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RE: Would you REALLY do that...? - 11/3/2006 11:28:07 PM   
imtempting


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

But I agree- it's nothing to do with dom/sub or master/slave or obedience or authority.  It's simple survival, trust and reaction- and it can occur in any relationship.


I agree. Its just something in the other persons voice that tells something in your mind to obey.  As LA said, it can happen anywhere.

Like an ad is AU says... It can happen sleeping, it can happen playing, it can happen working. It can happen any old time. matter of fact I got it now.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
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RE: Would you REALLY do that...? - 11/4/2006 12:05:03 AM   
MagiksSlave


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Honestly the jumping off the roof thing was poor thinking on the Doms part not the subs. Because with the way I trust my Master if he told me to jump off a bridge I would do it simply because I knew that what ever was on the bridge would do more harm to me then the fall (there had better be) Honeslty I learned this kind of trust from my mother. She always has loved us kids unconditionaly and has always tought us she would take a bullet for us so if there was something she told us to do we should know it was for our own good. She always told me that if she told me to jump off a bridge that there had to be something dangerouse on the bridge. And I always beleaved that. My Master is the first person that I could say that I trust as much as my mom (that sounds silly huh?) as well as the only other person I could really apply this saying and feeling too.

So it was for the Master to judge and the Master to consider the ladder it was only for the slave to obay and know that the Master would never do anything to harm them!!! So yes she jumped and listend to her Master but this is what is ingraned in  her to do yes she takes some foult for the fall but it was her Master that should have suggested the ladder but he didn't he panicked (Oh my G-d Masters are people too who would have thought) who is to say anyone of us wouldnt have reacted the same. And the truth is many of us would. He was scared for her safety and the only thought he had was to get her off the roof so no he didnt think so clearly as to how to get off the roof (as in the ladder 2 feet away) but humans dont think great under things like pressure panic  and fear. So give the girl a break!!!!

Ok sorry i know this didnt exactly answer the thread but some of the responses here upset me a bit and I felt the need to interject and defend the op sorry.

Magik's slave

_____________________________

If you’re going through hell keep on moving
don't slow down
if you’re scared dont show it
you might get out
before the devil even knows your there.


-Rodney Atkins-



(in reply to Emperor1956)
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RE: Would you REALLY do that...? - 11/4/2006 12:12:30 AM   
imtempting


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He did say jump not go down the ladder...

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RE: Would you REALLY do that...? - 11/4/2006 3:43:28 AM   
Kalira


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quote:

Also, I tend to think that our instinct takes over, and split second decisions come along that require action, that trust that develops becomes almost instinctual

I agree Julia. Instinct DOES take over to the point that 'obeying' becomes instinctual at times.
quote:

  I think that when we state unequivocably that this is a "sub" trait and this is a "dom" trait that we lose some of what is means to be human, and that is the ability to do anything we can to save and protect the life of a loved one, and the power of love to spur us to make certain choices that transcend Ds. I think protecting the life of my Daddy and his willingness to follow an order from me like "jump" that is designed to literally save his life is an example of something that transcends power exchange. That is just my opinion.



You are so absolutly correct. I mentioned in one of my earlier replies that it matters not what kind of relationship you are in; whether it be vanilla,D/s, or M/s; there comes a time where  something happens and you just react without thought. Alot seem to think that such a reaction lacks common sense and self-preservation on the side of the person who would blindly do such a thing.
I also wanted to add that your example of reversing the roles in this instance; you telling him to jump instead; is a wonderful example of how trust should flow between two or more people.

MagiksSlave: In response to your saying that he should not have panicked. The ladder was not an option for the simple reason that to get to it, I would have needed to go through the bee's  
I also want to add that even if I had been sitting right next to the ladder, I still would have jumped for the simple reason that he would not have told me to do THAT without a very good reason. Period.
 
 

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We are more easily led part by part to an understanding of the whole.
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RE: Would you REALLY do that...? - 11/4/2006 3:55:59 AM   
Kalira


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quote:

The question that Sinergy and I pondered was this, if I told him in a tone that denoted that a life and death decision was imminent, would he have jumped? His answer was yes, because trust is not about his dominance and my submission, it is about believing that someone has your back no matter what, good judgment, and the desire to protect you no matter what.

When Master and I were talking about this, he had made mention that this kind of trust is similiar to that of what you learn in the military. You are taught to 'blindly' obey the orders given to you simply because there may come a time when the order is one of life or death.

