Risk: Benefits VS Consequences & Fear (Full Version)

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BitaTruble -> Risk: Benefits VS Consequences & Fear (10/24/2006 9:46:10 PM)

I've been thinking about risk assessment and how I get to a point where doing something has an acceptable risk factor for me - meaning that the potential benefits of a given activity (or attitude) outweigh potentially negative consequences and it dawned on me that in writing a journal entry about risk, I failed to consider the 'fear factor'.

Fear, I believe, does play an important part in risk assessment because fear can leave you, literally paralyzed and effect your pyche to your own detriment.

As I've trudged on through life, I have found that fear plays less and less of a role in my assessment of risk. Everytime I gain a small step and lose an inhibition, or let go of an attitude I've held on to for whatever reason, it seems that 'fear' is getting further and further away as a determining factor in weighing benefits VS consequences.

Most recently, I let go of a particular attitude because in so doing, I gained something as a slave which has been beneficial to the relationship which I share with Himself. I did not see any risk in letting go of this particular attitude, so for me it was zero risk for a gain that had the potential to have a profound impact on my service.

Himself termed this 'enlightenment' and I know it was the proper course and he is pleased, as am I, because it has enabled me to serve him better. In letting go of things in the past, I think part of that was due to the 'fear' I had in letting them go.

Questions would pass through my head ..

"How is this going to change 'me'?"

"What if I let go and find it's a mistake?"

Those questions didn't enter into my mind this time. It's as if they have become unimportant in the existance of the relationship we share. At least for this particular growth spurt.

This could be due to the time involvement we have together, or it could be that I've grown beyond the idea of being afraid in terms of our relationship dynamic and how we live it, but to be sure, it is something which, until I actually sat down and thought about, had not presented itself in quite some time.

OK, on to the actual question: Does 'fear' come in to play when you are deciding whether or not to take a risk? If so, does it ever have enough weight to tip the scale in either direction - as in "all things being equal" you will or will not decide to take a risk based simply on your fear factor?

Celeste






CrappyDom -> RE: Risk: Benefits VS Consequences & Fear (10/24/2006 10:03:02 PM)

Fear isn't a thing and I do my best to set it aside.  If it is strong then I tend to look for deeper causes of why I have that fear.  Fear isn't good or bad, it simply is. 

Years ago when I was in a VERY rocky relationship  with a woman I loved (and in some ways had feelings for that have never been equaled although drama tends to do that) we were in a rocky patch and she wanted to see some others for a variety of reasons.  She was hot (size 16 for those who worry about such things) and short but she just had this way of standing out and getting attention.  So of course people who were considered S&M bigshots wanted to play with her.  Here is little ole me from a hick town, they live in the same town (I live about 80 miles from SF which in CA terms isnt' far but it isn't next door either) and I have all of a few years under my belt and they have 20 etc, you get the point.

I feared I would lose her, REALLY feared.

But I realized that if I lost her I never had her AND I trusted both in myself and our bond and a bit in her.

That fear was palpable, there was reality behind it but also if it came to pass that way then it was bound to come to pass another and so I let go.




mistoferin -> RE: Risk: Benefits VS Consequences & Fear (10/24/2006 10:07:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble
OK, on to the actual question: Does 'fear' come in to play when you are deciding whether or not to take a risk? If so, does it ever have enough weight to tip the scale in either direction - as in "all things being equal" you will or will not decide to take a risk based simply on your fear factor?


Yes, fear does come into play and yes there are times when it is the deciding factor. I, like you, find that as I go through life my fears seem to be falling by the wayside and have become less of a component in my decision making process. But there are still times that the fear is the stopper.

There has been a thread running on here about insect play...that serves as a perfect example. I am extremely bug phobic. If I was asked if I would consider this type of play...it would be my fear, no matter how unrealistic it is....that would stop me from uttering "yes".



ownedgirlie -> RE: Risk: Benefits VS Consequences & Fear (10/24/2006 10:09:33 PM)

Well gee.

quote:


"How is this going to change 'me'?"

"What if I let go and find it's a mistake?"

Have you been peeking into my head again?

