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We Had No Idea - 10/18/2006 10:05:36 AM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline 		 
Hello A/all,

The following was sent to me and I wanted to pass it along to the citizens of the State of California.  Measures like it are probably coming to your state soon enough, but in the next election here we have to face this...

Sinergy

-------------------------------------------





From: "Robert Redford, NRDC" <[email protected]>


Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 13:06:13 -0400 (EDT)






Dear NRDC BioGems Defender,

"We had no idea."

You're going to hear that a lot if Proposition 90 passes next month. Millions
of people are going to wake up the morning after Election Day and wish they'd
read the fine print.

Please don't be one of them.

Prop 90 is the single most dangerous threat that has ever been leveled at our
state's environment. As a native and long-time resident of California, I don't
say that lightly.

Prop 90 will make it virtually impossible for our state and local governments
to do their job of protecting the wildlife, wild lands and other natural
resources that make California the special place that it is.

The way Prop 90 works is simple. Anytime our government wants to protect some vestige of open space or save an old growth forest or restrict offshore oil
drilling, Prop 90 would empower hordes of people to sue the government and
collect compensation if they feel their properties or businesses have been
compromised.

If Prop 90 is enacted, environmental protection will grind to a halt, because
we the taxpayers will be unable to afford the billions and billions in payouts.
And guess what? Paralyzing government is exactly what Prop 90 aims to do.

This cynical ploy is so insidious -- and yet potentially popular -- because
it's masquerading as a law that will protect our homes and businesses from
government seizure under the power of eminent domain.

Well, I'll be first in line to defend private property and protest government
seizure. But not if the "cure" is a hundred times worse than the disease!

Prop 90 is nothing but a stalking horse for a group of out-of-state, anti-
government extremists who would impoverish Californians both environmentally
and financially.

Don't wake up the morning after Election Day and wish you'd read the fine
print. Read it now at http://www.noProp90.com/

And make sure your friends, family and colleagues in California read it, too.
Please forward them this email right now.

NRDC has joined with a broad coalition of citizen groups who are fighting hard
to turn back this unprecedented attack on our environment. (You can see the
full list of opponents at http://www.noprop90.com/coalition/index.php)

Please do your part by spreading the word to everyone you know. Tell them to
vote "No on 90" on Election Day.

Sincerely,

Robert Redford

P.S. Newspapers across the state are urging a No vote on 90. You can read their
editorials at
http://www.noprop90.com/media/articles/?set=article_j6dcq2bwmxw4ax

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

Profile   Post #: 1
RE: We Had No Idea - 10/18/2006 10:21:49 AM   
Emperor1956


Posts: 2370
Joined: 11/7/2005
Status: offline 		Sinergy (and others):  California's Prop 90 is a response to a controversial, recent US Supreme Court decision, and is also a conservative anti-government attempt to protect landowners from government intrusion.

In June, 2005, the US Supreme Court decided Kelo v. City of New London in a 5-4 decision.  It was a surprise to many that the basically conservative Rhenquist court upheld the ability of local governments to force property owners to sell and make way for private economic development when officials decide it would benefit the public.  A very good, simple analysis of the case is found at http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/23/AR2005062300783.html

When Mr. Redford says "it's masquerading as a law that will protect our homes and businesses from government seizure under the power of eminent domain" he is correct:  Prop 90 attempts to totally eliminate the ability of a local government to seize property through eminent domain for economic purposes (as allowed in the Kelo case) by making the process almost impossibly expensive.  The good news is that it looks like it will not pass, but you are correct that people have to be educated to vote "NO" (and then actually go and vote.)

E.

_____________________________

"When you wake up, Pooh," said Piglet, "what's the first thing you say?"
"What's for breakfast? What do you say, Piglet?"
"I say, I wonder what's going to happen exciting today?"
Pooh nodded thoughtfully.
"It's the same thing," he said.

(in reply to Sinergy)
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RE: We Had No Idea - 10/18/2006 10:43:03 AM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		Funny how their is no link in the article to the actual text of the proposition so we can easily do as they suggest and read the source document. That always leads me to suspect a group is less than honest in their opposition to the proposition.

Why would anyone beg you to read the proposition and not provide a direct link?

(in reply to Emperor1956)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: We Had No Idea - 10/18/2006 11:00:42 AM   
MstrDouglas


Posts: 75
Joined: 11/15/2005
Status: offline 		My state has a simular proposal on the ballot this year.  I have read my states proposal and it is nothing like what they are saying it is for CA.  I would suggest checking your state web site, there should be a link there to any and all ballot proposals, so you can read them for yourself.  Went to the ca.gov web site, entered proposition 90 and got this link
http://www.coastal.ca.gov/leginfo/Prop90-CCCAnalysis.pdf

Interesting reading, it IS basically the same as my states, and I will be voting FOR it, not against it.

