-martialed and receive a least an general discharge under less than honoable conditions or an outright Bad Conduct Discharge. It is posssible to be given some brig time too. It is not a brave thing to do to break your oath of service. To do so at the wrong time and place you could be facing charges of treason. I know of a concienteous objector that never carried a firearm into combat yet was awarded a Medal of Honor. Read the story of Pfc Desmond T. Doss: http://www.homeofheroes.com/profiles/profiles_doss.html

MistressCamille -> RE: We owe these brave people something... (10/15/2006 6:28:48 PM)
From the link you provided: In 1990, Congress established the number of H-1B visas at 65,000 each year. In 2000, the high tech industry pushed successfully to triple the number of available visas from the original 65,000 to 195,000 annually for FY 2001, 2002, and 2003. When FY 2004 began in October 2003, H-1B ceilings reverted to their original level of 65,000 Which means they have always limited how many immigrants get in (since 1956 actually) and now it's cut back to 1/3 of what it was in 2003. quote: A few years ago when I had 5 years experience, I could walk into almost any call center, tell them my experience, and be hired on the spot. Now, due to outsourcing and immigration, I'm told they have other applications and interviews to conduct. And you know this is because of immigration because.....

MrrPete -> RE: We owe these brave people something... (10/15/2006 7:04:48 PM)
"You base your argument on statements you've not proven. This is your chance! Show me where immigrants are costing us jobs." Proof is never required on this board. "I said it" is all the proof you need.

MrrPete -> RE: We owe these brave people something... (10/15/2006 7:22:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl Here's one of many links about the effect of immigrants on American jobs. I'm suprised you have never heard of IT professionals losing their jobs to foreigners when this is common knowledge. In fact, I know someone who works in the computer industry.......his job is replacing American IT workers with foreigners. He does it because it's the only stable computer related job he can find.........putting other people out of jobs. I've seen the effects of immigration and outsourcing myself and I'm not even an IT worker. I have 8 years of experience working in call centers. A few years ago when I had 5 years experience, I could walk into almost any call center, tell them my experience, and be hired on the spot. Now, due to outsourcing and immigration, I'm told they have other applications and interviews to conduct. Because so many people have lost their jobs due to outsourcing and immigration, 500 people are competing for 1 job. I'm now working on earning a college degree in social work and I worry every day that I'm wasting my time. I've read thread after thread of IT workers losing their jobs, very easy to google and find. You have reached the point of being "overqualified" and they don't want to pay you what your worth. American or immagrant doesn't matter if they will work for less money you won't get the job. When you talk about outsourcing you're only telling half the story. Check out INsourcing jobs too to get the full picture.

CrappyDom -> RE: We owe these brave people something... (10/15/2006 7:30:52 PM)
You two are BOTH right, it isn't immigrants "taking" American jobs, it is corporations pressuring congress to depress wages by allowing immigration. We ARE outsourcing jobs and too damn many, but it isn't muslims or hindus screwing us in the ass, it is corporations and the top 2 or 3 percent that own 1/3 of the wealthy in this country and want MORE always MORE and are willing to kill the golden goose that is America's middle class to get another buck. However, people who want to stop immigration are the EXACT ones who will bitch when tomatoes and strawberries triple in price. The ones who bitch about outsourcing all shop at frigging Walmart and whine about how unions destroyed America. You want to keep American jobs? Then you are going to have to get used to paying more for everything and making do with less. You really ready for that? What most people who whine about this issue REALLY want is to save THEIR job but buy whatever they need from China. Sorry, you got to help everyone or we all sink together. You have to educate yourself so when some slick politician starts making promises you know enough to force the debate in the right direction and if the answer seems easy, then you made the wrong choice.

ownedgirlie -> RE: We owe these brave people something... (10/15/2006 7:40:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CrappyDom You want to keep American jobs? Then you are going to have to get used to paying more for everything and making do with less. You really ready for that? What most people who whine about this issue REALLY want is to save THEIR job but buy whatever they need from China. Sorry, you got to help everyone or we all sink together. You have to educate yourself so when some slick politician starts making promises you know enough to force the debate in the right direction and if the answer seems easy, then you made the wrong choice. Hot damn, I actually agree with you about something! The auto industry is a fine example of what you're talking about. Employees wanted higher wages while the rest of us wanted to pay less for cars. It is perplexing to me to see people driving around in Hondas while sporting an American Flag bumper sticker. We spend our money on foreign made products because it is cheaper to do so, but in doing so, we shovel money right out of our own economy and into someone else's. Look around your homes - how much was made in America? Now it's true, that in the 70s American products were lacking in a major way - particularly in electronics and autos - but if we do not support our own country, aren't we just encouraging more outsourcing? Note: I didn't read the whole thread. This post caught my attention and I wanted to respond to it.

CrappyDom -> RE: We owe these brave people something... (10/15/2006 7:47:29 PM)
Okay, you may agree with me but I disagree with you on why you agree with me. People and I include myself because I am currently looking at an Acura, buy Hondas not because they are cheaper (they cost MORE) but because they are vastly more reliable and vastly more fuel effiecient. Funny thing is, many ARE made in America.