Actually, those are questions I used to ask myself before ever growing into a new level of submisison with him.  I have outwardly asked him those questions before.  Of course he never answered them directly, but guided me to find my own answers.

There have been times when I was indeed very fearful of "the next step" or of changing an attitude.  In fact the latest change of tude I underwent was the most fearful.  But ultimately I process the fear and continue forward.  Fear has not prevented me from taking a risk with him.  And so far anyway, the risk has always been all in my head.



juliaoceania -> RE: Risk: Benefits VS Consequences & Fear (10/24/2006 10:32:08 PM)

quote:

Does 'fear' come in to play when you are deciding whether or not to take a risk?

Always

quote:

If so, does it ever have enough weight to tip the scale in either direction - as in "all things being equal" you will or will not decide to take a risk based simply on your fear factor?


A definite yes, and I find myself contemplating the same risk questions.

I have a phobia that has impacted my life quite severly. Shedding this phobia would improve the quality of my life immensely. It is not a completely unreasonable fear, but millions of people do this this thing I am afraid of every day. It is my next life's goal to shed it. I am working on this goal presently.

The thing is, the root of almost every negative emotion is fear. Jealousy is the fear of losing someone you love, envy is the fear you will not measure up to something. Anger is usually fear based.  Anger turned in on oneself is depression, since anger is fear, depression is fear often. It can literally change our brain chemistry

As someone who has battled to overcome PTSD the fears that you speak of are nothing new to me. Life without fear is a big goal for me, because it is freedom in my mind. It is one thing to be cautious, it is something else to live in a fear-based way. Life is not without risk, and if you aren't taking risks you are dying. That does not mean being foolhardy, but to me it means embracing that almost everything in my life worth having involved risk taking..

Thanks for this thread Celeste... it is a good one.



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Risk: Benefits VS Consequences & Fear (10/24/2006 11:05:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble
OK, on to the actual question: Does 'fear' come in to play when you are deciding whether or not to take a risk?

It depends on what the risk is about.  I've got my hot buttons of insecurity and irrationality, fear can easily creep into those areas.

Such as driving to a new place- I hate driving and I suck at geography.  My fears of getting lost and getting into car trouble DO come into play when making plans somewhere.

quote:

 If so, does it ever have enough weight to tip the scale in either direction - as in "all things being equal" you will or will not decide to take a risk based simply on your fear factor?

Sometimes, but never when it really mattered.  When I had to drive my two partners into downtown Austin at night for the first time on my own during ACL Fest because my other partner was attending the festival, yeah I was pretty tense and scared.  But I had to drive and we had to get there and it got done.

Fear is a very bad thing when it comes to making good choices- because it's not rational and it's not going to teach you how to make good choices, just how to avoid them.  While people should listen to their intuitions and not IGNORE fear when they feel it, they should make choices based on what's necessary, not because of their fear.

On the other hand, I've often been accused of being too practical for my own good, so maybe I'm just too good at being able to shove emotions aside to get the job done and miss out on something that others don't.



SlaveAkasha -> RE: Risk: Benefits VS Consequences & Fear (10/25/2006 12:34:06 AM)

I try my best to look at my fear, and see if it's holding me back in any way.  I have a fear of trust, I have a fear of letting go and giving over to someone totally.  This is a fear I am trying very hard to rid myself of.  It's a process, but one I know I will accomplish with help from Master.  He is very patient with me, and knows how many times this part of me has been mistreated. 
 
I know that my heart cries out to give up control, that my mind knows it's whats best for me.. it's just convincing my fear to step aside and allow the "real" me to enjoy herself again.
 
Akasha



Dnomyar -> RE: Risk: Benefits VS Consequences & Fear (10/25/2006 4:34:48 AM)

Most fears are a sign of insecurity or lack of attitude. Look at it with a more aggressive attitude and it will dissapate. Don't go off the deep in about it. Just think Im not going to take this anymore. 



ExtremeOwnerIL -> RE: Risk: Benefits VS Consequences & Fear (10/25/2006 6:21:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble
OK, on to the actual question: Does 'fear' come in to play when you are deciding whether or not to take a risk? If so, does it ever have enough weight to tip the scale in either direction - as in "all things being equal" you will or will not decide to take a risk based simply on your fear factor?


