Get a little lower, baby... (Full Version)

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songbird26 -> Get a little lower, baby... (1/31/2005 6:40:32 PM)

Question time again!

In my bdsm experience, I've discovered that I have two distinct 'spaces' that I go to in play. Only twice in the entire time I've been active have I reached that incredible "pleasepleaseanythingmorepleaseletmeserveyouANYTHINGplease" place (god I love that place. crave it, really). Most of the time I feel pretty 'normal', though relaxed or turned on or anxious or interested in the situation. But the other 'space,' unfortunately also common for me, is an entirely different thing. I get mad, basically; six kinds of pissed off and ready to rumble. It's almost a macho competetive space, and generally manifests internally as "you think you're big and bad and tough? You've never even *imagined* tough like this. Bring it, fucker, let's go." Which, although interesting enough from a sociological and psychological standpoint, isn't exactly constructive in a setting where you're trying to reach submission and obedience! *grin*

What I've also figured out is that it's all about the beginning of the scene, for me. Either I go down or I don't, and after the first few crucial minutes have passed, no matter how hard I fight, I can't seem to change the course of my own emotional place for the scene. Given that, and that I know what has worked so far to get me to the 'good' place, when, if ever, would it be appropriate to sort of raise my hand and let the dominant know that it's just not working for me (just to be clear: were I ever truly uncomfortable or deeply angry or frightened at the situation I would not hesitate to safeword or slowword out)? IS there a way to bring this up in pre-scene negotiation that doesn't sound pushy or bottom-toppy? I've rarely had a dominant who asked what worked for me in that capacity: usually the negotiation is more about planning the action, not setting the emotional tone, and they just go full speed ahead with whatever they've done in the past to open a scene. Which means that the burden of broaching the topic would be on me. I'm going on the assumption that most real dominants would *like* to know how to help their submissive reach headspace that allows them to really absorb and adore and enjoy the scene, as opposed to just enduring it (I know that's not true for all dominants, but hey, I probably won't be playing with those ones anyway). Not to mention they'd be into having information that would allow me to truly transfer power to them, to submit for real instead of just play-acting. Should this be saved for post-scene debriefing, even if a scene that doesn't go right might derail a promising relationship?

I've already asked my dear Protagonist_lily this question and received an excellent answer, but I find myself very curious, since I know that every dominant is different and that many probably have interesting thoughts on the subject. Would it affect your own scene enjoyment or top space to be interrupted near the beginning to change directions a bit? Would it irritate you? Doms aren't mind readers, and I don't blame them for mis-cueing sometimes, but how might it be possible for me to affect something so important? Especially without coming across as a complete snot who deserves a smack (and not the good kind...)

(and now I'm wondering if subs faking headspace is a epidemic phenomenon like women faking orgasms. Hmmm. Something to ponder...)

ETA: This post really only has relevance in the context of a new partner or dominant for a scene. And believe me, I'm not expecting every scene to be this magical pefect place where domination and submission meet in exquisite harmony while leatherclad angels play their spiked harps and...you get the picture. However. Seems like this kind of info exchange would be beneficial to both dom and sub, in the long run!




topcat -> RE: Get a little lower, baby... (1/31/2005 10:45:40 PM)

quote:

Given that, and that I know what has worked so far to get me to the 'good' place, when, if ever, would it be appropriate to sort of raise my hand and let the dominant know that it's just not working for me


My dear 'Bird-

I'd split hairs a little finer here, and offer two answers.

In a public place, with a subject that I don't know well enough to read well, I will check in- that is, I will step up and ask, making it part of the scene, hand at the nape of her neck, close enough that she can smell me and do a body check as much as a verbal one- if I am as good as I am supposed to be, she might be non-verbal, even if she isn't processing it well.

Privately- I'll ask, but if I haven't and it isn't working, I want to hear it- plain out and up front.


quote:

I'm going on the assumption that most real dominants would *like* to know how to help their submissive reach headspace that allows them to really absorb and adore and enjoy the scene, as opposed to just enduring it (I know that's not true for all dominants, but hey, I probably won't be playing with those ones anyway).


Well, there are times that it might be about enduring it- and handled right, even that can lead to that swift sweet slide down that I'd be shooting for. But that is a valid statement, even if you did use the 'R' word<g>.

quote:

I'm not expecting every scene to be this magical pefect place where domination and submission meet in exquisite harmony while leatherclad angels play their spiked harps and...


That's good to hear<g>.

Stay warm,

Lawrence




MizSuz -> RE: Get a little lower, baby... (2/1/2005 5:03:02 AM)

With a new top I'd make an explanation of the different places you can go and what takes you there a part of the initial discussion. I'd also explain what I was hoping for in this scene. Then I'd be ready to accept whatever comes.

As for the 'dark place' of anger...just because it's aggressive doesn't mean it's not submission. Just because it's not warm and fuzzy doesn't mean you didn't 'get there.' It just means you ended up in a place that's tougher for you and presents more challenges.