_____________________________

Facilius Per Partes In Cognitionem Totius Adducimur
We are more easily led part by part to an understanding of the whole.
Seneca

Damnant Quod Non Intellegunt

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RE: Would you REALLY do that...? - 11/4/2006 4:18:17 AM   
SirLordTrainer


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I agree with your former Masters decision if in fact there was no other safer, faster way off the roof in light of the bees and your allergy to them.  Both his and your actions were justified. Good thread.

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RE: Would you REALLY do that...? - 11/4/2006 5:10:26 AM   
spankmepink11


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania


I do not think this is a Ds thing though to be honest with you. If I was with a partner that I was involved with in a vanilla relationship I would jump if I trusted them. One can deeply trust in any human relationship, and yes, trust enough to jump off the roof because they are told to. It is a testament to the depth of the trust you had that you jumped.

The question that Sinergy and I pondered was this, if I told him in a tone that denoted that a life and death decision was imminent, would he have jumped? His answer was yes, because trust is not about his dominance and my submission, it is about believing that someone has your back no matter what, good judgment, and the desire to protect you no matter what.



I think that when we state unequivocably that this is a "sub" trait and this is a "dom" trait that we lose some of what is means to be human, and that is the ability to do anything we can to save and protect the life of a loved one, and the power of love to spur us to make certain choices that transcend Ds. I think protecting the life of my Daddy and his willingness to follow an order from me like "jump" that is designed to literally save his life is an example of something that transcends power exchange. That is just my opinion.



I agree with this 100%, also i think theres a big difference in blindly trusting and obeying in extreme or threatening circumstances, verses  someone telling another to do something just to feed the ego...or to test them to see if they'll obey. 
To be honest, i think i might have found another way off the roof.....but...one can really never say until they find themselves in such a situation.

Thanks for sharing.

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RE: Would you REALLY do that...? - 11/4/2006 5:45:01 AM   
Morrigel


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Interesting thread.  I have been in many situations that demanded instant obedience either from me or to me, and rarely had trouble with hesitations.  I never really thought about it as an issue with a D/S context; for me those situations, being non-sexual, were simply about survival and the ego of neither party entered into it.

Nonetheless, the story of the rooftop is a beautiful one in many ways.  Given that a single bee sting, in someone deeply allergic, can cause anaphylactic shock and death within minutes--I would say that the man in question was right to be very afraid.

Just out of curiosity--did the master also jump?  If not, how many beestings did he acquire?  Each one of those could have been a fatality for an allergic person.

--M

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RE: Would you REALLY do that...? - 11/4/2006 5:50:15 AM   
Kalira


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quote:

Just out of curiosity--did the master also jump?  If not, how many beestings did he acquire?  Each one of those could have been a fatality for an allergic person.

Actually, he went in the opposite direction that I had jumped; . As to the number of stings, I can't remember the exact number but it was over 50.

And yes, I am one of the unfortunate ones that a single sting, even with the administration of immediate attention, is deadly. An injection gives me about an extra 10 minutes before my breathing completly shuts down.

_____________________________

Facilius Per Partes In Cognitionem Totius Adducimur
We are more easily led part by part to an understanding of the whole.
Seneca

Damnant Quod Non Intellegunt

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RE: Would you REALLY do that...? - 11/4/2006 5:53:05 AM   
Morrigel


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Well, I am glad that he did the right thing and that you survived.  It must be wonderful to be in the hands of someone whose love and judgment you can trust so completely.  That is a beautiful thing.

--M

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RE: Would you REALLY do that...? - 11/4/2006 6:11:48 AM   
Noah


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Morrigel

Nonetheless, the story of the rooftop is a beautiful one in many ways. 



Almost as heart-rending as the one about the sub who unquestioningly puts the poodle in the microwave.

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RE: Would you REALLY do that...? - 11/4/2006 6:15:42 AM   
mnottertail


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Did this draconian measure stop the incessant stinging of the sub?

Curiously,
Ron


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RE: Would you REALLY do that...? - 11/4/2006 6:50:14 AM   
Morrigel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Noah
Almost as heart-rending as the one about the sub who unquestioningly puts the poodle in the microwave.


It's sad to be a true sadist, isn't it.  To know that you can never truly be trusted or trustworthy at the deepest level--that someone must always hold back, or be destroyed by your entropic appetite.

