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Guys still being Subs after they ejaculate - 11/4/2006 7:26:27 AM   
AlexAussieSub


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How common is this? Is it much of a plus or are you not fussed about it? If so how much? Do you even feel that these are the only real Subs? Does the method of ejaculation matter? What other traits in Subs tend to correlate with this (both play preferences and general personality)?

The more examples we can find of this, the stronger the case is that our lifestyle is real and it's not just "women pandering to male fantasies". It would also be a huge hole in Freud's theory.
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RE: Guys still being Subs after they ejaculate - 11/4/2006 8:21:30 AM   
Morrigel


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Freud had a theory about men being less submissive after ejaculation?

Weird.

Personally, I've found it depends on the man.  Some men get very gentle and needy when they're hard.  Some men get increasingly dominant and aggressive as sexual excitement increases, and can relax and be much more accomodating after they've come.

Almost all the men I've worked with, however, do not have any kind of "instant shut-down" or frame shift after ejaculation--they stay highly charged and often work up to another erection/ejaculation fairly quickly if I continue playing.  I tend to think that this sort of shutting-off-the-light-switch response happens a bit more often when there isn't much connection between the two people playing, even in the way of friendship or camaraderie.

--M


(in reply to AlexAussieSub)
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RE: Guys still being Subs after they ejaculate - 11/4/2006 8:46:13 AM   
Lashra


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Yes he is a submissive and he is submissive before, during and after he cums. He desires to please me, isn't that what most subs want regardless of gender? I don't pander to anyone. I am a Domme, I do what I want to do and IF his fantasy interests me, then we can talk about it.

I think these relationships have to have some gratitification for both parties otherwise why would people be in them? I've heard the "Oh I just want to serve her/him" believe me if the sub isnt getting something out of  it they aren't going to do it. Same goes for the Dom/me

There are very real male subs out there and yes there are a lot of fakes too, just like femsubs.

~Lashra


_____________________________

“We can never judge the lives of others, because each person knows only their own pain and renunciation. It's one thing to feel that you are on the right path, but it's another to think that yours is the only path.”






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RE: Guys still being Subs after they ejaculate - 11/4/2006 8:49:44 AM   
LadyOunce


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Swallowing down bile at the need to justify my lifestyle, especially against the likes of Freud, I admit that I've never had an issue with a lack of a submissive attitutde after ejaculation. Perhaps that is because I do practice chastity and denial so being allowed that release is another sign of their submission.
 
I think if I ever dealt with a sub that turned off the switch, as it were, the moment he got off, I would definitely be done with them that moment.

_____________________________

Above all, be true to yourself, and if you cannot put your heart in it, take yourself out of it. -Jackson

Few are those who see with their own eyes and feel with their own hearts. -Einstein

Do not consider painful what is good for you. -Medea

(in reply to AlexAussieSub)
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RE: Guys still being Subs after they ejaculate - 11/4/2006 9:01:57 AM   
Emperor1956


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Ladies, I think that the OP, in his cryptic, inarticulate way, is asking about "submissive" men who are basically just using the cloak of submission to get sex.  They cum, and poof, as submissives, they go.  I don't think he was attacking anyone's lifestyle or choices, but then again, I might be wrong.  I'm in a forgiving mood today.  It won't last (smile).

I'm not very familiar with male subs, but this is surely not an unknown phenomenon among women, either, although in My experience they claim to be "submissive" to receive male attention, protection, affection and sometimes even the benefits of a long-term relationship.  Sometimes they are dismissed as "do me subs" and surely THAT is not limited to girls only.

What I think is a more interesting question is the submissive who after any sort of release -- culmination of a D/s scene, orgasm, etc. -- has remorse about what he/she has done or is doing, and expresses that in ways that may seem a rejection of submission.  I've had submissives who after a scene are very upset over "what I've done...what I am...how can I like this? ... etc."   How do you handle the submissive who rejects his/her submission in those times?

E.

_____________________________

"When you wake up, Pooh," said Piglet, "what's the first thing you say?"
"What's for breakfast? What do you say, Piglet?"
"I say, I wonder what's going to happen exciting today?"
Pooh nodded thoughtfully.
"It's the same thing," he said.

