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Withdrawal as correction? - 10/28/2006 6:16:42 PM

MissUnleaded

Posts: 60
Joined: 8/26/2006
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In the 'Ever been too honest?' thread the topic of cutting off communication was raised, as a tool for controlling a submissive or slave.

Mavis wrote, in a rather interesting post, that she thought there were two ways to view a Dominant's withdrawal:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mavis
There are two ways to see it, both valid at different times:

Stop. I am sick of what you're doing to inconvenience Me.

Stop. I am sick of watching you feed on unhealthy attitudes or emotions.

I didn't want to hijack that thread so I decided to start a new topic. I hope that's appropriate; I haven't been on the boards very long.

I question whether cutting off communication ever IS an effective method for teaching a sub or slave a lesson. It's passive. It seems 'undomly' to me. As I said, it would erode my trust and confidence in his ability to control me. He can't control me if he's not there. There are plenty of effective ways to correct a sub/slave and prevent her self destruction that don't involve withdrawal.

So, the question is, have you been in situations where this has worked for you and your Dominant? If so, can you explain the circumstances and why it turned out to be effective? Did your Master/Mistress explain why they were cutting off communication first, or did s/he simply say 'don't contact me for a few days'?

If it was not effective, why not? What was the outcome? Would there have been a better way to handle the situation?

As I mentioned in the other thread, it has thankfully not happened to me, so I am honestly curious about how it has worked (or not) for other people.

Post #: 1

RE: Withdrawal as correction? - 10/28/2006 6:24:58 PM

Kalira

Posts: 954
Joined: 10/9/2006
From: Fort Wayne Indiana
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Hmm, the actual cutting off of communication would NEVER work for me. Now granted, there are times, there have been times, and there will be times where this is unavoidable; but never as a punishment. The one I am currently with, when we were still in very early talks with each other, he stopped calling me on the phone simply because he wanted me to think about where the realationship was going without hearing his voice. It just about killed me, I had already gotten to a point where his voice was a very powerful thing for me; but I understood his reasons for doing this.

but to completly cut off all communication as a punishment? No.
as a means of changing certain behaviors? yes

_____________________________

Facilius Per Partes In Cognitionem Totius Adducimur
We are more easily led part by part to an understanding of the whole.
Seneca

Damnant Quod Non Intellegunt

(in reply to MissUnleaded)

Post #: 2

RE: Withdrawal as correction? - 10/28/2006 6:32:34 PM

ownedgirlie

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Joined: 2/5/2006
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Once when I had screwed up, Master asked me what I think he ought to do about it. I suggested he should cut me off from him for a few days, to remind me how much I appreciate him. His response was something to the effect of, "Not allowing you to communicate with me does nothing to bring you closer to me and strengthen the bond. We are both happiest when that bond is solid. Why would I want to push you away when it serves us both better to have you near me?"

I loved his answer and appreciated that even though some disciplinary action was in order, he would not send me off to retreat from him, as it would only hurt the relationship overall. He does want me near him. He loves that I am so attached and connected to him. I am grateful that he wouldn't harm that bond and as a result I always cringe when I see other submissives and slaves speak of being banned from their Masters. I just don't see anything productive in it.

(in reply to MissUnleaded)

Post #: 3

RE: Withdrawal as correction? - 10/28/2006 6:39:21 PM

Celeste43

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From: NYS
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About the only way I could hear that he was cutting off communication would be if he was clear that it was because he was too angry or upset to think about the situation clearly and would talk to me later when he was back in control. Anything else makes me withdraw from him. So if his response to a difficult situation was to abandon me, while mine is to crawl back into my hole, then it would be a vicious cycle and within days there would be no trust, no communication nor any relationship left to deal with.

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 4

RE: Withdrawal as correction? - 10/28/2006 6:41:34 PM

TemptingNviceSub

Posts: 3054
Joined: 10/1/2005
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I too believe that withdrawal as a punishment tool is wrong.However as I stated in previous thread a couple of days for thinking and reflection could certainly not come amiss on either part of the D/s dynamic...Tempting

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 5

RE: Withdrawal as correction? - 10/28/2006 7:03:30 PM

MyMasterStephen

Posts: 219
Joined: 8/16/2005
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I think rejection in any form - even something as simple as corner time - needs to be used with EXTREME caution. Rejection can cause huge damage unless the relationship is absolutely secure and there is understanding and acceptance on the part of the submissive that this is a legitimate teaching tool.

