RE: Why do we need definitions?

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raiken -> RE: Why do we need definitions? (10/24/2006 11:07:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DiurnalVampire I have a collection of things that define me, I am not simply one or another of them. I am ALL of them together. Take one or two out, and you potentialy have someone else. Hopefuly that makes some sense to someone else reading it. I am still waking up, so it might be a bit less than my normal coherent self. DV Makes perfect sense to me. To take one or two out would be to deny oneself. Living in denial caues one to become less than the original whole.

Daddysredhead -> RE: Why do we need definitions? (10/24/2006 11:10:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DiurnalVampire I have a collection of things that define me, I am not simply one or another of them. I am ALL of them together. Take one or two out, and you potentialy have someone else. Kind of like a recipe... the sum of one's many intricate parts. Makes sense to me.

Dnomyar -> RE: Why do we need definitions? (10/24/2006 11:11:13 AM)
My point is that you cant live life without giving something a label. It is human nature. You can't point and call everyting THING. Nothing went over my head here. I read and pay attention to what everyone says. Thats how I learn. I like to yank on chains once in a while. Helps burn off work frustrations. Seems some people in here don't take well to that. To each their own.

Lordandmaster -> RE: Why do we need definitions? (10/24/2006 12:26:45 PM)
Do you really think that's what I was asking, amayos? If you're just not going to be bothered to read what I wrote before you respond, you can't expect your response to be on target. For one thing, I don't know where your quote came from, but I never typed "Why do we need definitions?" That's the title of the thread, not a question that I asked anywhere in this thread. quote: ORIGINAL: amayos quote: ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster Why do we need definitions? We need definitions to reference an action, place or thing with accuracy. Words should mean things. If they do not, what you say or write has no meaning, and all you hope to do or convey might as well be written in water. If definitions did not matter, the volumes of reference we've deemed to sit upon our book shelves would distill ultimately to nothing more than babble. If but one of our numbers could equal any sum or equation, all math would be pointless. If definitions did not matter, you would not be able to read what I've written with any degree of understanding.

Iskander -> RE: Why do we need definitions? (10/24/2006 1:15:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: raiken quote: ORIGINAL: Dnomyar Labeled: 5 people. Master, Domme, Switch, submissive, slave. UnLabeled: 5 people Labels are necessary. i believe that you believe, that for you, labels are necessary. For me, people are just people, behind the words, beneath the veil, beneath the mental attire, and the physical adorments. One may label themselves a dominant, but when with me, feel drawn to another part of themselves that when combined with my energy comes alive. For that person to deny what they feel because they are trying to contain themselves in a label is confining and restricting to their growth and experience. i don't want a person who denies a part of who they are because of a mere word and its conotations. i will label myself for general clarity sake, but if i find that another person ignites something else in me that may have been there but dormant until that person, i throw labels to the wind and go with the flow. It is the experience that matters most to me. Whether it is online messaging and good conversation, or a nice dinner, date, or play time session, whatever it is, that is what life is for me, good memories and experiences along the way. Sometimes i don't know what i am looking for until i actually find it. Just me. Edited because i still have trouble stringing words together in this language. *grin Can we define what a label is? [8\|] I sometimes think people confuse the 2... For instance, Well all pretty much know what a submissive is, we have a pretty clear definition on that, the problem lies when people try to limit the definition of submissive down to a label.. 'painslut', fucktoy', 'domestic wench', all pretty valid categories of submissive, and none more or less valid than the next... We can give a pretty acurate definition of a human, but try defining a 'bob' or an 'alice', is a 'bob' more human than an 'alice'?! The problem arises when someone says "I am a true submissive because I am a painslut" and others immediately assume the 'true' word is a exclusion, this is as moronic as thinking '2 is a true number' means there are no other true numbers... It's not (always) the 'author' of those statements that is wrong, sometimes it's the readers own narrow perceptions... Iskander...

