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RE: Communism & Socialism - 10/15/2006 3:46:34 PM   
LadyEllen


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This maximum x7 of minimum wage looks good to me. This would indicate a maximum wage of around GBP 70k in the UK.
It would be easy to bring this in for public service careers - indeed many UK public service careers are geared to pay scales already, which would only require adjustment, rather than a wholesale review.

For the private sector - far more difficult, because as many have pointed out, such careers exist in a free market; if you want the best, then you have to pay an attractive and competitive salary in an international market, which can result in outrageous levels of salary when corporations are competing for a limited number of top executives. Controls here, implemented in one or a few countries, would lead to the migration of top executives to economies not under such control. We had a similar situation in the UK in the 1970s, with 90% income tax for top earners - it led to a phenomenon known as the brain drain, as those who could command a high salary, migrated to countries without such tax rates.

The only way I could see of avoiding this, would be to ensure that all members of the G8, as well as members of the EU such as the Netherlands (healthy market economies but non G8), and countries to which such top earners could easily transfer their careers because of language (Australia/N Zealand/S Africa etc), all introduced legislation to cap earnings. That said, private corporations must be free to compete for executives, so what if we introduced a 90% tax rate on earnings over the c. GBP 70k ceiling? This would allow them to compete, but not to ridiculous extent as now, given what is and is not affordable to them.

The problem with this however, is the short to medium term when those currently receiving large incomes, suddenly see their income fall. Those who have bought the London house at several million pounds, on a salary previously sufficient to meet their obligations under a mortgage, will suddenly find they cannot afford these houses - and neither can anyone else when they come to the point of having to sell. We would therefore see top executives bankrupted, and ergo rendered legally incompetent to run a UK corporation, because of their bankruptcy. The bankers who gave the mortgages in the first place will repossess these houses, and find that in the new economy, their value has decreased to such an extent and that there are so many of them, that the banks will suffer heavy losses, to recoup which they will have to increase the mortgage rate on those lower earners who also have mortgages, increase their loan and credit card charges, and decrease their savings and investments rates.

We must also bear in mind, that the sudden reduction in salary costs at the top end of a corporation, will not be of any benefit to those further down in the organisation. The corporation will smile with glee at having saved a lot of money for redistribution to its shareholders, not to its workforce. Indeed, there is the possibility that corporations will seize the chance to adjust downwards the salaries of all workers - if the chief executive can only earn GBP 70k, then why pay middle management anything more than say, 35k? and junior management 20k, and clerical staff and the rest minimum wage only?

Also, the excessive spending capacity of top executives being removed, the banks will experience a loss in money they formerly invested for top executives - money some of which was loaned to those further down in society in former times. Also, with no more excessive spending possible by these top executives, many businesses which rely on them will fold - restaurants, stores, car dealers etc, as well as the likes of cleaners, cooks and the host of people such high earners employ.

Eventually of course, the economy would probably stabilise, but only after causing a lot of pain - and not only to the top earners, but to everyone.

In short, I like the principle, but would like to know how it could be made to work, without hurting all of us?

E





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RE: Communism & Socialism - 10/15/2006 4:17:36 PM   
Level


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Hmm, Lady E. All good and valid points, ones which I'll come back to, after some thinking. Well... the x7 is just a starting point, it could be raised, say to x10, or x15? And a boost in the minimum wage perhaps.... and the extra earnings you spoke of, could be redistributed to public works?
 
And definitely, there would need to be a uniformity, as you said, to prevent a brain-drain.

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RE: Communism & Socialism - 10/15/2006 7:17:19 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

I think (correct me if I am wrong) that you are pretty much way to the left of socialism?  Anyway, I find it interesting that you post the above which to ME is why I have never believed that true communisim could ever work.  Women are attracted to power/money and because of that men will always strive to have it. 


I think you mistake attraction to personal power with wealth. Of course some will be attracted to the trappings of power, but in our long evolutionary history this has been expressed in different ways, where wealth redistribution upon the death of an individual was seen as a leveling mechanism whereby equalibrium was acheived within communities... in other words people were not allowed to attain wealth and power generationally back in the day we were hunters and gathers and tribal peoples, because this would be bad for survival of the group

Of course when too many young studs cropped up this was often a reason for the older gentlemen to start a war and send them off to die, more chickies for them....