(in reply to MissUnleaded)

Post #: 6

RE: Withdrawal as correction? - 10/28/2006 7:08:19 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

I question whether cutting off communication ever IS an effective method for teaching a sub or slave a lesson. It's passive. It seems 'undomly' to me. As I said, it would erode my trust and confidence in his ability to control me. He can't control me if he's not there. There are plenty of effective ways to correct a sub/slave and prevent her self destruction that don't involve withdrawal.

My former dominant used my abandonment issues to control me. He would punish me by cutting off contact until I capitulated to him with things I had not negotiated away. He was not an evil person, but he and I played out this psychodrama of a rollercoaster ride from hell. He would get angry with me, refuse to talk to me, make me wonder whether or not he would "forgive me". It turned out to be a somewhat abusive situation. I was going through acknowledging I had an anxiety disorder, which I believe this relationship triggered my PTSD. I addressed these issues and I got better, and we split completely.

I told myself I would never live through someone using my abandonment issues as a control device ever again. I told myself I would not be with someone who withdrew for any reason, but I have to say time has tempered these thoughts for me. It is one thing to leave someone hanging with no end in sight wondering whether or not they will be "forgiven" or left forever. It is another thing to tell someone that you are not going to talk to them for a couple of hours or a couple of days so they can think about the relationship and what they want from it.

One of these scenarios is abusive because it leaves the person off kilter without knowing where they stand, the other scenario is giving them a chance at introspection and self improvement leading to less problems in the future. It is asking someone to take stock in themselves and think about why they act the way they do. It is not punitive, it is corrective.

My Daddy has told me to think on something until he talked to me again, and he was not happy with me when he said it. I did not take this as abandonment by him because of the spirit with which he did it. He wanted me to think about it, and he talked to me a couple of hours later about the issue and was very pleased I thought deeply about it. It was not a punitive thing, it was a corrective thing, and I took it as such.

So, yes, withdrawl of affection and attention and holding these things for randsom for compliance is one thing, but giving someone the opportunity to think in isolation is ok in my book.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to MissUnleaded)

Post #: 7

RE: Withdrawal as correction? - 10/28/2006 7:08:33 PM

adaddysgirl

Posts: 1093
Joined: 3/2/2004
From: Syracuse, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Celeste43

About the only way I could hear that he was cutting off communication would be if he was clear that it was because he was too angry or upset to think about the situation clearly and would talk to me later when he was back in control. Anything else makes me withdraw from him. So if his response to a difficult situation was to abandon me, while mine is to crawl back into my hole, then it would be a vicious cycle and within days there would be no trust, no communication nor any relationship left to deal with.

This is me too Celeste. i can see taking a 'cool off' time when upset....but not days. i would withdraw too and that would not be a good thing for the relationship.

i truly hate spankings so a good spanking works as discipline for me. But to feel abandoned like that? As you said, there would be no relationship left to deal with

DG

(in reply to Celeste43)

Post #: 8

RE: Withdrawal as correction? - 10/28/2006 7:14:18 PM

CrappyDom

Posts: 1883
Joined: 4/11/2006
From: Sacramento
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Just like a hammer can be an effective tool in one role and destructive in another, cutting off communication is very powerful, done well it can be effective, done poorly it can be quite destructive.

First off, you have to know and understand how your actions as a dominant affect the person you are dealing with as that will be an important variable. Another is HOW and WHEN you cut off communication. Done in the midst of fighting, it is seldom anything but destructive. Done with a clear time limit and with structure, in essence an adult time out, it can be effective.

Since the issues that withdrawal trigger are often ones that drive a submissives behaviors like abandonment, emotional withdrawal, love, attention, ect. are deeply intertwined, playing with this requires skill gained after screwing it up many times. It isn't something I can teach someone and it is going to be different for each couple depending on there dynamic.

I wouldn't recommend it easily but I wouldn't rule it out either.

(in reply to MyMasterStephen)

Post #: 9

RE: Withdrawal as correction? - 10/28/2006 7:19:32 PM

LAMPedge

Posts: 24
Joined: 10/3/2006
Status: offline

juliaoceania, your former dominant was no dom.

He was domineering, and manipulative, but noone like that deserves the title of Dominant.

If it were ever to be used, not speaking as a punishment would have to be extremely rare, and for a short period of time, or it would as mentioned before by others serve only to harm the relationship, not improve it.

(in reply to adaddysgirl)

Post #: 10

RE: Withdrawal as correction? - 10/28/2006 7:22:11 PM

adaddysgirl

Posts: 1093
Joined: 3/2/2004
From: Syracuse, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

Once when I had screwed up, Master asked me what I think he ought to do about it. I suggested he should cut me off from him for a few days, to remind me how much I appreciate him. His response was something to the effect of, "Not allowing you to communicate with me does nothing to bring you closer to me and strengthen the bond. We are both happiest when that bond is solid. Why would I want to push you away when it serves us both better to have you near me?"

