RE: Death Penalty (Full Version)

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Sinergy -> RE: Death Penalty (10/19/2006 9:23:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Sinergy, I don't think anyone or anything can "discourage" serial killers, do you? Do you think Ted Bundy was thinking about his possable circumstances when he murdered all those women?
The death penalty is not about "prevention" it's about punishment.


Thank you for the clarification, popeye1250.

Your response to juliaoceania was not clear.  I believe I read somewhere that there was no organic difference in the brains of the serial killers you mentioned.  Psychologically, they tended to show signs of narcissistic personality disorders, as well as an eerie detachment from other human beings.  Ted Bundy, in particular, was extremely charming and cordial, but upon questioning it went deeper than showing no remorse, he had no emotional connection to other people.

So the death penalty is about punishment.  Have you ever wrongly punished another person?  How would you feel if you were the person in the hypothetical argument I presented and were party to the death of an innocent person?

If you support the death penalty, and an innocent person is killed, then you ARE party to the murder of an innocent person, no matter how diligently you attempt to argue to the contrary.

Sinergy



Marc2b -> RE: Death Penalty (10/19/2006 10:19:41 PM)

I am against the death penalty. Do not get me wrong, there are some evil bastards out there who deserve it. Every time I see on the news that some evil bastard has raped and murdered a seven year old girl my blood boils and my commitment to being against the death penalty wavers. Eventually my blood cools down and reason prevails. That is what the justice system is supposed to be about: reason over emotion. The simple fact is that Human Beings, and hence, Human institutions, are flawed. We succumb to emotions, we succumb to self interest (by which I mean, good old fashioned corruption), and sometimes we just plain make honest mistakes. Innocent people have been executed in the past and more will be in the future. I have actually heard some people say that you have to sacrifice a few for the greater good – easy to say if you’re not the one getting a needle stuck in your arm! Protecting these innocents is the number one reason for abolishing the death penalty. To execute an innocent is a perversion of the whole idea behind the justice system.

But it is not just those innocent lives that are at stake. Human beings are not all seeing and all knowing (although waaaaaaaaaaaay too many of them think they are). It is arrogant to think that we can arrive at the truth each and every single time. If we discover, twenty years after the fact, that someone in prison has been wrongly convicted of a crime, we can still set them free. True, a significant chunk of their life has been stolen from them and there is no way to give it back – but you can’t give anything back to the dead. Although people on death row have been freed I have never heard of a case (in modern times) in which it has been proven that an innocent has been executed (I presume such a case would be all over the news). It is only a matter of time before that day arrives. When that day arrives, will we not, as a society, feel a sense of collective guilt? That, in my opinion, is a second equally valid reason for abolishing the death penalty – to protect ourselves from the consequences of our own hubris.

I do not have a problem with trying to rehabilitate criminals who’s crimes did not result in physical harm to anyone (although I would only give one chance – fool me once shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me) but some people, in their horrendous acts, have simply torn up their membership card to the Human Race. Such people must be confined and kept separate from the rest of society. As for the victim’s family’s (perfectly understandable) desire for revenge, a life time of solitary confinement would be no picnic.



Estring -> RE: Death Penalty (10/19/2006 11:36:15 PM)

There is no stronger message to send about the value of life than if you murder someone, you forfeit your right to life.



NorthernGent -> RE: Death Penalty (10/20/2006 5:38:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I am against it, the biggest reason is that I do not believe that the criminal justice system will ever be perfect enough to stop the murder of innocent people. It is also racially biased.  


This is true but for my money the key factor is the responsibility of Government.

Government manage society through policies/laws etc. Thus, Goverment are managing the conditions that are creating violent crime. Thus, Government has a responsibility to resolve the conditions that are creating violent crime. It is the duty of Government.

The death penalty does not solve violent crime as per the mopping the floor example give above.

In fact, the death penalty effectively absolves the Government of all blame by fostering the notion that violent criminals are worthless. The truth is, they are from the same society as us. They are like us with the difference being their lives have simply taken a different path based on circumstance. As circumstance plays a major hand in all of our lives it is not inconceivable that a child of a poster on this board may be directed by circumstance to violent crime (hopefully it will not be the case). It would be interesting to hear posters' views on the death penalty if it was one of your children with his/her head on the block - would you believe his/her life is worthless or believe rehabilitation is justified?



LadyEllen -> RE: Death Penalty (10/20/2006 6:08:45 AM)

There was a show on BBC radio over here, where some guy suggested the following;

Murderers etc when convicted, should be put to referendum as to whether they are excecuted or kept in prison for life. Those opting for the death penalty would be noted down. The murderer would then receive the sentence for which the majority voted.

