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Musings on physical control - 10/31/2006 10:32:28 PM   
Najakcharmer


Posts: 2121
Joined: 5/3/2004
Status: offline 		Thoughts from a thread that was removed for trollishness.  Why physical strength does not and cannot equate to reliable control over another living creature.

Ever seen a trainer work with an orca, a big cat, an elephant, a horse or any other big/dangerous zoo animal?  There is absolutely no question that the animal could squash the trainer like a bug, or eat them, or step on them, or kick them into next Tuesday.  There is also no question about who is in control of the interaction.  Hint: if it's not the much smaller and more fragile human trainer who is in control, you'll hear about it on the news because the trainer will be lunchmeat.  The ratio of animal to human is so great that it really doesn't matter if it's a 120 lb woman or a 180 lb man.  The 180 lb man cannot outmuscle the 700 lb bear any better than the 120 lb woman can.  The techniques being used to establish and maintain control in these interactions have nothing to do with physical strength.  They can't, and it's not even possible to try. 

Brute force does not automatically equal control.  In fact, trying to get control by force is counterproductive in any situation where you want a sustainable long term relationship.  Force of will, experience, intelligence and correctly applied skill does equate to control.  There are plenty of human CEO's who could not beat a construction worker in an arm wrestling match, but they're still the CEO's and the construction workers are still construction workers.  They don't have what it takes to be a CEO no matter how big their biceps are.  Muscles do not a CEO make. 

Animals that are beaten and "force broken" will reliably turn on their trainers as soon as they think they can get away with it.  Humans who are beaten and threatened will run away as soon as they can and they will call the police.  Physical strength has nothing to do with establishing and maintaining long term control in a relationship, whether you're talking about BDSM or animal training.   If it did, it would be quite impossible to work with horses, let alone with any of the bigger zoo animals.

Like animal training, consensual D/s works not because one person is physically stronger than the other, but because the time is taken to establish a sustainable relationship of trust and the correct behavioral principles are applied for the trainer to take control.  Introducing brute physical force into this equation actually tends to be counterproductive, as it makes the subject feel seriously threatened, defensive and possibly even in desperate fear for their life and safety rather than trusting and willing to obey.  It doesn't work in a zoo setting and it equally doesn't work in a human to human relationship.  The results are likely to be quite spectacularly bad if it's tried. 

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RE: Musings on physical control - 10/31/2006 11:15:15 PM   
LadyOunce


Posts: 126
Joined: 10/18/2006
Status: offline 		I actually used the horse training analogy in that same thread.

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RE: Musings on physical control - 10/31/2006 11:23:12 PM   
DiurnalVampire


Posts: 8125
Joined: 1/19/2006
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline 		Why physical control can be part of the kink, it has its imits.  Mainly, I do not plan on being close enough to my boy 24/7 to exert physical control over his activities.  If I cannot train him mentally, then keeping him is useless.  He desires to learn, which is why he is able to. Am I physically capable of beating him into submission, yes.  I am a black belt in more than one martial art and well trained to hurt someone if the need arises.  Has he ever once feared me doing that to him, never. I wouldnt allow it. If I ever thought that he was submitting out of fear rather than actual desire, it would end our realtionship. There can be no trust when you cant feel safe in someones care.

DV



_____________________________

I will be your Dominate if you will be my submit - Fox

Snarko Ergo Sum
If you cannot change your mind, how are you so sure you still have one? -proverb

*Owner of Fox - collared 10/13/07*
VampiresLair

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RE: Musings on physical control - 10/31/2006 11:31:38 PM   
LadyOunce


Posts: 126
Joined: 10/18/2006
Status: offline 		Exactly. Many dommes are capable of physically controlling their submissives but if that is all they have to rely on, then a whole plethora of training and lessons is being missed.

D/s is not purely about the physical side of sex, just pain and floggings and the like. At least not for so many. For myself it's about a connection, the exchange of power and the way two, or more, people work as a unit.

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RE: Musings on physical control - 10/31/2006 11:51:35 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline 		Ah, since I do believe my post in that thread got lost amongst the chaos, perhaps you all won't mind if I repost it here. :)

My response to the statement that women are physically incapable of being dominant.

The gaze of a powerful woman can stop a man dead in his tracks. Her breath whispered softly into his ear sends shivers down his spine. The smell of her drives him wild with longing, her disappointment is his greatest fear. Power comes in all shapes, all sizes, all genders. It's the innate, intangible ability to control without words, without force. A single nail gently traced along the back is more power than a boxer's left hook.