I loved his answer and appreciated that even though some disciplinary action was in order, he would not send me off to retreat from him, as it would only hurt the relationship overall. He does want me near him. He loves that I am so attached and connected to him. I am grateful that he wouldn't harm that bond and as a result I always cringe when I see other submissives and slaves speak of being banned from their Masters. I just don't see anything productive in it.

Sounds like quite a thoughtful guy. You are soooo lucky

DG

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 11

RE: Withdrawal as correction? - 10/28/2006 7:24:27 PM

adaddysgirl

Posts: 1093
Joined: 3/2/2004
From: Syracuse, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MyMasterStephen

I think rejection in any form - even something as simple as corner time - needs to be used with EXTREME caution. Rejection can cause huge damage unless the relationship is absolutely secure and there is understanding and acceptance on the part of the submissive that this is a legitimate teaching tool.

Great points for such a short reply!

DG

(in reply to MyMasterStephen)

Post #: 12

RE: Withdrawal as correction? - 10/28/2006 7:29:19 PM

adaddysgirl

Posts: 1093
Joined: 3/2/2004
From: Syracuse, NY
Status: offline

MissUnleaded,

Not to get off topic but just a quick question. What is that Taken in Hand you refer to in your profile? Is there a site for that?

DG

(in reply to MissUnleaded)

Post #: 13

RE: Withdrawal as correction? - 10/28/2006 7:31:13 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LAMPedge

juliaoceania, your former dominant was no dom.

He was domineering, and manipulative, but noone like that deserves the title of Dominant.

If it were ever to be used, not speaking as a punishment would have to be extremely rare, and for a short period of time, or it would as mentioned before by others serve only to harm the relationship, not improve it.

Not all dominants are good dominants, he was a dominant, just not a very good one for me....smiles....

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to LAMPedge)

Post #: 14

RE: Withdrawal as correction? - 10/28/2006 7:36:05 PM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: adaddysgirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

Once when I had screwed up, Master asked me what I think he ought to do about it. I suggested he should cut me off from him for a few days, to remind me how much I appreciate him. His response was something to the effect of, "Not allowing you to communicate with me does nothing to bring you closer to me and strengthen the bond. We are both happiest when that bond is solid. Why would I want to push you away when it serves us both better to have you near me?"

I loved his answer and appreciated that even though some disciplinary action was in order, he would not send me off to retreat from him, as it would only hurt the relationship overall. He does want me near him. He loves that I am so attached and connected to him. I am grateful that he wouldn't harm that bond and as a result I always cringe when I see other submissives and slaves speak of being banned from their Masters. I just don't see anything productive in it.

Sounds like quite a thoughtful guy. You are soooo lucky

DG

Thank you DG, I consider myself extremely fortunate. He knows what buttons to push and when...and which are destructive and should be avoided. This is not to say he won't end a conversation that is going nowhere, but he will never make me go days without hearing from him just to teach me a lesson.

Julia, like you, my former Dom would make me go days at a time, sometimes a week, without being allowed to contact him in anyway, while he considered whether or not to keep me. It was extremely destructive and painful.

(in reply to adaddysgirl)

Post #: 15

RE: Withdrawal as correction? - 10/28/2006 7:36:48 PM

SlaveAkasha

Posts: 726
Joined: 9/30/2006
From: Indiana
Status: offline

For me, this is the worst thing that Master could ever do. I guess because for me, my father has cut off from me any communication. It really hurts me and I still have moments where I just sit and cry from it. If Master were to do this, I don't think I could take it.

It would be even too cruel to use as a punishment, and would mess something up between us that could never be gotten back. I know some Doms use it, and ignore their subs as a form of punishment though, and it works for them. To cut me off emotionally and ignore me, is not punishment, it would be mental abuse in my opinion, because of the baggage from the father/daughter relationship, or lack thereof.

Kasha

_____________________________

Look, if you want to torture me, spank me, lick me, do it. But if this poetry shit continues just shoot me now please.
~ Tank Girl

www.peta.org
www.goveg.com

(in reply to MissUnleaded)

Post #: 16

RE: Withdrawal as correction? - 10/28/2006 7:40:47 PM

DiurnalVampire

Posts: 8125
Joined: 1/19/2006
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissUnleaded

So, the question is, have you been in situations where this has worked for you and your Dominant? If so, can you explain the circumstances and why it turned out to be effective? Did your Master/Mistress explain why they were cutting off communication first, or did s/he simply say 'don't contact me for a few days'?