To me, fear represents one of two things: an ignorance of the thing that I feel "fear" towards, or something that is so overwhelming that the instinctual "fight or flight" kicks in.

Fear of the unknown is easy to understand. Once I've started to understand that thing, fear becomes an awareness of what I do know vs. what I don't know - I can understand that, I can learn, I can adapt. Fear becomes perhaps an anticipatory feeling (the knot in the stomach I feel when I'm sitting on pit lane about to roll onto the track before the 25 lap feature race) or a cautionary feeling (I need to be careful with this welding equipment so I don't hurt myself.)

The instinctual "fight or flight" is probably something that will not happen to me within the context of wiitid.

So to answer your question, within my concept of fear, yes, the first does apply on in that if I "fear" something, I feel that I don't understand the risks enough. Once I understand the risks, then my "fear" goes away. I have noticed a similar trend, as I grow more experienced (another euphemism for saying I'm getting old *g*) that I fear new things less and less. It is probably because I understand more and more and I can draw on my experience and understanding.

Regards,
EO



MasterFireMaam -> RE: Risk: Benefits VS Consequences & Fear (10/25/2006 7:51:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

OK, on to the actual question: Does 'fear' come in to play when you are deciding whether or not to take a risk? If so, does it ever have enough weight to tip the scale in either direction - as in "all things being equal" you will or will not decide to take a risk based simply on your fear factor?

Celeste


Yes, it does. When I feel fear about something, sometimes deep down panic, it's a signal to me that there is more to the situation that I need to look at and examine closely. WHY am I afraid? Sometimes, I work through the fear and it's gone forever. Sometimes, I work through the fear and it's gone for only that encounter/situation. Sometimes, I recognize that I can work through the fear, but that it will be a slow process. And, sometimes I can't and I have to set it aside. It's ok to be afraid...and it's ok to realize the fear is more than you can handle. Bravery isn't the absence of fear, bravery is action in the face of fear, even if that action is to wait.

Master Fire



charismagirrl -> RE: Risk: Benefits VS Consequences & Fear (10/25/2006 9:41:11 AM)

Bita what a great topic for a thread.

i am one of those fearful ppl. Afraid of so much it's almost stupid (i can atleast admit that)... my fears stemmed from alot of childhood stuff and then were compounded when i became a mother... Some make total sense and others are true phobias (unrealistic/unfounded fears)

i'm working soooo hard to overcome these things because they do interfere a great deal. julia really hit alot of points that i can relate to as well, having gone through the PTSD stuff and how all the negative emotions stem back to fear. This rings soo true to my experience.

One thing i realized, with the help of my Master/Daddy recently, is that my fears are also ways for me to control things, in a really BIG way. If i can recognize that then hopefully it'll help me to let go of those controls.

Two of my biggest fears are crowd phobia and an off shoot from that, going to work out in a gym with other ppl. These are also two of the things that i've recently begun to overcome.

At one point in my life (most of my adult life) if i came to a store check out and there were alot of ppl there i would put my stuff down and walk out. i would have the "flight" response but also, to a degree the "fight" response because i would tend to become angry and nasty (if even only inside of myself). Lately, i've been able to go do that type of thing with alot less anxiety and more success.

i've also been able to go to the gym. my Daddy got us a family membership at a gym near my full- time residence, his part- time residence (until 3 wks from now when it'll be his full- time plc). Initially when we went to the gym we didn't work out together, although he was there at the same time he didn't "hold my hand" but was close enough if i had a problem. This has really helped me face this major looming fear of going to the gym alone. i find myself thinking, "my Daddy loves me and i'm good enough for him, so none of you other ppl matter."

It'll be a long road for me to overcome all of my fears but, i'm trying to surrender them.






gypsygrl -> RE: Risk: Benefits VS Consequences & Fear (10/25/2006 9:50:04 AM)

Its only been recently that I've been able to acknowledge the reality of  my own fear and vulnerability.  Instead of acknowledging fear, I would either dissociate or get angry, something I learned as a child.  In many ways, I was like a guy (at least a stereotypical one. I don't want to generalize.) and simply refused to let fear get in my way or consciously let it impact my decisions and behavior.  As a consequence, I would do things out of fear while being unable to recognize this or I would ignore obvious red flags and warning signs.  The upshot was that I've done a lot of things I probably shouldn't have done.   I've never done anything seriously self destructive, but I've played with that edge enough.  My first, and thus far only, D/s ltr was driven largely by fear and it took me way too long to recognize this and simply run away.