By and large most girls would rather latch on to a young virile guy to sire their offspring that seems to be capable of providing a living moreso than some man that has dried up swimmers that cannot impregnate them as easily or satisfy them sexually speaking.

In one study they randomly tested DNA of new mothers, their babies, and their husbands. It turned out that 15% of the offspring were not the biological offspring of the husbands... this would suggest a large number of women are out getting pregnant by men not their husbands. Birds mate for life also, they have the same percentage of hatchlings not borne of their mate.... interesting little side line.

I think that by and large egaltarian living was the staple of human kind in their prehistory. Small groups are naturally more communistic for their survival. I sometimes ponder if we will run ourselves into extinction because the base instincts of human beings and shortsightedness of human beings will trump their desire to count on one another and survive... it could easily come to either we live more communally or we perish as a species... who knows when that choice will be necessary or if it will be necessary...personally from what I have seen, it is necessary right now.

Your argument is shared by many, and is far from "wrong", but it is rather ethnocentric too and culturally specific. The way I see it we can change our ways willingly or die... adapt or perish... you get the picture, living with the system we have in place will never work either in the long term... so whats a person to do?


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RE: Communism & Socialism - 10/15/2006 9:38:14 PM   
MasterKalif


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Ive read this post, and see no connection or real discussion on the core "values" (or lack of) in communism and socialism, and what it may mean to different people....the Soviet Union called themselves socialists, but socialists in Sweden and Finland were and are very different than "those" socialists (I like to call them old school socialists or by their realistic name of communism)....how id this related to hot young women seeking men with power and money?

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RE: Communism & Socialism - 10/15/2006 10:29:53 PM   
subfever


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterKalif

Ive read this post, and see no connection or real discussion on the core "values" (or lack of) in communism and socialism, and what it may mean to different people....the Soviet Union called themselves socialists, but socialists in Sweden and Finland were and are very different than "those" socialists (I like to call them old school socialists or by their realistic name of communism)....how id this related to hot young women seeking men with power and money?


That's what I was thinking too.

Maybe we should charge Crappy with false advertising...

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RE: Communism & Socialism - 10/16/2006 12:38:17 AM   
Kedicat


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I think the concept is too simplified both male/female wants and capitalism/communism.

In it's ultimate perfection, capitalism would be almost indistiguishable from socialism. Monopoly is the goal. Own all, supply all. And at that point, it would be as bad as the 5 year planned socialist supply schemes. Monopoly ceases to properly supply demand.

As for females looking for power. It is similar to males. Sometimes they seek the raw sexual, whatever that may be to them. Other times, the provider. Other times the care giver, for self and offspring. The gender point of view, gives different aspects to all those people at different times.

Variety is the spice of life, economics, governance. A rigid ism never works. But rules are required. Rules make the game worth playing. Rules make the game winnable, or at least able to keep score. Be it relationships, economics, governments.

The sad thing, is when those who might have the upper hand at some point, squash even the possibility of another game being played out fairly. We have often been robbed of the opportunity to see a good game played out on a good fair field.

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RE: Communism & Socialism - 10/16/2006 7:47:04 AM   
cloudboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterKalif

Ive read this post, and see no connection or real discussion on the core "values" (or lack of) in communism and socialism, and what it may mean to different people....the Soviet Union called themselves socialists, but socialists in Sweden and Finland were and are very different than "those" socialists (I like to call them old school socialists or by their realistic name of communism)....how id this related to hot young women seeking men with power and money?


Its quite complex to trace the development of Communism in Russia-the USSR.

A strong case could be made that the USSR's ideology of Communism was no more than a subterfuge for power agrandizement by its leadership.

First power had to be siezed for a chance to install Communism (Lenin).

Next, power had to be enhanced to fight two wars: WWI and a Civil War.

During all three episodes power had to be used to eliminate Bolshevic opponents and rivals.

During the 1920s there was a brief recess from brutality under the NEP, but soon thereafter in the late 20s, power was again used by Stalin to eliminate opponents and rivals within Russia's own Communist party.

After so much time of "building communism" by eliminating oponents, rivals, and fellow Communist Party members, the "building" part completely gave way to the elimination part. In the end, the NKVD was much more functional and effective than the Collective Farms.

