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RE: Idiots, and the edge of freedom - 10/22/2006 10:48:14 PM   
Zensee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sissifytoserve

Its "american" to be WIRETAPPED, SPIED ON AND labeled a "suspectected Terrorists" in Bush's new "Homeland".


Homeland? Don't you mean der Fatherland?
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RE: Idiots, and the edge of freedom - 10/22/2006 11:30:45 PM   
Warpedsight


Posts: 9
Joined: 9/24/2005
Status: offline 		what gets me is the existance of "free speech zones"

something about that is completely wrong to me

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RE: Idiots, and the edge of freedom - 10/23/2006 6:37:12 AM   
CrappyDom


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quote:

A handy rule of thumb when dissenters meet to organize is to assume the most radical person in the room is some variety of cop.


There is more than a little evidence that the FBI was doing this with the group that did the first WTT bombing. 

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RE: Idiots, and the edge of freedom - 10/23/2006 9:11:28 AM   
Level


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Joined: 3/3/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger

quote:

If you google Joesph Lieberman, and Lynn Chenney... list of UnAmericans you will find that they have compiled a list of professors they want to ruin because they are not Red White and Blue enough. Some of my professors were in college during the Cold War, and remember the targetting of beloved professors because they wanted to teach Marxist theory....many people lost their jobs over that.


Don't forget to add Daniel Pipes and David Horowitz - They're almost as bad as Lynn Chenney.



- R


I see Horowitz's name, and I have to wonder... there certainly are plenty who try to shout him down at speeches and confrences, and he has fought against the hated speech codes at some universities. What has he done to muzzle speech?

< Message edited by Level -- 10/23/2006 9:13:09 AM >

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RE: Idiots, and the edge of freedom - 10/23/2006 10:55:25 AM   
philosophy


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Status: offline 		"But I am also aware that a chance meeting with a criminal that I do not know is a criminal, nothing more than a passing hello can easily be a justified reason for taking a look at me."

...it may be a reason......but justified? Surely not, unless living in a police state is not a problem.

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RE: Idiots, and the edge of freedom - 10/23/2006 11:06:19 AM   
Archer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

"But I am also aware that a chance meeting with a criminal that I do not know is a criminal, nothing more than a passing hello can easily be a justified reason for taking a look at me."

...it may be a reason......but justified? Surely not, unless living in a police state is not a problem.


Obviously we are defining "taking alook at me" differently.
Taking a look at someone in my book is a coursory examination, maybe follow for a day or so, check records see if there is anything to justify actually investigating.
I'm not saying as so many would like to think it goives them cart blance to tap my phones bug my house ask my boss about me, or anything of the sort.

But If I shake hands with a guy who's a known criminal and the police are investigating him already I would expect them to at least do a little check on me to see if I warranted closer attention.

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RE: Idiots, and the edge of freedom - 10/23/2006 11:12:30 AM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger

quote:


But the BORDER stays wide open.


I find it abominable that we have people here saying they are okay with wire taps and spying on activist groups, yet when the fact is brought up that this administration has done absolutely nothing to re-vamp / upgrade any kind of external security measures, they say NOTHING. It's clearly the difference between being told ''what to think'' vs. learning ''how to think''



- R



The more I read about the people in power, the more I think they go on the general idea that if they wanted people to think, they would have issued them a brain along with samples of Tide.

People who are afraid of the beast under the bed (aka Al Qaeda, etc) are much easier to control than people who are intelligent and educated.

Just me, could be wrong, but there you go.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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RE: Idiots, and the edge of freedom - 10/23/2006 11:46:05 AM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline 		"Obviously we are defining "taking alook at me" differently.
Taking a look at someone in my book is a coursory examination, maybe follow for a day or so, check records see if there is anything to justify actually investigating."

...ok, i do see your point here. However, some of the respondents here have spoken of things as overt as physically following someone along with hints of things like wire tapping. In these days of spyware and internet telephony, perhaps we need some rigid definitions of what constitutes a cursory examination. Otherwise we run the risk of the thin end of the wedge pushing doors further open than we'd all feel comfortable with.

If it turns out that i've met a terrorist (actually i have, but they were on cease fire at the time) then i don't mind if i'm quickly checked out to see if i'm running guns...but there'd better not be a file on me anywhere.....that constitutes an invasion of my privacy. It's a question of drawing lines and making damn sure the 'good' guys dont step over them. 

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RE: Idiots, and the edge of freedom - 10/23/2006 12:18:24 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		Thing is I can actually shut off some folk when they argue for heavier investigation with a simple answering of their favrite question.
"Would you rather we have more attacks?"
Actually yes I would rather have more attacks from outside sources than have the government invading citizen's privacy beyond that "Certain point".
I am willing to sacrifice some safety from terrorists for safety from my government.

But I don't believe the public will never reach that point. They want both and that's not something I see as realisticly possible.

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RE: Idiots, and the edge of freedom - 10/23/2006 6:13:15 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

I am willing to sacrifice some safety from terrorists for safety from my government.