Never watch a woman walk - the way her calf muscle bulges slightly as she takes a step, the way her hips sway .. the sadness you feel as she walks away from you rather than towards you . Be immune to the beauty, the grace she exudes. Never seek to touch her hair.. the softness can wrap around you like a blanket and when it's gone, you will freeze from it's loss. Never seek her attention, avoid the desire she has for you in her eyes .. blind yourself for fear you may succumb to the power of a woman.

The edge is before you ... never take the step, for you do not have the ability to fly and can only fall to your death, crashing below on rocks of narrow and jagged spires.

Use the sledge hammer.. it drives no point home - it just destroys what comes beneath it's head ... but use the feather and others will strain to taste your power. Scream and never be heard ... whisper and the world will fall silent to hear you.

Celeste


_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to LadyOunce)
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RE: Musings on physical control - 11/1/2006 4:47:35 AM   
Lashra


Posts: 4900
Joined: 2/9/2006
Status: offline 		BitaTruble summed it up beautifully. Most women never have to raise a hand or their voice to get a man to do what they want him to do. What is that saying? If the Mama ain't happy no body will be happy? lol its true.

My sub serves me because he desires to please me, not because I beat him into submission. The mental aspects are much more powerful then the phyiscal ones. I also truly believe that if you have to force your sub to serve, then there is a HUGE problem.

~Lashra


_____________________________

“We can never judge the lives of others, because each person knows only their own pain and renunciation. It's one thing to feel that you are on the right path, but it's another to think that yours is the only path.”






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RE: Musings on physical control - 11/1/2006 5:23:41 AM   
DiannaVesta


Posts: 1087
Joined: 2/6/2006
From: Mid-Atlantic area
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

Ah, since I do believe my post in that thread got lost amongst the chaos, perhaps you all won't mind if I repost it here. :)

My response to the statement that women are physically incapable of being dominant.

The gaze of a powerful woman can stop a man dead in his tracks. Her breath whispered softly into his ear sends shivers down his spine. The smell of her drives him wild with longing, her disappointment is his greatest fear. Power comes in all shapes, all sizes, all genders. It's the innate, intangible ability to control without words, without force. A single nail gently traced along the back is more power than a boxer's left hook.

Never watch a woman walk - the way her calf muscle bulges slightly as she takes a step, the way her hips sway .. the sadness you feel as she walks away from you rather than towards you . Be immune to the beauty, the grace she exudes. Never seek to touch her hair.. the softness can wrap around you like a blanket and when it's gone, you will freeze from it's loss. Never seek her attention, avoid the desire she has for you in her eyes .. blind yourself for fear you may succumb to the power of a woman.

The edge is before you ... never take the step, for you do not have the ability to fly and can only fall to your death, crashing below on rocks of narrow and jagged spires.

Use the sledge hammer.. it drives no point home - it just destroys what comes beneath it's head ... but use the feather and others will strain to taste your power. Scream and never be heard ... whisper and the world will fall silent to hear you.

Celeste



I love it!




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RE: Musings on physical control - 11/1/2006 5:48:55 AM   
Jasmyn


Posts: 1234
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: New Zealand
Status: offline 		What a great post Celeste

_____________________________

quote:

"To learn the art of submission a slave must first give up the desires that drew him to submission in the first place." Mistress Jasmyn Jan 2005.


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RE: Musings on physical control - 11/1/2006 7:35:06 AM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline 		Also if one relies on physical force or violence to control someone, then that force and violence must be constantly applied and reenforced.

It requires either continuous micromanagement by the person trying to control another or micromanages through a substitute.

This is easier when entire cultures have laws and social expectations that support such slavery, racism, religious persecution, classism, or sexism (to name but a few). However it is never a 100% secure system and usually those "in power" spend a great deal of their time just maintaining it that it undermines other advancements they might have and creates a strong negative psychological effect on everyone in the society.

Personally I prefer the lower stress authority that comes from consent and desire over the constant threat of some backlash.

< Message edited by thetammyjo -- 11/1/2006 7:36:41 AM >

_____________________________

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TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to Najakcharmer)
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RE: Musings on physical control - 11/1/2006 8:32:45 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		Celeste, you write so beautifully! Thank you so much for that.

It's true isn't it, the power women have. It always amazes me how few women are really conscious of it. To me it is like a fabulous secret, a secret super power. The key is to use it for good not evil...muahahahahaaaaaa

Seriously, I have never felt my physical strength or lack thereof to be an issue.

Another thing which I was contemplating yesterday after reading something, language as communication, and how really limiting it is. I think I communicate much better in person without any words at all.

< Message edited by LaTigresse -- 11/1/2006 8:33:39 AM >

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: Musings on physical control - 11/1/2006 12:00:36 PM   
Najakcharmer


Posts: 2121
Joined: 5/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble
The gaze of a powerful woman can stop a man dead in his tracks. Her breath whispered softly into his ear sends shivers down his spine. The smell of her drives him wild with longing, her disappointment is his greatest fear. Power comes in all shapes, all sizes, all genders. It's the innate, intangible ability to control without words, without force. A single nail gently traced along the back is more power than a boxer's left hook.