If the death penalty won out and it were later discovered that the murderer had been innocent, the names of those who had voted to execute would be put in a hat, and one name drawn out to pay the price of the murder of an innocent - ie to be executed forthwith. This would then satisfy the life for a life argument that supports the death penalty.

The only problem then comes, when the murderer who had been found innocent, resulting in the death of one who voted for the execution, is subsequently found to have been guilty all along by new evidence. Now who pays the price for the life of the voter drawn in lottery to pay the debt for the murderer's life in the first place?

The death sentence is not suitable as a punishment, as too many innocents are executed. There's a guy in Florida right now, a British Asian who's been on death row for ten or so years - every indication is that the trial was corrupted and every indication is that he is innocent. Punishment in any case, suggests to me a means of showing the guilty party the error of his/her ways - we all have to die, and to be honest the likes of a lethal injection is hardly anywhere near a punishment, compared to the agony in which most of us will linger out our last days on earth. Its a strange punishment which involves no pain and very little suffering relative to the crime.

Its not suitable as a deterrent, because people are still murdered when a death penalty is in place - it doesnt seem to make any difference whatsoever as far as I can see. It certainly does not rehabilitate, for obvious reasons. It doesnt compensate the family and friends who lost their loved one, unless its bloodlust rather than grief that they feel, and the extended periods for appeals etc does not help them with closure and the grieving process, because the whole thing is dragged out over years for them. Of course, they will never get over it - but surely this whole thing doesnt help them particularly?

E



missturbation -> RE: Death Penalty (10/20/2006 6:23:49 AM)

I've not read the whole thread (slaps wrists) so not sure if my opinion has already been stated but what the hell.
I don't agree with the death penalty because of as i know has been stated before what if they turn out to be innocent.
However i dont agree with the prison system as it is either. In my opinion when you are sent to prison you should have a cell and basic essentials. None of these pool tables, tvs, play stations, drugs, alcohol (ok sneaked in but still getting in) conjugal visits, decorating your cell etc that takes place.
 



ShreveportMaster -> RE: Death Penalty (10/20/2006 7:50:19 AM)

 I'm personally for it.
I think that it needs to be applied carefully, usually in situations where there can be no possibility of reasonable doubt as to the guilt of the dirtball in question. And I agree with Popeye, it needs to be done publicly. Bringing back public hangings is a splendid idea, not only will this serve as a vivid warning, but it's also ecologically responsible, One can re-use the rope. And as has been pointed out, Capital Punishment is about punishment, not deterrence, though it can serve that effect as well. And as to it not working, well, I'll agree if you can show Me evidence of even one executed murderer, rapist,etc who ever committed another crime of any type.... What? you can't? Well then, obviously it does in fact work perfectly. I think we'd have a lot fewer violent crimes if it was common knowledge that if you do X, and you get caught, even once, you're gonna dance on air on live TV. Guaranteed, no way out, do not pass go, do not collect 200 appeals.
Yes, I realize this is the Old West mentality, but they had proportionately a hell of a lot less crime than we do nowadays, thanks in part to folks like the Hon. Issac Parker (affactionately known as the Hanging judge) My philosophy is give'em a fair trial, then hang'em.

                                                        I wish you well,
                                                                                  Shreve



ToGiveDivine -> RE: Death Penalty (10/20/2006 8:12:29 AM)

Personally, I think cruel and unusual punishment should include anything up to and including what the guilty person did to the victim.

If they took a pick axe to their arms and legs then boiled the person alive - then the convicted felon should be eligible to be subjected to the same.

Yeah, it's that old eye for an eye thing.

I don't think too many would be rapists would be too eager to find victims if they knew there was a possibility in their future of a commando cock being shoved up their ass after a savage beating.



LadyEllen -> RE: Death Penalty (10/20/2006 8:37:25 AM)

Public hangings?

I take it you're thinking of some adult channel to screen these things - possibly pay per view, and definitely of appeal as entertainment on a Saturday night?

Do you know what happens to a guy who's hanged if his neck isnt broken? Do you really want to see him kicking around as his erection grows and he spurts like crazy?

It would sure help us with holding the high ground in relation to these awful Islamic countries that do these things, I'd say.

E



ShreveportMaster -> RE: Death Penalty (10/20/2006 8:47:35 AM)

No, I'm thinking more along the lines of the evening news.
And a decent hangman can make sure the neck always breaks.
I am not advocating torture, although for those whose crime involved children, hanging by inches might be an option.



Lashra -> RE: Death Penalty (10/20/2006 10:18:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: akisha

I'm for the death penalty in certain circumstances.