--M 

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RE: Would you REALLY do that...? - 11/4/2006 6:56:32 AM   
Kalira


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Morrigel

quote:

ORIGINAL: Noah
Almost as heart-rending as the one about the sub who unquestioningly puts the poodle in the microwave.


It's sad to be a true sadist, isn't it.  To know that you can never truly be trusted or trustworthy at the deepest level--that someone must always hold back, or be destroyed by your entropic appetite.

--M 

LOL no worries Morrigel. Noah is predictable in his replies to posts. I would have expected no less coming from him.

_____________________________

Facilius Per Partes In Cognitionem Totius Adducimur
We are more easily led part by part to an understanding of the whole.
Seneca

Damnant Quod Non Intellegunt

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RE: Would you REALLY do that...? - 11/4/2006 7:10:11 AM   
thetammyjo


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I'm going to answer this from the other side of the equation: what would I do as an owner?

First, would I harm myself to protect Fox (or any slave of mine)?

Well, I have. I fell down our stairs a few years ago because I heard he was upset downstairs and forgot to put my glasses on so I fell. I learned the hard way (and the long & painful way) that that was a stupid thing to do. Now I'll call him up to me or take my time to get to him. If I'm harmed, I offer him very little other than another duty to take care of me -- which I hate!

Second, would I ask him to do something harmful in the moment if I thought it would outweight the later benefit?

No. My promise to him is that I would never do something to harm or damage him. I didn't qualify that by adding that lesser harm would be ok to avoid greater harm. That is my personal moral code and frankly he'd probably be behind my ordering a small harm to avoid a greater one.

Now maybe this is a trick of my mind for my morals but I have ordered hurt to avoid a harm. I ordered him into therapy to start dealing with his past -- that hurts, it hurts a lot for months and years but it can undo or control the earlier harm and damage that was done to him. I've ordered him to end a few relationships with people who I discovered were not trustworthy -- that hurt emotionally but later, when he discovered their character himself, he thanked me for it.

Finally, would I order him to do something that I knew was better for him if ordering him stripped him of learning something that could help him later on?

This plays out mostly with his family of origin. See, they had him long before me and yes they did a damn amount of damage and harm to him. I voice my opinion, I get him into therapy, but in the end I decided they are lessons he must learn on his own so he can make his own positive decisions. I don't want a robot, I want a slave who is a complete person, and that means watching him hurt and sometimes do emotional damage so he slowly learns. I could die tomorrow, he's got to be able to make these really hard decisions on his own.


Wait, wait, wait, you say, what does this have to do with telling him to jump if there are bees or a train is coming?

See, I'm more a doer than a commander in those situations. I'd scream "Bees!" and push him off the roof or shove him off the tracks. The time between me ordering and him processing that order can be lessened if I just do something like grabbing him by the arm.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to Kalira)
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RE: Would you REALLY do that...? - 11/4/2006 7:40:09 AM   
Kalira


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quote:

See, I'm more a doer than a commander in those situations. I'd scream "Bees!" and push him off the roof or shove him off the tracks. The time between me ordering and him processing that order can be lessened if I just do something like grabbing him by the arm.

LOL, I love your posts Ma'am. I do understand this though. However, if you were far enough away from him, would you still take the time to make your way TO him, or would you try and 'save time' by just saying the words?

_____________________________

Facilius Per Partes In Cognitionem Totius Adducimur
We are more easily led part by part to an understanding of the whole.
Seneca

Damnant Quod Non Intellegunt

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RE: Would you REALLY do that...? - 11/4/2006 7:53:00 AM   
CreativeDominant


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania


Sinergy and I talked about this thread for a long while tonight. Sometimes CM brings up a fresh issue for us to ponder and consider. As time goes by and our relationship deepens I believe I would jump too. I know this man's body language when we are together, how protective he is of me. I cannot imagine him telling me to do something like that without a good reason. Also, I tend to think that our instinct takes over, and split second decisions come along that require action, that trust that develops becomes almost instinctual. I do not believe that he would tell me to do something like that without a life and death reason hanging in the balance.

I do not think this is a Ds thing though to be honest with you. If I was with a partner that I was involved with in a vanilla relationship I would jump if I trusted them. One can deeply trust in any human relationship, and yes, trust enough to jump off the roof because they are told to. It is a testament to the depth of the trust you had that you jumped.