Events in my life over the last 3 years or so has forced me to re-evaluate how I process fear and its only been in the last six months that I've been able to admit to myself feelings of fear, to hold onto them and simply feel afraid, scared, vulnerable.  To me, I equate being afraid with feelings of powerlessness.  The threat of being powerless has always terrified me, so much so that I would act unwisely out of an exaggerated need to assure self-preservation. 

I'm convinced that my attraction to D/s, and specifically, power exchange, is at some level rooted in how  I experience and process fear and vulnerability, both of which I connect with feelings of powerlessness, as they're feelings I've never permitted myself to freely explore or even allowed myself to feel.

Risk assessment is a slightly different, though, related topic.  I do pay a lot of attention to potential risks in deciding to do anything.  For me, there's two aspects of this assessment: the objective and the subjective.  Some things are just plain riskier than others, no matter who's doing them and these risks are generally recognized by most people.  Breath play,  gun and knife play, blood play, unprotected sex, and things like that.  I take more risks than the general population, but am pretty low key relative to the population of folks engaging in bd/sm and related activities.  I  don't mind traveling a long distance to meet a stranger I met over the internet, I've played with guns and knives, probably wouldnt mind cutting, but have never considered suspension, am hesitant to do bondage though I've done some and even get a little panicky at the thought of being restrained in such a way that I can't easily get free.  Subjectively, the thought of being restrained is scarier, and hence seems more risky, even though objectively its probably no more dangerous than knife or gun play.  To me it boils down to feelings of powerlessness.

Another thing I factor into my assessment is how I'm feeling at the moment I'm making the decision.  If I'm a bit off emotionally and psychologically, I'm much more cautious because I don't want to risk driving myself into a more troubled psychological state by adding on unnessarily.  If there's too many crises happening in my day to day life, I'm not going to run out and get myself a good hard flogging even though I consider flogging to be physically pretty safe because of the potential for sub-drop.

Another thing I factor in is how my decisions impact other people in my life.  As a single mom they depend on me as the only constant adult influence in their day to day lives.  So, I have to look at their safety as well as my own, and whether I'm placing them in jepordy by either risking my own safety or allowing people into our lives who might have a negative influence or emotionally stressing myself out so much that it interferes with my ability to care for them.

What role does fear play in this risk assessment?  I know from experience, that feeling fear alerts me to potential risks, risks which may be unique to me and not easily perceived but no less real.  Its not something I ever want to push out of the way and simply overcome or ignore.  When it comes to fear,
I pay attention to it, listen to it and try to hear what its trying to tell me. 

Thank you so much for posting this question. :)



RiotGirl -> RE: Risk: Benefits VS Consequences & Fear (10/25/2006 10:36:25 AM)

i try and calculate things out as best to my ability

Whether fear comes into my calculations i do not know.  Say turning my relationship into a poly group - i calculate that it would be a bad thing, not beneficial either.  Whether my calculations have an underlying fear in them, i do not know. (have i deduced it is a bad idea from fear or from logic?) 

If i can calculate something out to be "ok" i generally try and confront a fear.  For example i am afraid of heights, yet you will see me randomly stuck in 2 or 3 story tree clinging on for dear life.  Convincing myself to climb back down and not just start bawling for help. 



BitaTruble -> RE: Risk: Benefits VS Consequences & Fear (10/25/2006 1:59:31 PM)

What wonderful responses! Thank you all for contributing.

I don't want to highjack my own thread, but some of you got me to thinking about over coming fear (as it relates to BDSM) and how it may affect your D/s relationship if you can't over come it.