< Message edited by MstrDouglas -- 10/18/2006 11:12:44 AM >

(in reply to Archer)
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RE: We Had No Idea - 10/18/2006 11:06:32 AM   
Kaledorus


Posts: 95
Joined: 9/4/2006
Status: offline
quote:

Robert Redford


He lives in Utah and New York City.
He is an elitist.
The environment of America cannot be saved despite what these Democrats say, with a projected population of one billion by end of this century, almost exclusively 3rd World immigrants,  the environmentalists will find, if the elitists still live in the U.S. that the degradation will be  beyond repair.

(in reply to Sinergy)
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RE: We Had No Idea - 10/18/2006 11:19:20 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Funny how their is no link in the article to the actual text of the proposition so we can easily do as they suggest and read the source document. That always leads me to suspect a group is less than honest in their opposition to the proposition.

Why would anyone beg you to read the proposition and not provide a direct link?


If you go to that link under "get facts" you will find the full text of the initiative.. took me all of 30 seconds to find it if that... I am certain that most people have brains enough tofind it on the site itself.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: We Had No Idea - 10/18/2006 11:38:41 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		Here is my opinion, I do not like government taking people's private property for walmart for example, but I think it is valuable for state government to make sure the common environment is taken care of. Anything that allows citizens to sue the ass off of state government (meaning I have to pay for it) is a bad idea...

I think that this law could be a good one if it addressed local governement taking land for corporate use and not for public use... public use of lands is what emminent domain laws are for... roads, schools, and hospitals... not for walmart...

I usually vote no on every proposition anyways.. Californians pass spending bills all too often and then bitch about state spending... they cannot see that they are a part of the problem when in every election they approve more mandatory spending with their votes.... 85% of spending in this state was enacted due to voters checking "yes"... if they did not bitch about taxes it would not annoy me to much... but we californians DO bitch.

So  vote no on everything

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: We Had No Idea - 10/18/2006 12:13:23 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaledorus

quote:

Robert Redford


He lives in Utah and New York City.
He is an elitist.
The environment of America cannot be saved despite what these Democrats say, with a projected population of one billion by end of this century, almost exclusively 3rd World immigrants,  the environmentalists will find, if the elitists still live in the U.S. that the degradation will be  beyond repair.



His ranch is in Montana, outside a little town called Livingston.  I have eaten dinner two tables away from him at Chico Hot Springs.

Not sure he has a place in Utah as well.

Just me, could be wrong, but there you go.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to Kaledorus)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: We Had No Idea - 10/18/2006 12:22:43 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Funny how their is no link in the article to the actual text of the proposition so we can easily do as they suggest and read the source document. That always leads me to suspect a group is less than honest in their opposition to the proposition.

Why would anyone beg you to read the proposition and not provide a direct link?


Interesting complaint, although I am a bit puzzled by it.  If you read the original post, there is a link at the bottom.

www.noprop90.com

Enjoy!

Just me, could be wrong, but there you go.

Sinergy

p.s. to the poster who indicated that Robert Redford lives in Utah and New York.  He also has a home in California.  Many wealthy people have multiple homes in different places.  Johnny Depp owns a home outside of Hollywood and a home in the south of France.

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: We Had No Idea - 10/18/2006 12:26:11 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		A quick read fails to note anything like the gloom and doom the anti site is screaming about.
But I'm not a lawyer. Seems pretty straight forward to me Defines what is ap[propriate emminent domain, what will not be considered a legitimate public use.
Allows for "Just compensation" for damages to privately owned land due to the Government using emminent domain to condem a neighboring proprty. (IE compensation for my loss f property value should the government install a landfill 100 ft from my propety line.)

Nothing in there seems to be near the gloom and doom the letter suggests to me

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: We Had No Idea - 10/18/2006 12:27:42 PM   
amativedame


Posts: 331
Joined: 9/23/2005
Status: offline 		Two things so many people around the world fail to realize... when you read things like this you are only getting half the story.  You think that person is giving you all of the facts?  They want to get you on their side... doing it is what important to them.. not necessarily how.

This email pushes their agenda to no end, something that in itself should make you question every word they are saying.  Every word is dripping from an incredibly extremist view and has no factual information to back it up. can anyone say huge red flags?  And those news articles?  Funny, I don't recognize any of those papers are valuable sources.  Little papers that could be run from anywhere and are not held to any kind of high standard what so ever.