BlkTallFullfig -> RE: Why do we need definitions? (10/24/2006 1:39:01 PM)
We need words, labels (probably the same reason we have names) and definitions to facilitate communication, and often use them as starting points in a conversation which should involve a lot more clarification. As to whether it is a security issue, I would say, hardly. I don't believe wanting clear communication is indicative either way. Demanding that everyone submit to one as the final authority, that might become problematic for the one; other than that, it is just communication to the best of our human ability. M

raiken -> RE: Why do we need definitions? (10/24/2006 1:40:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Dnomyar How can you get clarity with out a difinition? How can you define something that, perhaps you may not be so clear about? grin Such as the human mind, spirit, heart and soul of a person? That is partly the basis for this thread as i see it. It is not whether we need Websters or not, leave the dictionary and hard factual defining out of this and realize we are speaking of fluid beings with fluid changes, even though some of those changes may or may not affect the general label for some. For others, they have changed many labels many times. Labels and definitions of human characteristics and traits and attributes are begining points to aid in understanding, communication and clarity. i am not saying that we don't benefit from this type of usage for a label or a definition in this area. i am saying, that to attempt to stringently define the nature of human characteristics with regard to individual passion, desire and even lust in some cases, and hold folks to those hard and fast definitions, AND the limitations such definitions contain or imply or impose, is unhealthy and unrealistic in approach. As we are always changing and growing. Define away, but don't nail it down so tight and narrow, that if a change comes, you will deny it and thus deny yourself. Especially because you may have allowed yourself even inadvertantly, to be blinded by your own narrow minded definition in the first place. grin *Edited to add that the use of "you" is in general, and not personally directed toward anyone in particular.

CreativeDominant -> RE: Why do we need definitions? (10/24/2006 2:42:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: raiken quote: ORIGINAL: Dnomyar How can you get clarity with out a difinition? How can you define something that, perhaps you may not be so clear about? grin Such as the human mind, spirit, heart and soul of a person? That is partly the basis for this thread as i see it. It is not whether we need Websters or not, leave the dictionary and hard factual defining out of this and realize we are speaking of fluid beings with fluid changes, even though some of those changes may or may not affect the general label for some. For others, they have changed many labels many times. Labels and definitions of human characteristics and traits and attributes are begining points to aid in understanding, communication and clarity. i am not saying that we don't benefit from this type of usage for a label or a definition in this area. i am saying, that to attempt to stringently define the nature of human characteristics with regard to individual passion, desire and even lust in some cases, and hold folks to those hard and fast definitions, AND the limitations such definitions contain or imply or impose, is unhealthy and unrealistic in approach. As we are always changing and growing. Define away, but don't nail it down so tight and narrow, that if a change comes, you will deny it and thus deny yourself. Especially because you may have allowed yourself even inadvertantly, to be blinded by your own narrow minded definition in the first place. grin *Edited to add that the use of "you" is in general, and not personally directed toward anyone in particular. ~smiles~...and I have to disagree...at least somewhat. I like definitions. I concede that definitions are modified to fit certain circumstances. If there was only one definition for everything, the dictionary itself would be a lot thinner. I am not as fond of labels but one of the reasons I am not is that too many people use a label to put someone into a box and that box is in many cases, their own narrow pre-conceived one-definition-only of what the label means. If that box is broad and contains all the many variations of the label, then there is somewhere to go in discussion. If that box is narrow, with room for one straight-line meaning with no room for any variation, then the label becomes a confinement rather than a starting point. People think that you cannot apply labels and definitions and be open-minded or have a broad vision or consider things from more than one angle. I disagree...just as I disagree with the concept that all those who are open to new experiences and will not be boxed into any label because they've been boxed before into "one label-one definition" are all flakes. However...no matter how fluid or flexible or open-minded to new experiences we are, we are not defined by one experience but rather by a sum collection of experiences, with the "defining label" being the one that we most identify with in the particular context of our life situation. I am a dominant. That is the label I apply to myself and I am perfectly willing to tell someone what that means to me, if they ask. There was a woman that I submitted to for a defined, short period of time. It was a hell of an experience...a one-time experience. It taught me something and I would not trade it or go back and undo it. That one experience does not define me though. It makes for an interesting detour from my journey of domination.

jamesthehumanrug -> RE: Why do we need definitions? (10/24/2006 2:42:30 PM)
a little mental masturbation/ OK i hope things i collect and keep around me do not define me;altho i loose part of the memory associated with that THING,if i should loose it; all things around me collected ,or not ;make up my environment which is 80 percent of the influence on me(us) ; and, who ever is ,around me(us); ultimately defines my(our) self- opinion ,by their opinions ;so i hope i (we) ,always have a good audience, or stay away ,from the loons who can destroy us; but, if we can manage to loose our egos ,of 'who we are'; then ;and ,only then; can we be EVERYTHING; AS EVERY GOOD 'ACTOR' KNOWS: ,TO BE, NOTHING; IS THE ,ONLY WAY, TO BE EVERYTHING!; "definitions" make everything easier; even so ,if one, becomes, so easily defined ,that we are ,so easily labeled, then those 'labels' can be used to opress ,and, or kill us,so: i hope i am ,not,so easily defined.[sm=book.gif] quote: ORIGINAL: raiken quote: ORIGINAL: DiurnalVampire I have a collection of things that define me, I am not simply one or another of them. I am ALL of them together. Take one or two out, and you potentialy have someone else. Hopefuly that makes some sense to someone else reading it. I am still waking up, so it might be a bit less than my normal coherent self. DV Makes perfect sense to me. To take one or two out would be to deny oneself. Living in denial caues one to become less than the original whole.

