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A Question of Free Speech by Immigrants - 11/3/2006 7:15:47 AM

candystripper

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Sheik Taj Din al-Hilali, of Australia, speaking of unveiled women, recently said: "They attract sexual predators -- like "uncovered meat" attracts animals, the cleric said -- and if "the cats come and eat it... whose fault is it, the cats or the uncovered meat? The uncovered meat is the problem."

This comment raises so many issues. In another land where free speech is protected, like the USA, would the Shiek's comments be met with the outrage they caused in Australia? (Undoubtedly.)

In a world where people seem to be emigrating more than before, should O/one try and impose O/one's standards on O/one's adopted land? For example, there are topless beaches in France and Brazil; if i chose to move there, is it fair for me to try and outlaw such conduct?

And, if this is not the case, should i find like-minded Americans and try to form an enclave? What happens to the people this enclave mingles with or displaces?

What if my beliefs are not simple opinions, but religious dogma? Should that matter in judging me as the immigrant?

i myself do not know what to make of the problem...it seems as if the answer is dictated by the question/lens through which it is viewed.

candystripper

< Message edited by candystripper -- 11/3/2006 7:20:39 AM >

Post #: 1

RE: A Question of Free Speech by Immigrants - 11/3/2006 7:22:01 AM

ToGiveDivine

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Here, kitty, kitty, kitty ;-P

Okay seriously, people with an axe to grind are often looking for a place to chop up - there are too many religious fanatics that have taken the goodness of spirituality and corrupted it for their own use - they will pay in time.

Why do you strip for candy? What kind of fetish is that?

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RE: A Question of Free Speech by Immigrants - 11/3/2006 7:26:40 AM

Arpig

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quote:

is it fair for me to try and outlaw such conduct?

Yes, of course it is fair for you to try change any law you want. If enough of the right people support you, then the law will change.

quote:

i myself do not know what to make of the problem

I myself do not quite understand just what the "problem" is. A person made a statement that you disagree with....he has the right to say it, and to tey persuade the rest of the country to go along with him, and you have the right to dislike what he said, and to try persuade the country not to go along with him.
Another thing I don't get is what the speaker's being an immigrant has to do with the question, how is Sheik Ali-Whatever making an ignorant statement about women any different than Rev. Billy-Bob making an ignorant statement about gay marriage? Both are ignorant discriminatory statements, both are equally objectionable, yet both speakers have the right to make those statements, and I for one have always, and will continue to defend their right to make utter asses of themselves.

My advice to all and sundry is to live by the words of Voltaire: "I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."

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RE: A Question of Free Speech by Immigrants - 11/3/2006 7:29:27 AM

LadyEllen

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The sheikh has a culture which proposes such views, and we must above all else respect that culture and not breathe a word against it but in fact enable it to prosper. I'm thinking of turning Christian, 'cause apparently Christian culture has within it a certain way of thinking that proposes that heretics and blasphemers should be hanged or burnt at the stake. The sheikh, sadly would be a heretic or blasphemer in thay way of thinking, and the same people who would support his views because of cultural diversity, must ergo support my actions in saving his soul through rope or fire, again to support cultural diversity.

The man's a fool - but I believe he retracted the statement he made anyway. The telling thing though, is that he made it in the first place - but its not a Muslim thing, its the same view the police and society in general had towards rape until very recently. And it all comes from the same place, this idea of woman as the evil temptress who must be subjugated lest her evil overcome the poor male.......... when are we going to ban the hatred that comes from these religions, rather than banning the rightful dislike of them?

E

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RE: A Question of Free Speech by Immigrants - 11/3/2006 7:41:21 AM

LotusSong

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MY OPINION: One should adapt to the country's laws and customs they immigrate to. Practice what they wish within their own homes. Otherwise, why immigrate in the first place?

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I'm not inflatable.

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RE: A Question of Free Speech by Immigrants - 11/3/2006 7:46:15 AM

candystripper

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

is it fair for me to try and outlaw such conduct?

Yes, of course it is fair for you to try change any law you want. If enough of the right people support you, then the law will change.

quote:

i myself do not know what to make of the problem

I myself do not quite understand just what the "problem" is. A person made a statement that you disagree with....he has the right to say it, and to tey persuade the rest of the country to go along with him, and you have the right to dislike what he said, and to try persuade the country not to go along with him.
Another thing I don't get is what the speaker's being an immigrant has to do with the question, how is Sheik Ali-Whatever making an ignorant statement about women any different than Rev. Billy-Bob making an ignorant statement about gay marriage? Both are ignorant discriminatory statements, both are equally objectionable, yet both speakers have the right to make those statements, and I for one have always, and will continue to defend their right to make utter asses of themselves.

My advice to all and sundry is to live by the words of Voltaire: "I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."