bbwcraves -> RE: We owe these brave people something... (10/15/2006 7:59:24 PM)
i've been reading this thread and i have to say i wasn't going to post. i'm sure i will get criticized and perhaps get an eye roll or two but i will put my two sense worth in. For what it is worth i guess. First off, i am a military wife, and damn proud of my husband. He's served his country, he's looked the angel of death in the eye and come out of it...nightmares, scars and all, but alive. i've waited, worried, cried, and worried some more that he wouldn't return from a deployment, that i wouldn't get that phone call that he was okay after a mission. i sat and cried and pucked my guts up when i was called and said his plane was lost and wept in relief when given the call that he was safe. Sometime i wonder if the people who fight like i see on this forum really know what it is like to be in his shoes...sometimes it makes me shake my head and sigh in sadness. He may not agree with what is being asked of him, but he does it, because to do other wise would be dishonoring what others before him have honored. Does he get discouraged? Yes, he does, i'm sure others in this war and the waste of this world we live in do. People talk out thier asses about how wrong we are for doing what is being done, and for all the talk is worth the bottom line is....our men and women are there, fighting and dying, worrying, crying, missing home. In my humble opinion, we should support them more, show them how much thier courage means, even if we disagree that they have to be there. i admire them. i also send a thanks to the other wives and spouse out there who keep them hopeful and keep the home front for their return. It isn't an easy job, but we do it. You can fight and bicker here, on this forum where you aren't dodging bullets or where you can't be called to task for your words, but its fruitless. i appauld the ones that are trying to do something, i really do. But what would matter most to the ones that are out there fighting the war you people are fighting over here is just simple support. Even if it is a word of thanks, even if you didn't agree. Yyour safe on your computers while they are out there doing what they have too. As for immigration, well i happen to think that should be cut back. i do agree with that. i also think it should be a requirement that everyone speak english, but hey that's a whole new ball of wax. Ignore what i say as you wish, tear it apart i'm sure you will. But i happen to live with someone who jumps at the sound of a gun, who has the nightmares and the sweats. i held him when he cried, and i hate it when people want to fight more then they want to stand up and say, Hey thanks, even if i don't agree with it, i do thank you. Anyway, its off my chest, be well all.

MistressCamille -> RE: We owe these brave people something... (10/15/2006 8:05:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie The auto industry is a fine example of what you're talking about. Employees wanted higher wages while the rest of us wanted to pay less for cars. It is perplexing to me to see people driving around in Hondas while sporting an American Flag bumper sticker. Honda employs over 25,000 people here in the US. They aren't strictly foreign cars any more. Indeed, most Japanese cars are finished up here in the States and give us employment. And many US cars have foreign parts in them. It's a gobal economy anymore. My own Mercury Villager has a Mitsubishi engine in it.

Playnice -> RE: We owe these brave people something... (10/15/2006 8:18:23 PM)
At the risk of a bashing here... They are doing a job. Why thank them for doing a job they signed up to do.My whole family is in the military.I don't feel the need to thank them . Or thank my Dad now retired or anyone for that matter.It's a job they signed up to do.

SlaveAkasha -> RE: We owe these brave people something... (10/15/2006 8:22:49 PM)
Please send my thanks to your husband, bbwcraves. I don't agree with the war, and won't act like I do. That doesn't make me not grateful to anyone who is, or has served in the military. My Master retired from the AirForce, my ex was in the Air Force, and one of my friends in the Army Guard. I know that they probably didn't want to serve in wars, or didn't want to get hurt, or watch others they cared about killed. They did this though, because they believed in defending the country they lived in, even if they didn't agree with the act for which they were having to serve. Even if you don't agree with any war, that's fine, that doesn't mean you can't say "thank you" to someone who did put their life on the line in the hopes of making your life better, and more protected. Akasha

ownedgirlie -> RE: We owe these brave people something... (10/15/2006 8:24:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CrappyDom Okay, you may agree with me but I disagree with you on why you agree with me. People and I include myself because I am currently looking at an Acura, buy Hondas not because they are cheaper (they cost MORE) but because they are vastly more reliable and vastly more fuel effiecient. Funny thing is, many ARE made in America. I contend that you can find an American made car that is reliable and fuel efficient. Chrysler/Dodge....GMC....Cadillac.

MasterKalif -> RE: We owe these brave people something... (10/15/2006 8:47:22 PM)
While I agree that Vets of past wars need to be given a certain measure of respect (they also need to act respectable), and recognition (I think they get it by and large), the troops today fighting this farce called "Iraqi Freedom" as some people ingeniously call it, these soldiers know what they are getting into....they were not forced by a draft like past Vets who were called to duty. However I still think they should be honored because they are making a sacrifice for some belief in following duty or doing it for their country. However, some have not acted honorably....while we can go back and forth that the Iraqi Islamist insurgents are worse or do the same, the US army needs to go by certain standards. However supporting those young men who are fighting in Iraq has nothing to do with supporting a costly, unjust and forgive me for saying it, stupid war that brings absolutely no benefits to the United States or to Iraq. This of course lies at fault of top commanders who have no idea how you have to run a country as diverse and volatile as Iraq (volatile if there is no brute force or dictator to enforce things) as well as for the ultimate responsable for this fiasco, George W. Bush.[:'(]

CrappyDom -> RE: We owe these brave people something... (10/15/2006 9:27:01 PM)
bbwcraves Are you truly saying that as long as our soldiers are fighting somewhere, that is a good thing and the rest of us should shut the fuck up? I am sorry, but Bush sent them to the wrong fucking country, it isn't there fault but I for one just can't "support" that. They ARE dying for a mistake and I can't believe you want people like me to be silent about it.

MasterKalif -> RE: We owe these brave people something... (10/15/2006 9:33:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CrappyDom bbwcraves Are you truly saying that as long as our soldiers are fighting somewhere, that is a good thing and the rest of us should shut the fuck up? I am sorry, but Bush sent them to the wrong fucking country, it isn't there fault but I for one just can't "support" that. They ARE dying for a mistake and I can't believe you want people like me to be silent about it. Amen!

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