From a dominant perspective, do you feel you can help your submissive/slave over come fears, whether they be a fear of letting go of a preconceived idea or the fear of a particular activity (or some other sort of fear)? How far will you allow yourself to push your partner .. and how do you know when to back off pushing them? Is it OK for a fear (especially an irrational fear) to dictate an action or activity (or lack of engaging in same) which is of particular interest to you? How do you tackle a fear held by your submissive/slave when you view it as irrational and it effects something which may be of particular interest to you? Is it a process of baby steps? Communication? Pushing? Ignoring and just plunging head with what you desire because their fear is irrational?

From a submissive/slave perspective - (and Akasha, your post prompted this part for me) - does time in a relationship effect your ability to trust your partner enough to help you work through fears, or do you feel this is something you must conquer for yourself without regard to any relationship you may enjoy? How do you view fears which may be held by your Master/partners? Do you feel, as their submissive/slave, that you should (could, would) help them get over their own fears? How would you set about helping your partner get over their fear when they hold your power/authority and are the dominant in the relationship? Is it even OK for a dominant to fear?

Celeste



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Risk: Benefits VS Consequences & Fear (10/25/2006 2:29:06 PM)

I'd hope that we'd all help eachother to deal with and overcome whatever fears and insecurities we have together.  It's not a master thing or a slave thing- it's just an "us making our lives better together" thing. 



MasterFireMaam -> RE: Risk: Benefits VS Consequences & Fear (10/25/2006 8:40:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

I'd hope that we'd all help eachother to deal with and overcome whatever fears and insecurities we have together.  It's not a master thing or a slave thing- it's just an "us making our lives better together" thing. 


Yep, given that one both wants help and wants to work through the fear. The latter I can handle much easier than the former, so whatever reasons. I understand that a catapillar must struggle out of it's own shell, but allowing a person to struggle when I clearly see how I could help them is hard as hell for me. Still, I'm managing to do it.

Master Fire



ExtremeOwnerIL -> RE: Risk: Benefits VS Consequences & Fear (10/26/2006 6:02:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble
From a dominant perspective, do you feel you can help your submissive/slave over come fears, whether they be a fear of letting go of a preconceived idea or the fear of a particular activity (or some other sort of fear)? How far will you allow yourself to push your partner .. and how do you know when to back off pushing them? Is it OK for a fear (especially an irrational fear) to dictate an action or activity (or lack of engaging in same) which is of particular interest to you? How do you tackle a fear held by your submissive/slave when you view it as irrational and it effects something which may be of particular interest to you? Is it a process of baby steps? Communication? Pushing? Ignoring and just plunging head with what you desire because their fear is irrational?


Yes, to answer your first question, I feel that I can help *IF* it is a fear that is not the result of psychological issues or mental illness. I'm not a licensed therapist and mucking about in someone's head is for the wary. If it's a fear of say a singletail, then I can help a slave overcome that fear. If it's a fear of small rooms because she was abused in a small room and locked in it, then there are issues there better dealt with by a therapist - I will support her in overcoming those fears by supporting her through therapy.

To answer your question about pushing - I push as the flow tells me how far to push. That empathy/feeling comes from the level of pushing, what you're pushing on and how well you know/trust the slave (and vice versa.) Again, to use my previous example, if I'm doing an intro singletail scene with a bottom, and she is responding to the light caresses of the whip, I might increase the intensity and "read" her responses. If, in the case of my slave that I have now, she has a fear of suspension and bondage due to a very abusive former Master, I only venture into extreme bondage when we have gone through intense "foreplay" and I know her energy is good and she is fully into a good mindset.

In terms of tackling a fear that I may deem irrational - it would depend. If the fear is due to ignorance, I would take the time to talk and educate myself and my property on what it is that the fear is about. Again, it's a "read" of the situation to know where her (and my) mind is at.

If it's a fear of "Oh My Gods, this is going to hurt...." -- well -- that's a momentary fear and again, her knowing I'm a Sadist, that fear may play into my enjoyment, and knowing my slave as I do, I'll gladly tromp on that fear - which time and again she has enjoyed. We tend to play very rough and hard in those spaces.

Patience is really the key to all this -- patience on BOTH parts. She is going to have to be patient in that I may apply the brakes more than she feels she wants - or she has to be patient in that in time, for fears that I can help her with, things will come together and she will be able to move beyond her fear.

