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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I think that bacteria have the spark of life ownedgirlie. I think every living thing has a soul. I eat meat, I eat plants, and I sleep really well at night.

On a spiritual plane I do not put a higher value on human life than any other life. I see this planet as a big connected organism. In practice I am a human being so I put higher value on human life in my defense of my species in the struggle for survival. I would save a human before an animal be. But that does not mean I believe that the human has more value than an animal on a spiritual level, or to God the way I understand God to be.

Like i said, I respect your belief, but I do not share it. I do not believe an embryo is a self aware sentient being... You believe differentlly than me, from some of what you posted I would assume you are judeo-christian (Icould be wrong)... Im not a judeo-christian or a protestant. I do not share your beliefs. I do not think that women should be forced to carry a pregnancy that cannot sustain itself without her body. It gets murkier when brain development is further along, but I also believe that late term abortion is acceptable when the mother's life is at risk....

My beliefs are different from yours, that's all.  If I had a daughter and she wanted an abortion I would drive her there myself after I asked her if she considered other options.


Edited for clarity about my spiritual beliefs

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It's also the body of the child inside... you know, the one being eliminated.

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This argument is a red herring, there are many areas where the individual doesn't have right of self-determination in our society and civil liberties are arbitarily defined by interest groups and have no foundation in an intellectual argument (if discussing abortion can ever get as far as an intellectual argument.)

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ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

I think the percentages speak for themselves. It's the women themselves that give the reasons for their wanting an abortion, they don't have a category imposed on them.

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ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

I only wanted to bring the option up for discussion.  I do not have a means to answer your question of proving it is better.

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Check my post - #46.  The article you later referred to - from 1997 is not in it.  So no, it was not something I linked for you. You provided a 9 year old study which you found on I site I shared with you.  The updated study I shared was only 3 years old.

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.I asked you for some empirical evidence to suggest that umbilical stem cells were as effective as fetal stem cells, and you provided a long list of sites promoting umbilical stem cells.

Wrong again.  I sent you links to 7 publications which discussed such studies ,and links to 7 Federally funded clinical studies reported by the National Library of Medicine.

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How did providing the studies you asked for not answer your question to please provide studies?

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When pressed, you admitted being unable to provide me with the information I asked you for.  So I will ask you again, what do you base your conclusion that umbilical stem cells are as effective as fetal stem cells? 

Where in my posts did I come to this conclusion?

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I respect your opinions and beliefs also, but I'm afraid you have also assumed things about me that are false.  I do not believe in forcing anyone to do (or not to do) anything.  I am open about not liking abortion, and about thinking it is the wrong choice to make.  I have never said, nor will I say, it should be illegal.  That keeps coming up, and I'm not sure why.

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You believe the soul begins with the spark of life, and the spark of life begins with bacteria, and humans are no greater than any other living thing.  I don't share the same opinions but once again, I respect your belief.  I believe only humans have souls (in the God-given sense) and that it is wrong to cease a soul from living before it has the chance.  Period.  You said I believe an embryo is a self aware sentient being.  I do not know why you  think I believe that, as it is incorrect.  Unless of course I ran your sentence together while reading it and misinterpreted it.

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Me: You believe differentlly than me, from some of what you posted I would assume you are judeo-christian (Icould be wrong)... Im not a judeo-christian or a protestant. I do not share your beliefs

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My concern with late term abortion is "the health of the mother" came to mean anything, including depression, as I understood it.

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And I'm glad you would ask a daughter if she had considered other options.  Many don't go that far.  I don't think people who abort are bad people.  I had friends who did.  I have a sister who did.  I love them the same.  I simply think there are better options.

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ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

Sinergy:

I will repeat this one last time, and I will write it really big so that it's not missed again:

I am not saying umbilical cord stems cells are as effective as fetal stem cells.  I said the topic should be brought up for discussion and researched, and we should be asking more questions about it.