amayos -> RE: Why do we need definitions? Take 2 (10/24/2006 3:30:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster Do you really think that's what I was asking, amayos? [...]For one thing, I don't know where your quote came from, but I never typed "Why do we need definitions?" That's the title of the thread, not a question that I asked anywhere in this thread. On the contrary; I believe you encapsulated the thrust of your post well in the title. Unless the subject line named itself, I'm assuming you typed it. I chose to answer your thread title as it seemed, from having read the breadth of your post, that simple line does get at the crux of your rather long-winded rant. But to answer another short quip in the post itself which equally reflects your subject line and the final, inevitable destination of what you are saying in so many words: quote: ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster Who the fuck cares? I do. For the explanation, see my first response.

raiken -> RE: Why do we need definitions? (10/24/2006 3:32:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant quote: ORIGINAL: raiken quote: ORIGINAL: Dnomyar How can you get clarity with out a difinition? How can you define something that, perhaps you may not be so clear about? grin Such as the human mind, spirit, heart and soul of a person? That is partly the basis for this thread as i see it. It is not whether we need Websters or not, leave the dictionary and hard factual defining out of this and realize we are speaking of fluid beings with fluid changes, even though some of those changes may or may not affect the general label for some. For others, they have changed many labels many times. Labels and definitions of human characteristics and traits and attributes are begining points to aid in understanding, communication and clarity. i am not saying that we don't benefit from this type of usage for a label or a definition in this area. i am saying, that to attempt to stringently define the nature of human characteristics with regard to individual passion, desire and even lust in some cases, and hold folks to those hard and fast definitions, AND the limitations such definitions contain or imply or impose, is unhealthy and unrealistic in approach. As we are always changing and growing. Define away, but don't nail it down so tight and narrow, that if a change comes, you will deny it and thus deny yourself. Especially because you may have allowed yourself even inadvertantly, to be blinded by your own narrow minded definition in the first place. grin Edited to add that the use of "you" is in general, and not personally directed toward anyone in particular. ~smiles~...and I have to disagree...at least somewhat. I like definitions. I concede that definitions are modified to fit certain circumstances. If there was only one definition for everything, the dictionary itself would be a lot thinner. i disagree with definitions when they are used to judge and confine a person and limit their experience. I am not as fond of labels but one of the reasons I am not is that too many people use a label to put someone into a box and that box is in many cases, their own narrow pre-conceived one-definition-only of what the label means. If that box is broad and contains all the many variations of the label, then there is somewhere to go in discussion. i agree. If that box is narrow, with room for one straight-line meaning with no room for any variation, then the label becomes a confinement rather than a starting point. CD, this is what i was trying to say...to not be so narrow in the defintion of the label, or box. People think that you cannot apply labels and definitions and be open-minded or have a broad vision or consider things from more than one angle. That i believe, is because there are those, and in my experience MANY who believe that one label is only for one outlook or perspective and this doesn't take into consideration all the many variations that can be found in the whole of the label. I disagree...just as I disagree with the concept that all those who are open to new experiences and will not be boxed into any label because they've been boxed before into "one label-one definition" are all flakes. My thought is that unless i am sure of myself after having experiences, i won't apply a label for i don't wish to be judged just by that label. i have many other areas that do not fit neatly into one label. Something happens though when i use a label. It is as if folks can't view me by any other thought outside of that label. However...no matter how fluid or flexible or open-minded to new experiences we are, we are not defined by one experience but rather by a sum collection of experiences, with the "defining label" being the one that we most identify with in the particular context of our life situation. Exactly...You have a much better way of explaining this thought that i struggled with. grin I am a dominant. That is the label I apply to myself and I am perfectly willing to tell someone what that means to me, if they ask. There was a woman that I submitted to for a defined, short period of time. Yes, and if You were narrow in Your definition and stuck in your small label or box, You may have denied yourself of that opportunity. i know many who have and then later had regrets. It was a hell of an experience...a one-time experience. It taught me something and I would not trade it or go back and undo it. That one experience does not define me though. It makes for an interesting detour from my journey of domination. Exactly what i was trying say, to not deny oneself of experiences just because it may appear to be outside of the more (dominant) label. Thanks CD! *grin

LaTigresse -> RE: Why do we need definitions? (10/24/2006 3:39:36 PM)
Just a quick question...........how many pages do you suppose it will take before we start arguing the definition of the word...definition?? Just waiting for that cut and paste of the dictionary to pop up.