It's a heck of a lot cheaper then keeping some of the serial killers and repeat offender child molesters and the likes, alive in solitary confinement.

I'm for the death penatly and for these reasons. I dont want to pay my  hard earned tax dollars to keep some child molester, rapist or serial killer alive when the world would be a much better place without them. A good nylon rope and a tree is a heck of alot cheaper over the long haul.

~Lashra



NorthernGent -> RE: Death Penalty (10/20/2006 10:47:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lashra

quote:

ORIGINAL: akisha

I'm for the death penalty in certain circumstances.

It's a heck of a lot cheaper then keeping some of the serial killers and repeat offender child molesters and the likes, alive in solitary confinement.

I'm for the death penatly and for these reasons. I dont want to pay my  hard earned tax dollars to keep some child molester, rapist or serial killer alive when the world would be a much better place without them. A good nylon rope and a tree is a heck of alot cheaper over the long haul.

~Lashra



The problem is, for every violent criminal hanged another one pops off the production line and so on it goes with no resolution for wider society.



ShreveportMaster -> RE: Death Penalty (10/20/2006 10:49:18 AM)

That only says we aren't hanging them fast enough.



NorthernGent -> RE: Death Penalty (10/20/2006 12:07:42 PM)

The production line = another one born and distorted by a dysfunctional society. You can't hang what isn't born.

Like anything in life the key to resolving an issue is to get to the root cause of it and nip it in the bud otherwise, when it comes to violent crime, we're simply pissing in the wind.

It is not working in the US however you want to dress it up. Have a look at the book in the link below and it will tell you that America's jail population has increased 800 percent in the last 30 years. Something is going seriously wrong and the death penalty is operating within these seriously wrong boundaries. It is not working.

http://www.irr.org.uk/1998/october/ak000002.html



ShreveportMaster -> RE: Death Penalty (10/20/2006 12:49:57 PM)

right, because we are not using it enough.
When you have states with 400 people on death row, who wind up actually executing 4-5 per year, and many of the perps die of old age or other causes obviously something isn't right.
Bottm line, it's about punishment, if it also serves to deter, so much the better.
The old way worked, give 'em a fair trial, and then hang 'em. The only delay was the length of time it took to build a decent gallows.



Lordandmaster -> RE: Death Penalty (10/20/2006 1:01:58 PM)

And it's OK if we end up "punishing" a few innocent people too?



corsetgirl -> RE: Death Penalty (10/20/2006 2:12:17 PM)

This is a very difficult situation because I have a degree in criminal justice and have worked in the prison system.

Another interesting area is that during my college days, I went to China as part of my course studies and toured a university in Bejing, which is similar to Harvard here in the United States.  I observed a class of 18 students and a poll was taken as to who was for or against the death penalty.  I was surprised that 10 of these students were for the death penalty while 8 of them were against this punishment.  That really blew me away considering the justice system in China is very punitive. 
 
I also learned that the government will have what is known as the "Strike-Hard" campaign, in routing out officials who have been accused of corruption and embezzlement, which they will be sentenced to death and these individuals have no appeal because they committed crimes against the state.
 
I believe if a person has been sentenced to death, there should be DNA evidence used to determine whether that person innocent or guilty of the crime.



juliaoceania -> RE: Death Penalty (10/20/2006 2:25:50 PM)

quote:

I'm personally for it.
I think that it needs to be applied carefully, usually in situations where there can be no possibility of reasonable doubt as to the guilt of the dirtball in question. And I agree with Popeye, it needs to be done publicly.


I would be very interested in the people that wanted to witness this as a form of spectator sport so I can make sure I boycott where they work, the businesses they own, I would rather not socialize with such cretins either. Basically people that want to view this kinda thing should be treated like lepers in my opinion... no better than some blood thirsty Ted Bundy icky person... just YUCK.



ShreveportMaster -> RE: Death Penalty (10/20/2006 5:54:37 PM)

julia, you miss the point,
It's not done as a spectator sport, it's done and has been done in the old days as a very vivid warning, if you are found guilty of a crime so hideous that you forefit your right to live among civilized peoples, this is what will happen.  It's not supposed to be appealing, it's supposed to be horrifying, that's the entire reason for doing such publicly.

                                                                     I wish you well,
                                                                                             Shreve



juliaoceania -> RE: Death Penalty (10/20/2006 7:35:43 PM)

Not a warning, as a spectator sport... people took their kids to these things and had picnics... just eeeewwww,  that was in an era when there was slavery, lynchings, and the slaughtering of the Indians... oh yes lets move backward and become more barbaric...

People would not go to see an execution unless they got off on the snuffing of a human life.. how repugnant



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