Yet you insist on asking me why I think one is as good as the other.  It is very, very odd.  I did not say one was as effective as the other, and I can not prove that one is as effective as the other, therefore I can not possibly answer your question as to why one is as effective as the other.  Why you continue asking me to prove that one is as effective as the other truly escapes me.

So this concludes our conversation, as it is futile to continue when words I continue to repeat are clearly not comprehended.

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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

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ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

I think the percentages speak for themselves. It's the women themselves that give the reasons for their wanting an abortion, they don't have a category imposed on them.

I had a friend that had an abortion because the guy who got her pregnant beat the shit out of her, perhaps that is one of the "convenient" abortions you were speaking of?

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ORIGINAL: farglebargle

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This argument is a red herring, there are many areas where the individual doesn't have right of self-determination in our society and civil liberties are arbitarily defined by interest groups and have no foundation in an intellectual argument (if discussing abortion can ever get as far as an intellectual argument.)

If the Mother doesn't own the child, who does?

If you don't own yourself, who does?

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ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

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ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

I think the percentages speak for themselves. It's the women themselves that give the reasons for their wanting an abortion, they don't have a category imposed on them.

I had a friend that had an abortion because the guy who got her pregnant beat the shit out of her, perhaps that is one of the "convenient" abortions you were speaking of?

These stories (true or urban myth)are red herrings and just illustrate the anemic defence of abortion. No one is suggesting abortion should be banned, certainly not in medical cases and cases of mental distress. However, the fact is, that most women having an abortion when asked the reason they want one, around 80% of the reasons are to do with life style.

So for every two nightmare stories that can be provided, eight stories can be provided something like this:

My wife used to work in finance in the City of London. When she got pregnant the first thing her (female) colleagues expected, was for her to say she was going to have an abortion because a child would interfer with her career. Several of her colleagues had had an abortion so not to interfer with their careers. In fact one of her colleagues who had had two abortions said, she just flips on the bolly and forgets all about contraception. These were educated and successful women, not poor down trodden women from a ghetto. They could afford a child and pay for a nanny or a nursery while they carried on work but a child is still there when you get home from a night on the town.

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ORIGINAL: Archer
What exactly about that possition are you in disagreement with?

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ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

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ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

I think the percentages speak for themselves. It's the women themselves that give the reasons for their wanting an abortion, they don't have a category imposed on them.

I had a friend that had an abortion because the guy who got her pregnant beat the shit out of her, perhaps that is one of the "convenient" abortions you were speaking of?

These stories (true or urban myth)are red herrings and just illustrate the anemic defence of abortion. No one is suggesting abortion should be banned, certainly not in medical cases and cases of mental distress. However, the fact is, that most women having an abortion when asked the reason they want one, around 80% of the reasons are to do with life style.

So for every two nightmare stories that can be provided, eight stories can be provided something like this:

My wife used to work in finance in the City of London. When she got pregnant the first thing her (female) colleagues expected, was for her to say she was going to have an abortion because a child would interfer with her career. Several of her colleagues had had an abortion so not to interfer with their careers. In fact one of her colleagues who had had two abortions said, she just flips on the bolly and forgets all about contraception. These were educated and successful women, not poor down trodden women from a ghetto. They could afford a child and pay for a nanny or a nursery while they carried on work but a child is still there when you get home from a night on the town.

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ORIGINAL: LotusSong

Is there ANY reason why a guy can't just cover his cock and use a frigging CONDOM!?  (god forbid he "ruin his moment'

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ORIGINAL: LotusSong

Is there ANY reason why a guy can't just cover his cock and use a frigging CONDOM!?  (god forbid he "ruin his moment'

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ORIGINAL: sissifytoserve

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ORIGINAL: Level

Rush has a lot of intelligence, he can be quite funny, and he can make a persuasive point, especially in writing (I guess the written form allows him a chance to think before "speaking"...)

But....

He can also be cruel, idiotic, arrogant, close-minded, and breathtakingly hypocritical.

That fat, hypocritical, oxycotin gobbling LIAR is nothing but a bought and paid for shill for the neoconservative movement.