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RiotGirl -> in general? (1/25/2005 7:18:10 PM)
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FangsNfeet -> RE: in general? (1/25/2005 7:26:24 PM)
General sense, common sense, nonsense, a 6th sense. You get it all when you wish to learn something here on the message boards. Who here is not allowed to speak about the general sense of things? I would like some names and who told them they couldn't bring up the subject. If it's always relative, then aren't we answering the question? Aren't they getting the best way to go about something? I may be way off topic here. So if you would, post some example of the problem you are seeing and I and others may be able to give you more insight answering your questions.

domtimothy46176 -> RE: in general? (1/25/2005 7:32:30 PM)
Perhaps you're missing the underlying message. No one else can tell you the best way to live your life. The idea of there being "one right way" is fallacy. I could tell you my way is the only correct, best, appropriate way to live and in someways I might even be right if you are like me in those areas. That doesn't mean you would be wrong if you found something that suited you better in other ways. Does that make sense? Timothy quote: ORIGINAL: RiotGirl i dont get it, how are we supposed to learn about anything or figure out the best way to go about something if its always relative to the participants involved? How are we supposed to gain any insight if no one can ever speak about the general sense of things?

siamsa24 -> RE: in general? (1/25/2005 7:58:36 PM)
When I ask about things I generally just listen to what everyone has to say, ask for clarification if needed and respond to particularly good thoughts or ideas. I think pick what I think would work for me. Sometimes it's many things, sometimes it's only one or two, but I always learn something. I think it's much like the areas of psychology and sociology, nothing can ever represent the whole population, but we do our best [:D]

BlkTallFullfig -> RE: in general? (1/25/2005 8:49:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RiotGirl i dont get it, how are we supposed to learn about anything or figure out the best way to go about something if its always relative to the participants involved? How are we supposed to gain any insight if no one can ever speak about the general sense of things? Sorry you're frustrated Riotgirl, but I think if you remain patient, read books (some recommended by people here), know yourself well, pay attention to what people say, and apply common sense as Fangs indicated, you'll find your way. Indeed, as DomTimothy points out, no one can really tell you how to live your life (well unless you become a collared slave, lol). M

Suleiman -> RE: in general? (1/25/2005 10:32:43 PM)
Practice, my dear riotgirl, sheer, mind-numbing (and in some cases ass-numbing) repetition. We listen to the opinions of others on various subjects, decide (if we have no opinion ourselves) what makes sense to us personally, and then go out and attempt to put the theory into practice. If the theory fails under laboratory conditions, we revise the hypothesis and possibly seek further input. Nobody can tell you what is right for you other than yourself. It's that whole blind men and elephants thing.

siamsa24 -> RE: in general? (1/26/2005 6:03:17 AM)
quote: Nobody can tell you what is right for you other than yourself. It's that whole blind men and elephants thing. I love that story, it's very true and one of the few fables that makes sense in everyday life [:)]

sweetpleaser -> RE: in general? (1/26/2005 7:11:00 AM)
I believe I know what you mean. When we post we are sometimes reminded by others "it might not be your kink", like it is a touchy subject. One time I posted about poly situations and you should have heard 'em! I have put my opinions out there a few times and have been told that, but I still post anyway--just to annoy everyone, hehe. I am not pushing my views on others. I never put anyone down, but I have my own opinions and I think it is healthy to express various ideas. Readers can take them or leave them.

MemphisDsCouple -> RE: in general? (1/26/2005 9:05:06 AM)
In a couple of short sentences/questions you have written some of the highest wisdom I've read about d/s, s&m, bdsm in a long, long time. How are you/we supposed to learn from others while we're "here"? Stick with the ones who do not write: I can define "it" any way I like. Stick with the ones who call a slave chattel and stop there. Stick with the ones who say 24/7 means 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, and stop right there. They don't qualify. They don't hedge. They don't murk up the waters. I guess they're not afraid to take a stand and call a spade a spade. As for the rest.... as you so insightfully point out, once they say you/we can define anything any way we like - they have turned anything they (or anyone else) says, thinks, observes or deduces into meaningless, pointless, empty blathering. You stick with the insightfulness you show here and you'll have a full and meaningful life, that's my prediction. quote: ORIGINAL: RiotGirl i dont get it, how are we supposed to learn about anything or figure out the best way to go about something if its always relative to the participants involved? How are we supposed to gain any insight if no one can ever speak about the general sense of things? Postscript: You are welcome to print or save this post for your own use. Please do not copy it to any public or semi-public forum (including email groups/lists) without my express permission. Thanks. All rights reserved. (I write this postscript because after-the-fact someone wrote to me to inform me that they had copied a prior post I wrote to another list. So, I thought I'd better clarify what my preference/policy is regarding use of what I write.) B. (the male half of MemphisDsCouple)