The question that Sinergy and I pondered was this, if I told him in a tone that denoted that a life and death decision was imminent, would he have jumped? His answer was yes, because trust is not about his dominance and my submission, it is about believing that someone has your back no matter what, good judgment, and the desire to protect you no matter what.

[puts on flame retardant suit]

I think that when we state unequivocably that this is a "sub" trait and this is a "dom" trait that we lose some of what is means to be human, and that is the ability to do anything we can to save and protect the life of a loved one, and the power of love to spur us to make certain choices that transcend Ds. I think protecting the life of my Daddy and his willingness to follow an order from me like "jump" that is designed to literally save his life is an example of something that transcends power exchange. That is just my opinion.

Edited to add, wonderful story and thanks for sharing Kalira


I agree...trust is something so very necessary for a power exchange and yet, if the relationship is to go as deep as it can, it has to transcend the power exchange.

My folks were pretty good to me.  Like most parents, they had their faults.  But I learned early on that neither my mother or father would tell me to "jump" without a damn good reason.  And, as has been noted, the tone of their voice often told my brother and me just how important and good that reason was.  When I was in the military, I was taught to follow orders.  Not so much blindly...they were trying reallllllllllly hard to avoid another My-Lai incident...but with that same sort of instinct you develop with those you trust.  They wouldn't be telling you to do this if not for your own good or for the greater good.

When I became a parent, I taught my kids that if they heard me say something in a certain tone, they were to "just do it".  And yeah, it did save my daughter once when she was little and forgot the rules about going into the street without looking.  She did so to retrieve her cat and I saw a car bearing down and she just kind of froze.  I yelled, in that voice, "Come here NOW!".  That shook her back to self-preservation and obedience and she did it.




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RE: Would you REALLY do that...? - 11/4/2006 8:13:24 AM   
Aileen68


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I would have had a bunch of bee stings on my ass.
My first initial reaction would have been...WTF?  And then...Why?
Of course, after that all I would have heard would have been Buzz Buzz Buzz.
Sucks to be me. 

I can honestly and seriously say that I would not have jumped without question.

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RE: Would you REALLY do that...? - 11/4/2006 8:47:53 AM   
Argentopal


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HI,  I have to chime in here. 
Over the last near decade of our Ds life, my trust and belief in Argent, my Daddy, has grown into something I would never have thought was possible.  That trust might be called "blind" by some.  But giving him my total trust was a decision I made in the past, a decision that was made once and never has to be made again.  I trust him to love me, to care for and about me, and to want what is best for me (even when I might not agree).  I have several physical limits due to age and other health issues, but if he told me to do something - yes I would, to the best of my ability.  I would because I trust him and I do not have to decide in each instance whether or not I trust him 'right then'.  I trust that if he tells me to do something, he has a good reason and that he has weighed the alternatives and consiquences.  It is like that game of falling backward and trusting someone to catch you.  I do not look back to see if he is really right there, because I know he is.  Keep in mind I am not some  young or starry-eyed newbie, this trust grew over many, many years and was not an overnight decision, it was something that I realized one day was there.
And yes, it has been tested, in a very real and frightening way - and I am alive, we are still together, and stronger for the experience.

Opal

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RE: Would you REALLY do that...? - 11/4/2006 9:45:56 AM   
thetammyjo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kalira

quote:

See, I'm more a doer than a commander in those situations. I'd scream "Bees!" and push him off the roof or shove him off the tracks. The time between me ordering and him processing that order can be lessened if I just do something like grabbing him by the arm.

LOL, I love your posts Ma'am. I do understand this though. However, if you were far enough away from him, would you still take the time to make your way TO him, or would you try and 'save time' by just saying the words?


If I was too far from him, I'd say something like "Get off the roof NOW" and he wouldn't question. I would feel horrible if I said jump or something and he ended up harming or damaging himself. First, I'd feel very responsible and would be but second, a slave with a damaged body can't really serve me as well as I'd like.

In the case of a slave with a bee allergy, my mother had a bee allergy see, a very bad one, so I know a bit about bees. I think there would be time to climb down more safely but I'm sure the master was scared and did the best he could at that moment. (yeah, we tops get scared too) Plus I bet he was more than happy to take care of his slave after she was injured. Thus I can respect that decision even if I don't think I would make the same one.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to Kalira)
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