The question still remains, how might (or could have) those collective farms have operated without the NKVD?

As a small addendum to that question, it is worth noting that when Stalin died, the first thing Kruschev and his fellow politburo members did was eliminate Beria, the then head of the secret police. They killed him, I believe, within 48 hours of Stalin's death (or after his funeral.)

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 10/16/2006 7:48:43 AM >

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RE: Communism & Socialism - 10/16/2006 8:39:41 AM   
juliaoceania


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What happened in Russia was not truly communism. It was totalitarianism....True communism has never existed in the form of a nation-state


So when people say it will not work, it has never been done.

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 10/16/2006 8:40:08 AM >


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RE: Communism & Socialism - 10/16/2006 4:17:31 PM   
MasterKalif


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
Its quite complex to trace the development of Communism in Russia-the USSR.

A strong case could be made that the USSR's ideology of Communism was no more than a subterfuge for power agrandizement by its leadership.

First power had to be siezed for a chance to install Communism (Lenin).

Next, power had to be enhanced to fight two wars: WWI and a Civil War.

During all three episodes power had to be used to eliminate Bolshevic opponents and rivals.

During the 1920s there was a brief recess from brutality under the NEP, but soon thereafter in the late 20s, power was again used by Stalin to eliminate opponents and rivals within Russia's own Communist party.

After so much time of "building communism" by eliminating oponents, rivals, and fellow Communist Party members, the "building" part completely gave way to the elimination part. In the end, the NKVD was much more functional and effective than the Collective Farms.

The question still remains, how might (or could have) those collective farms have operated without the NKVD?

As a small addendum to that question, it is worth noting that when Stalin died, the first thing Kruschev and his fellow politburo members did was eliminate Beria, the then head of the secret police. They killed him, I believe, within 48 hours of Stalin's death (or after his funeral.)


I agree in that utopian communism as proposed by Marx coul dbe argued that it has never existed and that Marxism-Leninism as the base of Soviet communism was called, was flawed in that it even supported some nationalism (read the creation of supposedly "independent" nationalities with their own state....) and even some nationalism was needed later in use for WWII. The fact is, collective farms and the communist economic system itself can only be supported by force...the only time I believe when this doesn't have to be is when a state or government is awash in money and can maintain something like that without fear, or if they had unlimited supply of oil....and even then it can still be a shambles and not be workable or profitable. Furthermore, to install the system in place, as you correctly pointed out, would still require force and power to make it happen as people are not willing to give up their wealth (whether it was earned fairly or not according to communist aparatchiks) or their freedoms for a supposedly conceived but not felt better good for everyone.

The closest thing I can think of a budding communist system that didn't have "excessive" force or brutality (that would have come at a later stage) was Chile's Popular Unity government, a strange mix of old school socialists, communists and populists and others who wanted to jump in the bandwagon in case they won for good, led by Dr. Salvador Allende Gossens....of course, this "experiment" only lastd 1,000 days (1970 to 1973) and ended badly for all concerned.... 

< Message edited by MasterKalif -- 10/16/2006 4:18:07 PM >

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RE: Communism & Socialism - 10/16/2006 4:23:45 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

The closest thing I can think of a budding communist system that didn't have "excessive" force or brutality (that would have come at a later stage) was Chile's Popular Unity government, a strange mix of old school socialists, communists and populists and others who wanted to jump in the bandwagon in case they won for good, led by Dr. Salvador Allende Gossens....of course, this "experiment" only lastd 1,000 days (1970 to 1973) and ended badly for all concerned.... 


Successful communism would not be allowed to continue if the USA has any voice in it, and that is why Kissinger supported the murderous coup against Allende and his government

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 10/16/2006 4:24:07 PM >


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RE: Communism & Socialism - 10/16/2006 4:39:03 PM   
MasterKalif


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

The closest thing I can think of a budding communist system that didn't have "excessive" force or brutality (that would have come at a later stage) was Chile's Popular Unity government, a strange mix of old school socialists, communists and populists and others who wanted to jump in the bandwagon in case they won for good, led by Dr. Salvador Allende Gossens....of course, this "experiment" only lastd 1,000 days (1970 to 1973) and ended badly for all concerned.... 