God forbid you still have property rights and they restrict the government! I know a landowner who would love to have ad this law in NJ.  That would mean the city couldn't have taken his farm under "open space preservation" who turned around and sold it to Walgreens and made 3 times as much as they gave him for it.  That proposition would protect that! This isn't uncommon either... I literally know three people that I am directly involved with who have had issues like this.  Seems like the people opposing it are the "big business types" who want the ability to do this and are simply just trying to manipulate voters.  Why on earth would you not want to restrict the governments rights on property?  Sure, you could say funding would go down because people could sue, but what about the people who should be able to sue?  You going to walk up to them and say "tough luck that you lost your house to that shopping mall buddy, but I really love shopping there."
Weren't we just complaining how walmart kills small businesses?  What do you think this does?

I fail to see the impact on the environment.  One of their claims is the limited open space preservation that could happen, since they would have to pay more for the land.  Do you people realize how little open space preservation pays landowners?  Its about 2/3 of what the property is REALLY worth.  People who sell their land to open space preservation aren't making money, they loose vast amounts of it. 

The argument against it doesn't even tell you why its bad, it just focuses on how they are deceiving voters and taxpayers.  Yet it never really tells you what the bait and switch is. 

_____________________________

Always remember that great love and great achievements both involve great risk.

(in reply to Sinergy)
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RE: We Had No Idea - 10/18/2006 12:30:22 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		Yes it does provide a link but that is not to the source document it is to a biased anti site where after a little time you can find the source document. But they make sure you have seen their side of the argument before you see the text, the subliminal message and bias has time to get through.

I much prefer a letter to be sent with a direct non partisan link to the text of the source document. That's all.

< Message edited by Archer -- 10/18/2006 12:32:23 PM >

(in reply to Archer)
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RE: We Had No Idea - 10/18/2006 12:39:29 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

I much prefer a letter to be sent with a direct non partisan link to the text of the source document. That's all.



I suspect that would have been a better way to elucidate your comment, rather than insisting I failed to provide a link.

I did provide a link to a biased site, which had a link on it to the actual text of the law being proposed.  The text of the law is not biased in the same way the web site is.  It is simply a statement of a proposed ballot measure.

Sinergy


_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: We Had No Idea - 10/18/2006 12:57:29 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		Actually it would have been better had you not chose to personalize the criticism of the letter you didn't write.

The criticism was directed at the letter and unless you wrote the letter and attributed it to Mr Redford then it was never directed at you.


(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: We Had No Idea - 10/18/2006 1:47:54 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Actually it would have been better had you not chose to personalize the criticism of the letter you didn't write.

The criticism was directed at the letter and unless you wrote the letter and attributed it to Mr Redford then it was never directed at you.




Actually, Archer, the link to the web site and the law it is stating was in the letter which was written by Robert Redford for the noprop90 group, not me.

Let me know if you need me to quote Robert Redford's words detailing the URL for you again.

I suspect what happened was that you assumed it was a bunch of liberal nonsense and did not bother to read Mr. Redford's letter or research what was stated on the web site he provided you.

But that is just me and I could be wrong.

Sinergy


_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: We Had No Idea - 10/18/2006 2:04:59 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Funny how their is no link in the article to the actual text of the proposition so we can easily do as they suggest and read the source document. That always leads me to suspect a group is less than honest in their opposition to the proposition.

Why would anyone beg you to read the proposition and not provide a direct link?


Where in that was anything at all about you not providing anything at all?????????
You provided the article that you had. I critiqued the article itself not your posting of it.
Had I had a problem with your posting it I would have said YOU should have provided a link.

I recognized that it wasn't your work and thought that the unless you wrote it and attributed it to the other guy would have made that crystal clear.

Did I read the website NO in fact the first post was my reasoning for not reading it. As I stated earlier I prefer direct links (defined as not routing me through a partisan site to build their lobby sales ability based on number of hits their site has, before I can reach it)
I did go and do a quick scan/ read for general context of the actual source document.


(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: We Had No Idea - 10/18/2006 2:11:31 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		BTW the veiled very thinly personal shots are beneath you

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: We Had No Idea - 10/18/2006 2:13:26 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

BTW the veiled very thinly personal shots are beneath you


I did not see anything he said as a personal shot

Although I have seen you insinuate this before with people that debated you, getting them all upset and then accusing them of being out of control

Common debate tactic I have witnessed again and again on political forums...and one I have seen you use on others that post here

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: We Had No Idea - 10/18/2006 2:14:20 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

Let me know if you need me to quote Robert Redford's words detailing the URL for you again.

Sinergy


(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: We Had No Idea - 10/18/2006 2:16:19 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

Let me know if you need me to quote Robert Redford's words detailing the URL for you again.

Sinergy




And that is not an argumentative ad hominem way of discussion...LOLOLOLOL

again.. whatever... I could dig up the use of the same tactic against crappydom

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 20
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