This is why I would rather have Benjamin Franklin as one of the Framers of the Declaration of Independence and Bill of Rights and Constitution of the United States, a document written and ratified over 200 years ago to establish a union dedicated to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, rather than you.

The reason why people commit acts of terrorism is in order to shake up and perpetuate a state of fear in those who they commit their acts of terrorism against.  They do this so that people will willingly give up their freedoms and the sense of security and bar their doors and fear the boogie man at night.

I feel bad reading that the people who killed thousands of American citizens by flying planes into buildings in 2001 have succeeded (in their goal) in convincing you of the need to give up your constitutionally based freedoms, Archer, as they have with so many rabid supporters of the destruction of our civil liberties.

I refuse to let other people make me give up the valuable aspects of our system of government in this country has labored so long and so diligently to maintain.

But that is just me and I could be wrong.

Sinergy


_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Idiots, and the edge of freedom - 10/23/2006 6:29:05 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Thing is I can actually shut off some folk when they argue for heavier investigation with a simple answering of their favrite question.
"Would you rather we have more attacks?"
Actually yes I would rather have more attacks from outside sources than have the government invading citizen's privacy beyond that "Certain point".
I am willing to sacrifice some safety from terrorists for safety from my government.

But I don't believe the public will never reach that point. They want both and that's not something I see as realisticly possible.

 

Some people think we should change the Bill of Rights because a few people are terrified of something that is unlikely ever to happen to them, be killed by a terrorist. The terrorists won, we have less freedom, so they can all go home now.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Idiots, and the edge of freedom - 10/23/2006 6:52:27 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sissifytoserve

Oh come on now.

Its "american" to be WIRETAPPED, SPIED ON AND labeled a "suspectected Terrorists" in Bush's new "Homeland".

All part of the new freedom the terrorists hate so much.

But the BORDER stays wide open.




I was watching Lou Dobb's show on CNN last week and they said that Hamas operatives have *already* entered the U.S. through that Mexican border and that there is a congressional report on it yet, that Mexican border is wide open STILL!

And some colleges and universities have "speech codes" for their students and faculties! They can't use certain words and phrases!
"Political Correctness"?
Sinergy, there were plenty of "educated and intelligent people" in Germany in the 1930's as there are here in the U.S.
I think that everyone would agree that we need to have methods of spying on potential terrorists in this country and abroad.
Of course some misstakes will be made.
I haven't really made any changes in my life with the exception of maybe carrying an extra magazine of ammo when they raise the threat level.
I haven't noticed any of my rights infringed upon nor has anyone I know. And I'm a mouthy SOB when it comes to politics!
I think al qeada hurt muslims more that they hurt Americans.
Before 9/11 I never gave them much thought. Now, I won't rent to them, buy from them, do any business with them.

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RE: Idiots, and the edge of freedom - 10/23/2006 7:01:02 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: sissifytoserve

Oh come on now.

Its "american" to be WIRETAPPED, SPIED ON AND labeled a "suspectected Terrorists" in Bush's new "Homeland".

All part of the new freedom the terrorists hate so much.

But the BORDER stays wide open.




I was watching Lou Dobb's show on CNN last week and they said that Hamas operatives have *already* entered the U.S. through that Mexican border and that there is a congressional report on it yet, that Mexican border is wide open STILL!

And some colleges and universities have "speech codes" for their students and faculties! They can't use certain words and phrases!
"Political Correctness"?
Sinergy, there were plenty of "educated and intelligent people" in Germany in the 1930's as there are here in the U.S.
I think that everyone would agree that we need to have methods of spying on potential terrorists in this country and abroad.
Of course some misstakes will be made.
I haven't really made any changes in my life with the exception of maybe carrying an extra magazine of ammo when they raise the threat level.
I haven't noticed any of my rights infringed upon nor has anyone I know. And I'm a mouthy SOB when it comes to politics!
I think al qeada hurt muslims more that they hurt Americans.
Before 9/11 I never gave them much thought. Now, I won't rent to them, buy from them, do any business with them.


Hello popeye1250,

The more of your posts I read, the more I wonder if you simply write down talking points from shows like Lou Dobbs or Rush Limbaugh and compile them all into a post and hope it makes sense.

For example, you make a comment about intelligent and educated people in Germany in 1930.

Lets just say for the sake of argument that I agree with you that Germany had intelligent and educated people in 1930.  What exactly do you think that intelligent and educated people in Germany in 1930 means?  Would you mind putting some of these things into some sort of context?  Connecting it up to some extant reality currently being seen in modern times? 

I am sure the Roman Empire had intelligent and educated people in it when they nailed a guy to a tree for telling people to be nice to each other for a change.   So what?

What does it all mean to you?

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Idiots, and the edge of freedom - 10/23/2006 7:14:38 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Sinergy, that was in referance to your "beast under the bed" comment above.
You're assuming that educated and intelligent people are harder to control.
That's an assumption that wasn't at all true in 1930's Germany and certainly not in American politics.
I'd say that educated and intelligent people are easier to control and I'll bet Bill Clinton would agree with me! He was a master at it.