Lovely followup.
Regards,
EO




agirl -> RE: Risk: Benefits VS Consequences & Fear (10/26/2006 10:42:39 AM)

From the perspective of a slave, ok, as ME as a slave.......time in the relationship builds trust, most assuredly......brick upon brick of confidence.........nothing rushed about it.

Some of the fears I have, were born out of circumstances and have performed a jolly good role in protecting delicate and vulnerable parts of me. They aren't required these days but the length of time it took to create them, may well be the length of time it takes to help them crumble.

My experience is of being pushed enough to look at the fear and see it from a place of safety....without being expected to *overcome* it. When I have overcome fears it's because I approached it with a place of *safety* supporting me. He's never pushed me with a view to his own desires, always with my benefit at the forefront.

As for my Master.........I am not aware of any fears he may have. They would be his and his alone. That may seem horribly selfish but that IS the way it is.

I simply do not have an equal relationship of support and growth. The cost of leading and owning has it's own path as does the path of being owned and following. In my mind, both paths have their obstacles and troubles but, they are different. I cannot DO what he does and he has never expected me to.

agirl






MasterWilliam55 -> RE: Risk: Benefits VS Consequences & Fear (10/26/2006 3:13:38 PM)

I practise what is called RACK (Risk Aware Consentual Kink).  SSC (Safe Sane Consentual) is almost vanilla for me, although I do admit that at least 75% of my play is SSC. It's a Dom's responsibility to help a submissive get over her fear (apprehension might be a better word) for a given activitiy or situation. It's our job to help them grow. It requires patience, communications, awareness and trust. It  also requires knowledge of what that fear is based on. A sub should feel apprehension going into a new activity but never raw fear. Fear of that sort is usually based on a sub's not being sure if the Dom is as experienced as he should be.

A Master here earlier mentioned fear of loosing his sub to another Master by allowing her to play with him. I actually encourage it.  If a sub that belongs to me wishes to try something I have no interest in or no real skill in, I will search out an Appropriate Dom to give her that experience. I play once every two months with a sub who's Master lives far from her and only see her once a month. He is far more skilled than I am, but she needs more attention then he can give her. They are in love and I am simply his surragate. Non of this is about sex....simply BDSM extreem play.  I've never lost a sub due to this approach, nor have I taken one from anyone else.

My philosophy is simple. If you want to experience all that this lifestyle has to offer, you have to let go of your fear.



Noah -> RE: Risk: Benefits VS Consequences & Fear (10/26/2006 3:41:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble
OK, on to the actual question: Does 'fear' come in to play when you are deciding whether or not to take a risk? If so, does it ever have enough weight to tip the scale in either direction - as in "all things being equal" you will or will not decide to take a risk based simply on your fear factor?

Celeste


I sometimes decide against things which scare he crap out of me. It is easy to think that if something is that scary then there are some other-than-emotional reasons why one might avoid it, on average. Did I "actually" avoid it because it was scary or because the things which made it scary were good reasons to avoid it in the first place, regardless of my emotional response? Probably varies from case to case. I don't claim to be able to sort it out.

I sometimes decide in favor of things because the scare me. I decide I might enjoy the rush. Other times I might deem that the action or attempt has enough value to overwhelm the kind of "advisry" influence of the fear.

I think we kid ourselves, though, when we say "I did (or didn't do) this because ... " that is if we invest more than a little in the claim. Most events seem to me to be overdetermined in the first place, and human decisions and actions even moreso than other things.

We do what we do. Later we offer some sort of narration. In some cases we even offer the narration first.

That we say--or even that we think--that X is the reason for our decision doesn't strike me as a very powerful reason firmly conclude that X would be seen to be the "real" reason from some objective, omniscient point of view. In the previous sentence we see that just trying to flesh out what one might mean by "real reason" invokes all sorts of silly metaphysical talk. That is warning enough to me to be suspicious of the whole enterprise of leaning very hard on any interpretations of "why we do (or avoid) things."

Handled in a gingerly way that kind of talk can be one moment in a worthwhile conversation which moves well beyond it. Which, by the way, is just teh sort of thing Celeste was up to in starting this discussion--but I'm afraid I can't be sure.




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