Very well written and evocative, but you're specifically describing a woman's use of her sexual desirability to control a man.  There is nothing wrong with that if that's your idea of fun, but it is definitely not a method I use or appreciate personally.  I am not particularly interested in having power that comes from wearing makeup or primping my hair, or from how another person percieves me.  I try to respect women who do feel that their dominant power is based on their attractiveness, but I will confess that it is a difficult and uphill battle.   I find it very difficult to understand the notion of power and dominance and the ability to take control being dependent on whether or not  a man finds you attractive.

I come from an animal training background, and most of the time when I am working to take control of another living creature, sex isn't in the equation.  My strength of will, my skill and competence and my ability to remain calm and controlled are the sole determining factors.  My life literally depends on my ability.  I'm either damn good at what I do, utterly confident and in total control of myself and the situation, or I'm dead.  That kind of power to dominate and take control by force of will and competence has nothing to do with being pretty or pleasing a man.  It has objective reality that does not depend on anyone else's perception, judgements or personal opinions.   If it's real, then I do my job and walk out alive. If it's not, I don't.

This way of taking power and control is neither better nor worse than using sexual power.  It's just different, and for me that difference is important because it makes my personal power completely independent of how any other human being percieves me.  My personal power is my strength, my confidence, my competence, my skills and experience.  It can be fun to dress up and get all prettified, but I don't really associate that with personal power, and I won't waste time on it when there's a job to do. 

I'm really not trying to be condescending or look down my nose at other women who feel that their personal power does come from their sexual attractiveness.  My personal feelings on that subject are my issue, not anyone else's, and I apologize in advance if I'm offending.  I just find it difficult to understand how that kind of power can be real when it basically depends on pleasing a man and on what other people think of you.  Perhaps others who understand it better can explain.

(in reply to BitaTruble)
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RE: Musings on physical control - 11/1/2006 12:52:29 PM   
demistress


Posts: 391
Joined: 4/24/2006
From: Dela-where?
Status: offline 		Unfortunately I have had to physically overpower two male subs who "switched" mid session without prior discussion or consent, and then attempted to rape me.  I was lucky, I was their physical superior, plus when I feel like I'm in danger, I don't fight 'fair'.  I'm sure they were turned on by it, before they passed out from lack of bloodflow to the brain.  That was not OK in my book.  Now I only play with my 6'7" 380lb roommate in the home.  Is my dominance based on my ability to physically dominate those I take power over?  No.  Is it nice to know I can defend myself in my own home?  Yes.  Should I ever have to?  No.

_____________________________

Mistress Heather
www.niteflirt.com/MizzSpice

Wether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right!

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RE: Musings on physical control - 11/1/2006 1:01:32 PM   
crouchingtigress


Posts: 4387
Joined: 3/19/2006
From: Maui
Status: offline 		I can understand you Najakcharmer but i doubt i can explain it any better then you did,....i work with animals too, viscous dogs, wild horses...and all i can say is there is a relief they feel as soon as they realize there is some one constant, who is not a threat to them, who wants to lead them....and i have found most men to be the same way.
 
 
Celeste wow what wonderful word weaving, thank you! awesome thoughts, made me swallow hard and catch my breath...have you written anything thing i could read?
 
and Tigresse...i think we all have that power.....its rare but there are some men that have honed and are acutely aware of it....
 

_____________________________


Service slut, durable plaything, and ponypenquincatdogpig, to Lee Harrington

This is him

"Its none of my buisness what other people think of me."




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RE: Musings on physical control - 11/1/2006 1:58:34 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Najakcharmer


Very well written and evocative, but you're specifically describing a woman's use of her sexual desirability to control a man. 


" Power comes in all shapes, all sizes, all genders. It's the innate, intangible ability to control without words, without force."

I believe this ties everything together for the post and was the single most important sentence in it. This trancends sexuality, sensuality, gender and style. It is about the energy, the authority.  Everything else is trimming in my particular writing style, Najekcharmer, but this is the meat.

Your style may not be mine. How you choose to control is between you and your partners, but I dare say, the essence of what you do boils down to the same thing as what I do. You are in control with your particular style.. and I am in control with mine.. and that, to me, is the point. A woman can dominant a man, regardless of style and getting that point across was my original purpose.

Sensuality is part of my nature and being and I believe that it comes out in my writing style. It's just 'my' way.. not 'the' way. :)

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to Najakcharmer)
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RE: Musings on physical control - 11/1/2006 2:05:41 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: crouchingtigress

Celeste wow what wonderful word weaving, thank you! awesome thoughts, made me swallow hard and catch my breath...have you written anything thing i could read?