Successful communism would not be allowed to continue if the USA has any voice in it, and that is why Kissinger supported the murderous coup against Allende and his government


juliaoceania, you give too much credit to the US.....Allende's government set themselves up for the downfall....Mr. Allende by looking the other way while leftist urban guerrillas who supposedly were supporting him but thought he was too "soft" or "conservative" would do whatever they wanted and avoid jail....as well as for terribly mismanaging the local economy to the point of not even having meat in grocery stores...I dunno, seems like he pissed off a lot of people that could have supported him or wouldn't have minded too much.

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RE: Communism & Socialism - 10/16/2006 4:48:32 PM   
meatcleaver


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If I was dictator for a day I would make every student read both The Wealth Of Nations by Adam Smith and Das Kapital by Marx. Both are must reads and compliment each other, along with literary classics which portray the negatives of capitalism and communism. Ignorance and blind ideology are what keeps us in our place and in fear of alternative ways to live.

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RE: Communism & Socialism - 10/16/2006 4:50:47 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterKalif

juliaoceania, you give too much credit to the US.....Allende's government set themselves up for the downfall....Mr. Allende by looking the other way while leftist urban guerrillas who supposedly were supporting him but thought he was too "soft" or "conservative" would do whatever they wanted and avoid jail....as well as for terribly mismanaging the local economy to the point of not even having meat in grocery stores...I dunno, seems like he pissed off a lot of people that could have supported him or wouldn't have minded too much.


Perhaps but what did it have to do with the USA? They could have overthrown just about any South American government for being incompetent and corrupt, why choose Chile?

Of course we all know why.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 10/16/2006 4:51:21 PM >

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RE: Communism & Socialism - 10/16/2006 4:53:20 PM   
MasterKalif


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Perhaps but what did it have to do with the USA? They could have overthrown just about any South American government for being incompetent and corrupt, why choose Chile?

Of course we all know why.


well meatcleaver that is my point, Allende's overthrow and the reasons why he was overthrown have nothing to do with the USA or even Kissinger's silly comments about the Allende government. The US tried to get involved, but only ended up throwing more coal in an existing fire, and was not the determinant of the outcome (the coup), which was planned locally. The Allende government was "incopetent" not corrupt.

Chile was worrisome for US foreign policy for several reasons....one of them being that it was one of the strongest constitutional democracy in the region, and the US was worried about a "domino effect" that if chile went communist, this would only help spread it to other neighboring countries, such as Argentina (they had a coup in 1976).

hence Chile was important for Nixon for those reasons as well as minor economic interests such as the ITT company and others.

< Message edited by MasterKalif -- 10/16/2006 4:57:09 PM >

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RE: Communism & Socialism - 10/16/2006 6:04:27 PM   
juliaoceania


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In my South American studies I learned that the 100s of coups in that region of the world usually came back to US interests and US sponsorship. Your assertion that the Allende government would have been overturned with or without tacit approval by the USA is hard to prove, but the fact of the matter is that we do influence politics and economics in the region either overtly or covertly.

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RE: Communism & Socialism - 10/16/2006 7:48:18 PM   
UtopianRanger


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

The closest thing I can think of a budding communist system that didn't have "excessive" force or brutality (that would have come at a later stage) was Chile's Popular Unity government, a strange mix of old school socialists, communists and populists and others who wanted to jump in the bandwagon in case they won for good, led by Dr. Salvador Allende Gossens....of course, this "experiment" only lastd 1,000 days (1970 to 1973) and ended badly for all concerned.... 


Successful communism would not be allowed to continue if the USA has any voice in it, and that is why Kissinger supported the murderous coup against Allende and his government


George Schultz and Kissinger were indeed the chief tacticians behind the infiltration / poisoning of the Allende government with the ''Chicago Boyz'' economic school of thought. Their sycophants convinced many of the Allende backer /cabinet members that ''Nationalizing'' their economic interests would never make anyone rich.