I top a lot of bottoms that go to the anger place. When I bottom I'm more likely to go to the anger and/or animal place and can say that I've never personally experienced the floaty experience from bottoming. That can be a very hot scene if the top knows what's happening and can work with it.

Honest reaction, or the lack thereof, is more interesting to me than being mentally masturbated by the bottom. Really, I don't need to you prop my dominance up. [:D]





topcat -> RE: Get a little lower, baby... (2/1/2005 6:01:26 AM)

quote:

As for the 'dark place' of anger...just because it's aggressive doesn't mean it's not submission. Just because it's not warm and fuzzy doesn't mean you didn't 'get there.' It just means you ended up in a place that's tougher for you and presents more challenges.


Madame-

Excellent point- I can recall a really good scene that involved me taking a kick to the head <g>. Bailey just needed a little help- and some ankle cuffs- to properly experiance the scene.

I think, too, that there is a really powerful space that one can find by going through the resistance, past the anger.


quote:

Really, I don't need to you prop my dominance up.


Brillant- as always.

Stay warm,
Lawrence




songbird26 -> RE: Get a little lower, baby... (2/1/2005 6:22:43 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MizSuz

I top a lot of bottoms that go to the anger place. When I bottom I'm more likely to go to the anger and/or animal place and can say that I've never personally experienced the floaty experience from bottoming. That can be a very hot scene if the top knows what's happening and can work with it.

Honest reaction, or the lack thereof, is more interesting to me than being mentally masturbated by the bottom. Really, I don't need to you prop my dominance up. [:D]



Well and succinctly put. *grin* The beginning stages of a relationship are so delicate, though, that I think just about everyone (dom, sub, vanilla) does the dance of 'put my best foot forward.' When you're in that dance, being interrupted and corrected or critiqued can be especially painful from either side, so it's less of a dominance-prop than a social nicety (the faking thing, I mean, which I assume is what we're talking about). Of course, the dominant that makes it clear that that sort of nicety is neither appreciated nor expected will probably get a different reaction, if the sub can overcome knee-jerk social conditioning. Even in collars and cuffs and tied to the bed, that's a lot harder than it sounds sometimes.

As for the "animal place"--great way to describe it--I'm always worried that I'll hurt someone. Physically, I mean. It's an interesting place to be, that's for sure, and not very comfortable. But I can imagine it would be a fascinating place to go, with a dominant that knew how to play with that space. Definitely an interesting point, and thank you for making it!




songbird26 -> RE: Get a little lower, baby... (2/1/2005 6:35:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: topcat

Privately- I'll ask, but if I haven't and it isn't working, I want to hear it- plain out and up front.


Thank you.

quote:

Well, there are times that it might be about enduring it- and handled right, even that can lead to that swift sweet slide down that I'd be shooting for. But that is a valid statement, even if you did use the 'R' word<g>.


I can see how that could work, but I would definitely hope that it was a conscious decision on the part of the dominant, who had made the call to go that direction (maybe to see if they could find a new path to subspace or a new space altogether? Definitely fun and interesting), and wasn't doing it by accident or without purpose. Which goes back to the information exchange, which you answered so clearly above. Thank you again!




ProtagonistLily -> RE: Get a little lower, baby... (2/1/2005 8:14:43 AM)

quote:

Privately- I'll ask, but if I haven't and it isn't working, I want to hear it- plain out and up front.


Ditto for me on this. I'm always checking during a scene. I'm looking for certain things...if I have a sub bound to something, like a Cross, I want to make sure the hands aren't blue or cold, hense circulation problems. But I also want to do a head check as well. So, when I ask a submissive, during a scene how they are, I expect them to be able to give me some indication of where they are at....if they can't give that verbally, I expect a hand gesture or some kind of sign that things are alright. Communication is so key here...and will only enhance the dynamic.

And it's ok if things aren't going well. But I took "Swami" out of my kink resume long ago. I certainly have no real objective that requires the bottom to just be a manniquine and suck it up. In almost all of the casual play I do, I'm interested in making it good for both parties.

As I always say, and try to remember, if it's not fun, why bother? ~wink~

Lily




domtimothy46176 -> RE: Get a little lower, baby... (2/3/2005 8:47:49 AM)

Excellent point, Lawrence, and one I haven't seen addressed much. I find myself drawn to extremely strong-minded submissives and I find it much more rewarding to work through her internal resistance and the resulting submission much deeper and more intense.
Timothy

quote:

ORIGINAL: topcat

quote:

As for the 'dark place' of anger...just because it's aggressive doesn't mean it's not submission. Just because it's not warm and fuzzy doesn't mean you didn't 'get there.' It just means you ended up in a place that's tougher for you and presents more challenges.


Madame-

Excellent point- I can recall a really good scene that involved me taking a kick to the head <g>. Bailey just needed a little help- and some ankle cuffs- to properly experiance the scene.

I think, too, that there is a really powerful space that one can find by going through the resistance, past the anger.


quote:

Really, I don't need to you prop my dominance up.


Brillant- as always.

Stay warm,
Lawrence






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