I have used this on only one occasion. Angel was in a mood, I was getting smartass responses that were fueled by his stress rather than his usual personality. While I understood where it was coming from, I decided that ratehr than punishing him for his behavior, cutting off contact would be more effective. That way, he had a chance to work things out of his system before he got me good and angry at something he said, and I could explain to him why it was inapropriate when he would not be getting defenseive about it.
I deal with an extreme fear of abandonment. I have to be very careful with withdrawal of communication, even for short periods of time. It can easily be misunderstood as your not wanting to deal wth them, or their problems, ratehr than giving someone the time needed to make sure things are right in their head. While communication after the fact can help, if they are in too bad a state beforehand it might not be able to undo damage. Withdrawal, like everything else, is a very effective tool if it can be handled properly. It makes a better threat than it does an action, I find, especially if it has been properly used once and they know you arent kidding.

My 2 cents
DV

_____________________________

I will be your Dominate if you will be my submit - Fox

Snarko Ergo Sum
If you cannot change your mind, how are you so sure you still have one? -proverb

*Owner of Fox - collared 10/13/07*
VampiresLair

(in reply to MissUnleaded)

Post #: 17

RE: Withdrawal as correction? - 10/28/2006 7:46:57 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

Julia, like you, my former Dom would make me go days at a time, sometimes a week, without being allowed to contact him in anyway, while he considered whether or not to keep me. It was extremely destructive and painful.

Yes it is extremely destructive in ways I do not think they even estimate when they do it (or at least I would like to think they do not understand what it is that they do and how cruel it can be)

quote:

It would be even too cruel to use as a punishment, and would mess something up between us that could never be gotten back.

If relationships are all built on trust, then how does a submissive trust someone that does this to her? I found myself very distrustful of him on a deeper level than I ever even suspected because of this. My Daddy and I had to deal with this monster that he planted in my head. I would cry about it when we first started talking, it was something he had to promise me he would not do to me over and over again... it wounded me very deeply. I do not think I am scarred from it thankfully, or the openness of my relationship now has just mended that brokenness that this serial abandonment left me with, but if there are doms reading this post that use this to exercise control over their submissives, they will end up spent emotionally with nothing left to give, possibly not caring if you ever come back if you "leave" them once too often... just a warning.

Edited to add, your new pic is very nice

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 10/28/2006 7:47:19 PM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 18

RE: Withdrawal as correction? - 10/28/2006 8:07:32 PM

SlaveAkasha

Posts: 726
Joined: 9/30/2006
From: Indiana
Status: offline

quote:

If relationships are all built on trust, then how does a submissive trust someone that does this to her? I found myself very distrustful of him on a deeper level than I ever even suspected because of this. My Daddy and I had to deal with this monster that he planted in my head. I would cry about it when we first started talking, it was something he had to promise me he would not do to me over and over again... it wounded me very deeply. I do not think I am scarred from it thankfully, or the openness of my relationship now has just mended that brokenness that this serial abandonment left me with, but if there are doms reading this post that use this to exercise control over their submissives, they will end up spent emotionally with nothing left to give, possibly not caring if you ever come back if you "leave" them once too often... just a warning.

I agree, I think if it was done to me, I would cut myelf off also and not care if they came back or not. I know that some say punishment shouldn't be pleasant, and I agree. To cut someone off in this way, can be too hard emotionally on someone. I know that the issues from my past would make it much too cruel, and would do damage that couldn't be repaired in myself, and to the relationship. I would always live in fear that they would do it again, and some trust would be lost.

That is why I say that to me, this is mental and emotional abuse, and not discipline, there are many better ways in this world to get that across to me than this. It is one of those things though, that is between the two parties and if someone knows that going in, and to them it's not got the same cause, it could in an effective way.

quote:

Edited to add, your new pic is very nice

Thank you, appreciate it.

Kasha

_____________________________

Look, if you want to torture me, spank me, lick me, do it. But if this poetry shit continues just shoot me now please.
~ Tank Girl

www.peta.org
www.goveg.com

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 19

RE: Withdrawal as correction? - 10/28/2006 8:11:36 PM

CrappyDom

Posts: 1883
Joined: 4/11/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline

Many here are confusing what works for THEM and what MIGHT work for another, submissives are most certainly not all wired alike.

In addition, NOTHING works if done poorly and many very complex things work if done well.

(in reply to SlaveAkasha)

Post #: 20

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