 A similar, but bloodless coup is happening right now in Mexico, with a great probability that the Neocon’s Mexican counterpart / equivalent, Calderon,  will pursue the same practice of privatization of all state-owned enterprises – It’s another ''no bid'' oligopoly run amok



 - R

< Message edited by UtopianRanger -- 10/16/2006 7:50:17 PM >


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RE: Communism & Socialism - 10/16/2006 10:54:02 PM   
MasterKalif


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good point, and actually I do agree with your statement that the US was behind most if not more than 90% of the coups in the region, and the USSR was behind most guerrilla movements hence the territory becoming a front for the cold war. however, I do beg to differ in some cases, like Chile, Argentina and Uruguay, I think it is just as hard to prove that the coups in these countries happened because of a decisive act on behalf of the United States; notice I am not saying they weren't in those countries or actively trying to meddle (covertly in these three countries), but that they were just one more factor among many internal ones that made those coups possible. Allende had many internal enemies, including the large middle class who were not happy with his regime, in terms of spiralling inflation, clampdown on the opposition press, and a long etc.

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RE: Communism & Socialism - 10/16/2006 11:37:19 PM   
juliaoceania


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If you study the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund it may prove illuminating to you the tools at the disposal of capitalists to make sure that markets remain open along with big business friendly leaders to keep the trade flowing. Really Read Confessions of an Economic Hitman for starters.

Now a lot of people would approve of the measures to keep markets open in the interest of MNCs and ignore the interests of people that live in the countries we seek to control, but really, people should have a right to true democracy, even if they choose a socialistic government that answers to them and not big business

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RE: Communism & Socialism - 10/18/2006 8:27:14 AM   
Amaros


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

How you dovetailed women's lust for rich powerful men into the feasibility of a Communist System I'll never know.

I'll say this:

1. Unregulated Capitalism tends toward monopoly.

2. Public institutions tend toward ineffieciency.

3. The solution is to hybrid the two. Its a grey area question best answered on a case by case basis as opposed to a strict ideological orientation.

In concrete terms its about setting a fair tax rate to fund gov't, open up opp't to the general public, while not killing consumer consumption and incentives for businesses to operate.

The problem in the US is the corruption of Congress, which leads to poor allocation of our tax dollars. The poor allocation of tax dollars increases the likelihood of tax increases (to make up for the inefficiencies) and decreases the population's trust and belief in gov't competence.

Measures that I think could help include:

1. A line item Veto

2. Some kind of balanced budget provision or new congressional voting formula for deficit spending (requiring a higher percentage of votes.)

3. Requiring that Congress declare war before the U.S. invades and occupies other nations.

4. Public funding of the election system to undercut special interest lobbyists.

5. Introduction of some referendum voting allowances to bypass our need for Congress altogether on some broad based govenment budget issues.


All good suggestions, although I always liked Kevin Phillips idea, which was to move the entire government appatatus to Denver, and not tell the lobbyists.

Take about ten minutes for Denver to get just as bad though.

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RE: Communism & Socialism - 10/18/2006 8:36:49 AM   
Amaros


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dtesmoac

Most parents want to see their children have a better life etc than they had, particularly if you come from a background with very little. Whilst I find it galling that a lot of people I know had rich mummy & daddy, help pay of University debt and provide down payment on mortgaes I do not think it is a strong enough reason to demotivate a wider group of people by saying "when you die I (we ) the state will steal all that you have been unable to squander during your life".  Allow reasonable transfer of wealth to the next generation and then make sure you tax the hell out of the SUPER RICH, after they die..........

NB - how would you deal with sentimental items that have great value which should be passed from mother to daughter of father to son etc.......if all inheritance was stopped?


Please, inheritence tax laws are designed to tax large amounts of capital - most assets are not taxed under the old inheritence tax laws, i.e., if you inherit a business that consists mostly of physical asets, property, farm machinery, etc. these things are not taxed unless you sell them for cash, which is taxed, and there is a pretty large "deductible", i.e., inherited wealth was only taxed above a certain amount, which I believe was in the 200K or better range, which would cover all but the largest of businesses.

In other words, inheritance taxes were never designed to discourage people from handing down heirlooms, or even entire businesses, family farms, etc. with the intention of keeping them in business - it's a tax on transfers of capital, just like any other cash transfer.

The people that bitch about it are the trust fund politicos who've never worked a day in their life, but need that inheritance to fund their campaigns, and their large political contributers, ADM, etc.

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