Arpig, the reason that immigration enters into it is because the phrase "when in Rome, do as the Romans do" strikes a chord. On the other hand, if the individual emigrated from a very different culture, do T/they have an obligation to assimiliate or may T/they try and have T/their will imposed on the residents who arrived before?

If i take it into my head to emigrate to Afganistan, should i conform to societal mores and use a veil when outside? Should i insist on being protected from those who may be provoked if i go about with my hair uncovered? Even if i insist, is it feasible?

Maybe that helps clarify what i am trying to ask. i do not know the answer.

candystripper

< Message edited by candystripper -- 11/3/2006 7:48:39 AM >

(in reply to Arpig)

Post #: 6

RE: A Question of Free Speech by Immigrants - 11/3/2006 8:34:17 AM

toservez

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If a person moves to a "free" society then I think they have every right to voice their opinion and if they want to put in the effort to try to change things then they are free to do that. At the same time though people are free to laugh and dissagree with them and have no obligation to engage them in the debate.

As far as religious dogma driving a situation, again if the person chose to live there they have to accept the law and culture. Just because it does not match a person's ideal religious beliefs, does not make it a moral high ground subject.

When my family moved to America, we never thought that people should learn to communicate with us but for us to speak and learn English better. We did not judge the culture to be bad or good but what it was. My parents did not demand things from people that they were use to doing. They still did many things that our culture was and they liked, wanted and needed both in private and in public but never tried to force it on others like a moral judgement.

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RE: A Question of Free Speech by Immigrants - 11/3/2006 1:57:35 PM

Arpig

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To servez has hit the nail on the head: The Sheik emmigrated to a free society, and in a free society it is perfectly acceptable to try have laws, etc. changed to support any position whatsoever.
The example of moving to Afghanistan or Saudi isn't really relevant, as they are not really free societies (Afghanistan is trying to be one, but freedom isn't a habit easily acquired), and as such there are serious consequences to nonconformity.
If a woman wants to wear a veil....go for it, if a man wants to wear a dress...go for it. Hell as far as I am concerned, outside of safety issues on job sites, I don't think the state has any business in determining what we wear...and yes that also includes the option to wear nothing if one so chooses (I won't, don't panic, I am sadistic, but not that sadistic).

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Why do they leave out the letter b on "Garage Sale" signs?

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RE: A Question of Free Speech by Immigrants - 11/3/2006 2:02:25 PM

meatcleaver

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Naked? Thanks for sparing us the torture but I bet you'd look good in a burqa!

(in reply to Arpig)

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RE: A Question of Free Speech by Immigrants - 11/3/2006 2:13:17 PM

Sinergy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

MY OPINION: One should adapt to the country's laws and customs they immigrate to. Practice what they wish within their own homes. Otherwise, why immigrate in the first place?

"immigrants and faggots they make no sense to me,
they come to our country and think they'll do as they please,
like start some mini iran
or spread some fucking disease"

Guns N Roses "One in a Million"

Probably one of the most politically incorrect songs ever written.

Having stated that, I tend to agree with the posters comment that people who go to somebody else's country should endeavor to adhere to the laws and mores and customs of the country they go to.

Seems odd that somebody would go from Point A to Point B and try to make Point B into Point A.

Without wanting to print the lyrics out, Dire Straits covered the insanity of this sentiment in their song Telegraph Road.

http://www.lyricsfreak.com/d/dire+straits/telegraph+road_20040667.html

Just me, could be wrong, but there ya go.

Sinergy

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"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to LotusSong)

Post #: 10

RE: A Question of Free Speech by Immigrants - 11/3/2006 2:36:10 PM

Arpig

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I suspect a burqa would be a might better than naked

_____________________________

Big man! Pig Man!
Ha Ha...Charade you are!

Why do they leave out the letter b on "Garage Sale" signs?

CM's #1 All-Time Also-Ran

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 11

RE: A Question of Free Speech by Immigrants - 11/3/2006 2:37:32 PM

popeye1250

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From: New Hampshire
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A lot of people are now talking about ending immigration to the U.S. for 10-15 years. I have to say I agree with them.
As for that Asshole Sheik I'd like to see him thrown into a cage with a few dozen women wrestlers. On PMS. When they're having a bad hair day.
In my humble opinion I think all Western countries should stop immigration and let the other countries do it for the next 20 years.

(in reply to candystripper)

Post #: 12

RE: A Question of Free Speech by Immigrants - 11/3/2006 2:56:31 PM

gooddogbenji

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First off, freedom of speech means "Fuck you, women" is as acceptable as "Fuck you, Sheik Ali Abdel Assam Abdul." He can say what he wants, I can say what I want, and we can all piss ourselves getting mad.

Second, and this is in answer to candystripper's comment about "when in Rome," go to Rome. Or better yet, go to any Muslim country, and watch the American tourists. Often in Mosques they will have signs requesting the decency of t-shirts as opposed to tank tops, quite clearly visible.