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 10/23/2006 7:16:47 PM >

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Idiots, and the edge of freedom - 10/23/2006 7:24:35 PM   
Sinergy


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Joined: 4/26/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Sinergy, that was in referance to your "beast under the bed" comment above.
You're assuming that educated and intelligent people are harder to control.



Hello popeye1250,

Thank you for taking the time to respond.

I am puzzled how you are privy to what I am "assuming," but I am disinclined to argue with your belief systems.

In regards the other comment...

Hitler sent out his Brown Shirts on Kristalnacht and had the intelligentsia rounded up for orderly disposal.  Is that what you mean by educated and intelligent people being easy to control?

I am curious why he would take the time to have them all killed if they are so amenable to being controlled.

Sinergy


_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Idiots, and the edge of freedom - 10/23/2006 7:31:08 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		Popeye,

The White Rose Society has a soft place is my heart. You comment about the intelligentsia in Germany brought them to mind, and I thought you might be interested in the work they did before Hitler's Brown Shirts silenced them. It might be illuminating to others about how far governments go to keep people in the dark.

http://www.spiritone.com/~gdy52150/wr.htm

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Idiots, and the edge of freedom - 10/23/2006 7:33:40 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Sinergy, that was in referance to your "beast under the bed" comment above.
You're assuming that educated and intelligent people are harder to control.
That's an assumption that wasn't at all true in 1930's Germany and certainly not in American politics.
*I'd say that educated and intelligent people are easier to control and I'll bet Bill Clinton would agree with me! He was a master at it.*


Sinergy, nice bob and weave!
Germany was at the time one of the most highly educated countries in Europe.
That went for the whole country not just the Jews.
Many of the Nazis had advanced degrees. Many "Drs" as I recall both M.D.s and Ph.D's
You forgot to quote the thing about Clinton too.

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Idiots, and the edge of freedom - 10/23/2006 7:52:45 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Sinergy, that was in referance to your "beast under the bed" comment above.
You're assuming that educated and intelligent people are harder to control.
That's an assumption that wasn't at all true in 1930's Germany and certainly not in American politics.
*I'd say that educated and intelligent people are easier to control and I'll bet Bill Clinton would agree with me! He was a master at it.*


Sinergy, nice bob and weave!
Germany was at the time one of the most highly educated countries in Europe.
That went for the whole country not just the Jews.
Many of the Nazis had advanced degrees. Many "Drs" as I recall both M.D.s and Ph.D's
You forgot to quote the thing about Clinton too.


Um, anyone within the intellentsia and the journalists in Germany that spoke out ended up at somewhere like Buchenwald...You take the dissenting educated out and the rest will shut up... so yes they are threatening for obvious reasons

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Idiots, and the edge of freedom - 10/23/2006 8:11:34 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Sinergy, that was in referance to your "beast under the bed" comment above.
You're assuming that educated and intelligent people are harder to control.
That's an assumption that wasn't at all true in 1930's Germany and certainly not in American politics.
*I'd say that educated and intelligent people are easier to control and I'll bet Bill Clinton would agree with me! He was a master at it.*


Sinergy, nice bob and weave!
Germany was at the time one of the most highly educated countries in Europe.
That went for the whole country not just the Jews.
Many of the Nazis had advanced degrees. Many "Drs" as I recall both M.D.s and Ph.D's
You forgot to quote the thing about Clinton too.


Thank you for the compliment about bobbing and weaving.

Not sure what that has to do with anything, but thank you regardless.

I am not sure what your comment about advanced degrees on both Jews and Non-Jews has to do with Kristalnacht or the ability to control the intelligentsia.

I also did not "forget the quote the thing about Clinton too."

I merely picked one talking point in your list and used it as an example of a statement made which has no context or relation to the rest of the talking points in the list.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Idiots, and the edge of freedom - 10/23/2006 8:14:10 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

I am willing to sacrifice some safety from terrorists for safety from my government.



This is why I would rather have Benjamin Franklin as one of the Framers of the Declaration of Independence and Bill of Rights and Constitution of the United States, a document written and ratified over 200 years ago to establish a union dedicated to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, rather than you.

The reason why people commit acts of terrorism is in order to shake up and perpetuate a state of fear in those who they commit their acts of terrorism against.  They do this so that people will willingly give up their freedoms and the sense of security and bar their doors and fear the boogie man at night.

I feel bad reading that the people who killed thousands of American citizens by flying planes into buildings in 2001 have succeeded (in their goal) in convincing you of the need to give up your constitutionally based freedoms, Archer, as they have with so many rabid supporters of the destruction of our civil liberties.

I refuse to let other people make me give up the valuable aspects of our system of government in this country has labored so long and so diligently to maintain.

But that is just me and I could be wrong.

Sinergy



Gee could you read it any more backwards??????
How about reading it with a basic english language translation

I would gladly give up some of my safety from terrorist (I would risk more terrorist acts on US soil)
for some safety from my government. (for safety from my government snooping around everybody so much).

I'm in agreement with your possition and you simply cannot phathom that.

Talk about preconcieved notions of what someone is saying rather than actually reading.






(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 40
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