perverseangelic -> RE: in general? (1/26/2005 9:08:51 AM)
I think there's a difference between saying "Here is the right way to use a branding iron (or tool-x)" and "here is the right way to conduct a mistress-slave relationship." In the first case, there's an obvious answer because it's something concrete, material, tangible, and most would agree, generally used in the same manner. Of course there's a correct way to use it, and anyone who knows what they're doing could probably tell you. In the second, it doesn't invovle the manipulation of objects in the world. Because you have two people invovled, who may have perspectives much different than the people commenting, there's no way to know the "correct" way. I think that the only thing you can know is what's correct for you, because that's the only subjective experience you have. I don't entirely support "your kink isn't my kink but it's still ok" because I think that there are things that aren't ok, however in general, people are just too different for there to be one correct way, or even the "best" way to conduct interpersonal relationships.

RiotGirl -> RE: in general? (1/26/2005 7:09:03 PM)
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ProtagonistLily -> RE: in general? (1/26/2005 7:20:16 PM)
Well, it IS all relative. I'm sorry that you find that inacceptable, but there's no hard and fast criteria where the lifestyle is concerned. The key factor is the word "Consentual". BDSM activity, by definition, must be consentual in order to be considered safe and sane. Therefore, it all really depends on how things are negotiated between two consenting adults as to what is 'acceptable' to them. Sorry, but that's how it works around here. Lily

LdyAuburn -> RE: in general? (1/26/2005 7:25:15 PM)
quote: There is a specific defintion for slave and sub and Mistress and Master and switch and Pony play and good lord anything else No there isnt The way I am a Mistress I know would not suit quite a lot. This however is my right way. I know of submissives who still do all their own banking and bills and such like. That for me as the dominant would be the wrong way. Just one example Because it isnt my way. In world (admittedly there is only me and my consort and an occasionally few ring ins) my word is the right way. In MistressJoeBlogs world her word is the right way and she might just want things differently to me. We are all different, thenwe all have different styles and ways.

Suleiman -> RE: in general? (1/26/2005 8:01:13 PM)
The topics which get debated here are never the easy to answer questions that have a right and wrong way. The subjects of discussion ARE the grey areas. There is no need to discuss the other things. A wealth of information is already available. And you're right. There is a correct definition of a slave. It's a person who has been kidnapped from their home against their will, transported to some very far away place, and forced into various forms of service for which they are not payed, or if they are payed it is in a form that forces them into debt to their employer thereby keeping them at their workplace. Cross reference slavery and amnesty international. Oh, I'm sorry - you were talking about the whips and chains and romantic fantasy bull****. Sorry, honey, but none of that is real, no matter how hard you try to believe in your 24/7 lifestyle.