I'm slowly adding my stuff to myspace, CT.. feel free to go out there.. and, I also put a lot of stuff in my journal here. :)

Thank you for the compliment!

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to crouchingtigress)
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RE: Musings on physical control - 11/1/2006 9:59:41 PM   
Najakcharmer


Posts: 2121
Joined: 5/3/2004
Status: offline 		Thank you for the explanation, Celeste.  I certainly was not judging any style of dominance as better than any other style, except for a particular individual to whom it is personally suited. 

I'm still quite curious about the viewpoint of "sexual attractiveness as power" and hope to gain some enlightenment on the subject from other folk whose style differs from mine. 

Cheers,

Naja

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RE: Musings on physical control - 11/1/2006 10:23:59 PM   
MistressSassy66


Posts: 1675
Joined: 11/5/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

Ah, since I do believe my post in that thread got lost amongst the chaos, perhaps you all won't mind if I repost it here. :)

My response to the statement that women are physically incapable of being dominant.

The gaze of a powerful woman can stop a man dead in his tracks. Her breath whispered softly into his ear sends shivers down his spine. The smell of her drives him wild with longing, her disappointment is his greatest fear. Power comes in all shapes, all sizes, all genders. It's the innate, intangible ability to control without words, without force. A single nail gently traced along the back is more power than a boxer's left hook.

Never watch a woman walk - the way her calf muscle bulges slightly as she takes a step, the way her hips sway .. the sadness you feel as she walks away from you rather than towards you . Be immune to the beauty, the grace she exudes. Never seek to touch her hair.. the softness can wrap around you like a blanket and when it's gone, you will freeze from it's loss. Never seek her attention, avoid the desire she has for you in her eyes .. blind yourself for fear you may succumb to the power of a woman.

The edge is before you ... never take the step, for you do not have the ability to fly and can only fall to your death, crashing below on rocks of narrow and jagged spires.

Use the sledge hammer.. it drives no point home - it just destroys what comes beneath it's head ... but use the feather and others will strain to taste your power. Scream and never be heard ... whisper and the world will fall silent to hear you.

Celeste




Oh how true those words are.

_____________________________

Mistress Sassy

http://www.mistresssassy.com

In the Immortal Words of Bob....Fuck the dumb shit.

"I love you not only for what you are,But for what I am when I'm with you."- Opening line from a poem by Roy Croft

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RE: Musings on physical control - 11/2/2006 1:34:19 AM   
Hercuckslave


Posts: 103
Joined: 5/21/2006
Status: offline 		Mistress weighs about 125lbs...i weigh over 200.  Physically I am much stronger than she is.  But a word from her, or even a certain look in her eye is enough to put me down into submission.  Its not about physical power.

Back in April, Mistress and i celebrated the 5 year anniversary of my collar with a recollaring ceremony.  One of our friends gave us the BEST card.  It had a black and white photo from the 30's or 40's of a tiny little girl of about 4, huge smile on her face, holding the leash of a HUGE great dane...happy, content, calm, dopey dog face.  It totally captured the essence of our relatioship.  That card sits proudly framed on a table in the living room.

M's m

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RE: Musings on physical control - 11/2/2006 7:56:50 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hercuckslave

Mistress weighs about 125lbs...i weigh over 200.  Physically I am much stronger than she is.  But a word from her, or even a certain look in her eye is enough to put me down into submission.  Its not about physical power.

Back in April, Mistress and i celebrated the 5 year anniversary of my collar with a recollaring ceremony.  One of our friends gave us the BEST card.  It had a black and white photo from the 30's or 40's of a tiny little girl of about 4, huge smile on her face, holding the leash of a HUGE great dane...happy, content, calm, dopey dog face.  It totally captured the essence of our relatioship.  That card sits proudly framed on a table in the living room.

M's m


Thank you for writing this. It gave me something to think about from the male sub/slave perspective.


_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to Hercuckslave)
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RE: Musings on physical control - 11/2/2006 9:51:47 AM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline 		Sounds to me like you are challenging subs to a duel.

I accept.

You chose the weapons.

-------

There's a famous movie line about the US, wherein the character says, "You can tell the US is in decline by its desperate reliance on military might."

(I think I mangled the quote.)

-------

And, the other thing I infer here, which I really like, is that we subs are like ORCA WHALES, BEARS, and LIONS.

I'd type on some more, but right now I feel compelled to pump my chest and roar out the window (you know, to establish my territory and all that....)


------

Not much said about sexual manipulation, but you note that later on. I think most animal trainers have platonic relationships with their subjects, except of course in the red states where anything goes.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 11/2/2006 9:55:07 AM >

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