BitaTruble -> RE: Why do we need definitions? (10/24/2006 3:51:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse Just a quick question...........how many pages do you suppose it will take before we start arguing the definition of the word...definition?? 69? ::take that response however ya wanna. [:D] :: quote: Just waiting for that cut and paste of the dictionary to pop up. ::exhibits almost inhuman self-control by NOT going there:: [8D] Celeste

Lordandmaster -> RE: Why do we need definitions? Take 2 (10/24/2006 3:54:55 PM)
So you care what two married people call each other when they're members of the same sex? That's where "Who the fuck cares?" comes from. There are two conflicting needs in this case: the need of two gay lovers to call each other whatever they'd like, and Amayos's need to make sure that world communication doesn't fail because such people use non-standard definitions. I think you can figure out which need I consider more important. quote: ORIGINAL: amayos quote: ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster Who the fuck cares? I do. For the explanation, see my first response.

LaTigresse -> RE: Why do we need definitions? (10/24/2006 3:58:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BitaTruble quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse Just a quick question...........how many pages do you suppose it will take before we start arguing the definition of the word...definition?? 69? ::take that response however ya wanna. [:D] :: quote: Just waiting for that cut and paste of the dictionary to pop up. ::exhibits almost inhuman self-control by NOT going there:: [8D] Celeste I think that is a lovely number however I was not thinking of pages. And the dictionary thing, I have been damned close myself a few times.[:D] Just for the fun of it ya know.

LotusSong -> RE: Why do we need definitions? (10/24/2006 4:07:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Noah The Greeks had a lovely story which had everything to do with making things fit into boxes. http://www.mythweb.com/teachers/why/basics/procrustes.html What if something by its nature just won't fit into a box? Do you cut it up into box-sized bits, or just deny its existence? I just toss it in a pile until it figures out what it is :)

LotusSong -> RE: Why do we need definitions? (10/24/2006 4:12:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jamesthehumanrug AS EVERY GOOD 'ACTOR' KNOWS: ,TO BE, NOTHING; IS THE ,ONLY WAY, TO BE EVERYTHING!; The most sucessful of Actors choose their parts.

kyraofMists -> RE: Why do we need definitions? (10/24/2006 4:40:22 PM)
I agree with Noah that for the most part this has been a very good thread; I have enjoyed many of the posts written, especially the ones by Noah and Padriag. What do I get out of reading those threads? Seeing the words someone chooses to define themselves or their relationship gives me a little information about the person. Sometimes the impression I form is positive and sometimes it is not. Then there are the rare moments when someone will say something that will strike a chord with me and it will enhance my own understanding of myself and my relationship. Then there are times that someone will put a concept into words that I was struggling to describe to my own satisfaction. Then there is the fact that those threads can be just plain entertaining! There is that sadistic streak in me that likes to watch people who allow themselves to get so twisted up over differences of opinions. Knight's kyra

Fawne -> RE: Why do we need definitions? (10/24/2006 5:44:29 PM)
Labeling is an extreme form of all-or-nothing thinking. Instead of saying 'I made a mistake.' you attach a negative label to yourself: 'I'm a loser.' You might also label yourself 'a foal' or 'a failure' or 'a jerk.' Labeling is quite irrational because you are not the same as what you do. Human beings exist. but 'fools,' 'losers,' and 'jerks' do not. These labels are useless abstractions that lead to anger, anxiety, frustration, and low self- esteem. You may also label others. When someone does something that rubs you the wrong way, you may tell yourself: 'He's an S.O.B Then you feel that the problem is with that person's 'character' or 'essence' instead of with their thinking or behavior. You see them as totally bad. This makes you feel hostile and hopeless about improving things and leaves little room for constructive communication.

raiken -> RE: Why do we need definitions? (10/24/2006 5:51:45 PM)
Ah for the most part, i just enjoy reading and posting, it helps me to learn about how others believe, and also about myself. i am still trying to get better at using english, so when i try to express my thoughts, posting here gives me a safe place to practice. grin i don't believe that many folks actually walk away feelin all twisted about a thread though...really? Ya think so? Not to mention that i have met some nice folks here just by being around on the boards. i enjoyed this thread. smile

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