RiotGirl -> RE: in general? (1/26/2005 9:52:59 PM)
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domtimothy46176 -> RE: in general? (1/27/2005 4:33:41 AM)
As this is a lengthy post I'm going to interject my thoughts throughout the body rather than all in one place. quote: ORIGINAL: RiotGirl Hi i come here to learn, exchange ideas, throw my thoghts out and numerous other things. One of the things i noticed is that with most all questions that get posted... the most common answer is : Its all relative. (of course not in those precise words) Like Garylee's Question, What does a Domme take care of? There should be some general sense of what a Domme takes care of. Some basic things. It took ages for some one on these boards to get out an answer. What one mostly read was "Its all relative to the participants involved" Not different points of veiws, but "Its all relative" *I understand what you're saying but there's also the vagueness of the original question to consider. I enjoy reading his point of view but his original post was not worded in such a way as to elicit the personal perspectives of diverse individuals. It read as a general "What is proper" question. I've noticed that there are a lot of questions that are posed in ways that require the original poster to go back and clarify. This is, IMO, part of the problem.* Thats just one example, but i see it alot. How frustrating would it be to look up a definition of a word and in the dictionary it said "The meaning of this word is relative to the participants involved" Thankfully, the dictionary gives you the Main meaning, and a bunch of sub meanings to give you an idea of the definition. Hopefully i dont need to go through collarme and bring up every post i've read "its all relative" for others to understand. i do Know that it is all relative, but still i'd like a general sense of right and wrong. Of the way to go about something. Even if its 20 different ideas of the appropriate way.. atleast i'm not hearing "Its all relative to the participants involved" What truely is the point in asking a question if you arent really going to get an answer? Back to the dictionary, how often would you look up a defintion, if every time you did it said.. "Well, i cant really tell you what this word means, but i can tell you its allways relative to the situation and the participants involved. There is nothing specific to say" *Some of us do use our personal experiences as an illustration of how we've approached a situation. Others do seem to use a personal perspective of what they consider to be "right and proper" as a foundation from which they post. Sometimes neither seems a better answer than ponting out that the question is relative. Sometimes there is no good answer and other times a personal perspective doesn't appear to be asked for.* Is it maybe, everyone is afraid to step on some one else's toes? Afraid to offend by posting your "appropriate" definition? Afraid some one will stand up and say Hey, thats wrong its done this way? Because we shouldnt be, we should all know by now that we're adults and its all relative the the participants involved. Seriously though, is there truely, No right way and No wrong way? Really there has to be. There is always a right way and a wrong way and of course the grey area. We just tend to deviat from it because we want it our way. i would think. *LOL, you and I are not that far apart in our thinking. You will find, however, that the easiest way to start a flamewar is to suggest to a BDSM crowd that there are, in fact, absolutes of right and wrong. I have argued, at one point or another that adultery, theft, murder, non-consensual abuse, sexual use of children and deception are all inherently wrong. Of those topics, the only thing that was not answered with an opposing argument was sexual use of a child. Call me a cynic, but I'm willing to bet there was someone who disagreed with that one too but felt it safer to remain silent. There appears to be a strong tendency within the BDSM "community" to reject absolutes as a matter of policy. I, for one, simply keep my thoughts about the matter within my immediate sphere these days. I don't see the point in stirring up the hornet's nest with ideas I couldn't enforce even I was inclined to spend my time trying.* (EXAMPLE:: How do you treat a cat? - i mean like there is a right and wrong way to treat a cat, and there is the grey area. You feed them, you give them attention and most of us have a litter box (which can be put anywhere, but as it stinks you'd want to keep it as far away from the "living" enviroment" ECT You DONT kick them, throw them across the room, starve them for a few days... ECT Some keep their cats inside and some keep them outside, some declaw while others think its inhumane. - You get the general sense dont ya? How do you treat a Cat? - Its all relative to the participants involved. There is no right way or wrong way to go about treating your kitty. We all like to do it differently) ummmm.... hello? Does that mean i can leave my cat out in the garbage pail while i sleep? Can i stick a firecracker up its yahoo? *And you'll have to learn to accept that there are those who would argue that it's their choice if the want to stick that firecracker up kitty's yahoo. Others would raise the same old tired question: who gets to decide how kitties gets treated and what makes them qualified to decide for all kitties.* i dont mean everyone does it.. its really just relative and i do mean in a General Sense i see it happening alot. i do as well see alot of posters who actually post what they think, or what they do when a question arrives. Maybe it should be posted at the top of the forum "Everything herein is relative to the participants involved and there is no specific definition to any question asked" AND Just cos i dont think i stepped on enough toes already, i'm about to jump up and down on some toes. So for those who dont really want to think, can single out this last paragraph and flame me. THERE IS A RIGHT AND WRONG WAY. It isnt all relative. There is a WAY we should go about things. There is a specific defintion for slave and sub and Mistress and Master and switch and Pony play and good lord anything else. Things did start out ONE way, we as fellow believers of Burger King's motto, Want it our way and dont want to listen to anyone telling us its wrong. i'm going to get the toughest thing out of the way. Hi my name is kelly and i am generally wrong. i really havent a clue about the right way to go about things. i tend to just take a go at them and hope it turns out the way it should. Is the hate mail flowing yet? If so, take it in stride. You are entitled to your beliefs and opinions. Anyone who tells you otherwise needs to be reminded that personal beliefs are RELATIVE. ;) Timothy

domtimothy46176 -> RE: in general? (1/27/2005 4:43:38 AM)
Even consent is relative. My girl came to me as a submissive, wishing to serve yet retaining her independance. Over time she's discovered she now is owned, unable to exercise her "right" to assert that independance. It isn't a change she conciously agreed to. In fact it runs counter to her expressed wishes. It scares her a little bit that she could grow in a way that she hadn't intended to and hadn't consented to. One possible position is that relationships evolve and as long as the initial agreement hasn't been circumvented all is still within the auspices of that initial consent. Other's might view the current situation as abusive, although all I've done to foster the change is to be what I promised to be, honorable and honest in all things. There are nuances and shades and varying opinions even within the idea of consent. Timothy