You think we do as the Romans do?

As for the protection from breaking custom, he is not being protected just as we would not be protected. We create a giant verbal backlash, they might get more aggressive, but both would react within their cultural norms.

Does he have the right to say it? Immigrant or not, without a fucking doubt. If I can tell him he's an asshole, he can call my woman "uncovered meat."

End of story.

Yours,

benji

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RE: A Question of Free Speech by Immigrants - 11/3/2006 3:23:11 PM

Sinergy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gooddogbenji

he can call my woman "uncovered meat."

Correct me if I am wrong,

wouldnt you be her benji,

rather than her being yours?

jm, cbw, btyg

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to gooddogbenji)

Post #: 14

RE: A Question of Free Speech by Immigrants - 11/3/2006 3:25:58 PM

gooddogbenji

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She MAH woman, yo!

Yours,

benji

PS: But you're probably right.

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Prevent global warming. Stop burning patchouli.

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RE: A Question of Free Speech by Immigrants - 11/3/2006 6:10:45 PM

Arpig

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quote:

I'd like to see him thrown into a cage with a few dozen women wrestlers. On PMS. When they're having a bad hair day.

Popeye, you are one mean, MEAN, MEAN!! motherfucker!!
Hat's off to you.

_____________________________

Big man! Pig Man!
Ha Ha...Charade you are!

Why do they leave out the letter b on "Garage Sale" signs?

CM's #1 All-Time Also-Ran

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 16

RE: A Question of Free Speech by Immigrants - 11/3/2006 7:24:29 PM

UtopianRanger

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

MY OPINION: One should adapt to the country's laws and customs they immigrate to. Practice what they wish within their own homes. Otherwise, why immigrate in the first place?

Yes..... I think it's called ''assimilation''

- And it doesn't seem to be practiced like the immigrants of old.

- R

< Message edited by UtopianRanger -- 11/3/2006 7:25:06 PM >

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RE: A Question of Free Speech by Immigrants - 11/3/2006 7:38:26 PM

Sinergy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger

quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

MY OPINION: One should adapt to the country's laws and customs they immigrate to. Practice what they wish within their own homes. Otherwise, why immigrate in the first place?

Yes..... I think it's called ''assimilation'' - And it doesn't seem to be practiced like the immigrants of old.

- R

Which immigrants of old are those who assimilated into mainstream society?

The white people who slaughtered the locals in droves when they arrived in the 1700s?

The Irish who set up Irish ghettos in Boston?

The Italians who set up mobs and italian ghettos in New York?

The Mormon immigrants who set off and established a holy land in freaking Utah?

The immigrants from Mexico who set up their own towns, continued to speak their own language, and worked as migrant farm workers?

The Cuban immigrants who flooded to Miami and tried to turn it into a drug-infested gangster land in the 70s?

Reminds me of the way the Chinese tended, for thousands of years, to try to relate the current regime with the 3 Good Emperors of antiquity.

Just me, etc.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to UtopianRanger)

Post #: 18

RE: A Question of Free Speech by Immigrants - 11/3/2006 11:37:35 PM

UtopianRanger

Posts: 3251
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quote:

Which immigrants of old are those who assimilated into mainstream society?

HAR! A few of the examples you have listed still haven't assimilated - But, for those that have, they didn't let the language become a barrier.

Without a doubt the main difference of old {Ellis Island circa} is the desire to quickly learn the language. Whether it is Middle Eastern speaking peoples in Detroit or the immigrant Mexican population in Southern California, the continued push for bilingualism / bilingual education is the most problematic area.

The continued push for bilingualism/multiculturalism from immigrant special interest groups shows us a thought process that abandons the concept of assimilation and instead one that seeks to project an idea of separation and permanent enclavement.

Multiculturalism is a recipe for the destruction of our autonomy and cultural heritage ; it has never been successful in any country. Remember… whenever you have ''many'' different types of people, speaking ''many'' different languages, all merging together as one, they can't communicate.

- R

_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton

(in reply to Sinergy)

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RE: A Question of Free Speech by Immigrants - 11/4/2006 1:21:58 AM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gooddogbenji

Second, and this is in answer to candystripper's comment about "when in Rome," go to Rome. Or better yet, go to any Muslim country, and watch the American tourists. Often in Mosques they will have signs requesting the decency of t-shirts as opposed to tank tops, quite clearly visible.

You think we do as the Romans do?

Yours,

benji

From a British perspective, I absolutely agree with the above. Certain sections of our society are forever saying "the Muslims don't try and integrate". On the otherhand, there is a huge British community in Spain and by and large they keep themselves to themselves and most have not even thought about learning the language let alone attempted it. They just want to transport Britain to somewhere with some sun but heaven forbid these Muslim lessors coming into our country, taking the time to learn the language and contributing to our society with food, culture, sporting achievement etc.

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Post #: 20

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