MadameDahlia -> RE: in general? (1/27/2005 4:49:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RiotGirl (EXAMPLE:: How do you treat a cat? Some keep their cats inside and some keep them outside, some declaw while others think its inhumane. - You get the general sense dont ya? Does that mean i can leave my cat out in the garbage pail while i sleep? Can i stick a firecracker up its yahoo? Pardon the randomness of this post but I felt like posting... and since it's four fourty-seven in the AM I usually do what I feel like doing because that part of my mind that says I should be doing other things - like sleeping - has already shut off. Declawing a cat is inhumane. Feel free to argue anyone. But when you whack off the front of its toes it's like cutting off the first digit of a human finger. Any vet can confirm that. I asked mine about it. His practice doesn't offer declawing and he mentioned that a lot of vet offices follow the same protocol. Some still do it - for the right amount of green. Anyway, cats can have the ghost pain that human amputee victims suffer... and they don't bounce back from the surgery quickly as it is a very shocking ordeal to their system. And I don't think anyone's furniture is worth doing that to a living, breathing, feeling creature. I treat my cats better than I treat some people. And on an entirely different note... you said asked about sticking a firecracker up a yahoo. I'm not exactly sure what a yahoo is but the sentence had me falling out of my chair. Again, that could be the lack of balance this early in the morning. Please return now to your regularly scheduled programming.

domtimothy46176 -> RE: in general? (1/27/2005 4:57:36 AM)
Your definition of slave omits those who would sell themselves into slavery for one reason or another. wink All humor aside, there are, in fact, two commonly recognized and accepted meanings for slave in the English language which are germane to discussion here. 1) A person who is the property of and wholly subject to another; a bond servant. 2) A person entirely under the domination of some influence or person: a slave to a drug. (Source: Websters Unabridged Dictionary of the English Language) I think the gray area comes in how wholly or entirely are defined by the individuals involved. I do recognize, however, that some may dispute whether or not one can voluntarily place themselves in a state of slavery to another. Timothy quote: ORIGINAL: Suleiman The topics which get debated here are never the easy to answer questions that have a right and wrong way. The subjects of discussion ARE the grey areas. There is no need to discuss the other things. A wealth of information is already available. And you're right. There is a correct definition of a slave. It's a person who has been kidnapped from their home against their will, transported to some very far away place, and forced into various forms of service for which they are not payed, or if they are payed it is in a form that forces them into debt to their employer thereby keeping them at their workplace. Cross reference slavery and amnesty international. Oh, I'm sorry - you were talking about the whips and chains and romantic fantasy bull****. Sorry, honey, but none of that is real, no matter how hard you try to believe in your 24/7 lifestyle.

VyperX -> RE: in general? (1/27/2005 6:58:46 AM)
quote: i dont get it, how are we supposed to learn about anything or figure out the best way to go about something if its always relative to the participants involved? How are we supposed to gain any insight if no one can ever speak about the general sense of things? For better or worse, that's what life itself is about. In the workplace, for example, what relationship with superiors or subordinates is not defined by personalities. Oh, personality is a bigger idea than the word necessarily conveys, I think. And this may be a very Catholic notion, but sometimes what appears at first glance to feel worse is actually better once you know what the offending experience is telling you. Someone else brought up definitions. And yeah, I'd have to agree that there are definitions -- they're critical in fact. But your comment regarding the dictionary held a bit of wisdom that you perhaps didn't realize. Many, if not all, words are in fact defined by context. Choose any word. Chances are that depending on context it's even more than one part of speech, just for example. Definitions and context are both required components of understanding -- in words -- just as in relationships. This doesn't sound like friendly advice, perhaps. But it is intended that way. Life isn't neat. People don't conform to predefined, antiseptic molds, we're organic, mushy, -- relationships more so. So by extension a framework for relationship would end up rather muddled. So as a society, there are standards, and thank goodness for those that uphold them -- life becomes much more confusing when they lose their meaning or are abandoned. (Despite my urge to, I won't expound on this subject because it heads in too many prickly, politically incorrect, toe-stepping-on, sociological and even political points.) Which brings me full circle in my point, and while perhaps mine is perhaps not a linearly satisfying response, there's a lot of that in life. And sometimes that's just the way it is. A wonderful, provacative and refreshingly honest post!

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