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RE: Guys still being Subs after they ejaculate - 11/4/2006 9:25:22 AM   
bandit25


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I'm sure you know that is a very common reaction.  It's easy to say you accept yourself, your nature, but have doubts in the aftermath of a particularly intense scene.  And one of the most common results of those doubts is rejection...at least that seems to be how the doubts are manifested.  I read an interesting article by Sensuous Sadie once.  She's an author who writes a column on submission, etc.  Anyway, she's been submissive for quite some time and she said that even she has doubts.  She said she's found that the best thing to do at those times is just be nice to yourself.  Take a bubble bath, read, have a manicure, etc.  Just treat yourself until you are feeling better about yourself.  Those negative thoughts will go away.

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RE: Guys still being Subs after they ejaculate - 11/4/2006 9:35:43 AM   
thetammyjo


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I think someone who is submissive because it is a drive in them to serve or to submit will be that way regardless of if he has sex, has an orgasm or doesn't.

It hasn't affected Fox's serve at all to me though he personally would rather give me an orgasm than think about sex for himself when he's with me. When he does orgasm or get turned on with me it actually makes him more cuddly and more attentive to me and generally eager to help me come again and again.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to AlexAussieSub)
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RE: Guys still being Subs after they ejaculate - 11/4/2006 11:34:47 AM   
Lordandmaster


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That sounds right.

(I'm in the second category.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Morrigel

Personally, I've found it depends on the man.  Some men get very gentle and needy when they're hard.  Some men get increasingly dominant and aggressive as sexual excitement increases, and can relax and be much more accomodating after they've come.

(in reply to Morrigel)
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RE: Guys still being Subs after they ejaculate - 11/4/2006 4:30:21 PM   
Hercuckslave


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after i am allowed to cum, i am still Mistress' slave.  i am still submissive to her will and obedient to her word.  do i "feel" different after i cum?  i would have to answer yes to that to be perfectly honest.  i guess it is a bit of sub drop.  my desires are quelled and what might have seemed hot as hell a moment ago, no is not so much.   but "feeling" submissive doesnt matter.  its not the point.  i AM her slave.  period.  i obey, i serve, whether i "feel" like it or not.  this may sound unslavelike, so let me give an example.   maybe after a looooooong hard day at work, all i want to do is come home, take a shower, and lie down.  what if when i walk through the door she has other plans for me?  chores? errands?  massage?  i heard someone say something at some time like "you're not in the mood?  well you better GET in the mood"

M's m

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RE: Guys still being Subs after they ejaculate - 11/4/2006 4:42:25 PM   
DiurnalVampire


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I have had men that were completely unruly after they had cum.  Orgasms tended to be their turning point. Angel is not like that, he is always submissive, before during and after.  Its very much a person by person thing.  I do know that across the board, they do tend to get very sleepy afterwards. Ive taken to playing with Angel only at bedtime or if we have a chance to nap afterwards *laugh*

DV

_____________________________

I will be your Dominate if you will be my submit - Fox

Snarko Ergo Sum
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*Owner of Fox - collared 10/13/07*
VampiresLair

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RE: Guys still being Subs after they ejaculate - 11/4/2006 4:47:41 PM   
MagiksSlave


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LOL I dont think freud ever considered us!!!

LOL I wonder what he would have had to say if he lived now, now that there are clubs and people are out about this kind of thing!!!

Magik's slave

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If you’re going through hell keep on moving
don't slow down
if you’re scared dont show it
you might get out
before the devil even knows your there.


-Rodney Atkins-



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RE: Guys still being Subs after they ejaculate - 11/4/2006 5:32:35 PM   
LTRsubNW


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlexAussieSub

How common is this? Is it much of a plus or are you not fussed about it? If so how much? Do you even feel that these are the only real Subs? Does the method of ejaculation matter? What other traits in Subs tend to correlate with this (both play preferences and general personality)?



(Was there a question?)

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RE: Guys still being Subs after they ejaculate - 11/4/2006 7:53:39 PM   
AlexAussieSub


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Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Freud's explanation for what he termed "male masochism" (and a lot of other things) that it was all about the penis. This would imply that everything finishes with ejaculation.

(in reply to Morrigel)
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RE: Guys still being Subs after they ejaculate - 11/4/2006 8:26:00 PM   
Morrigel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlexAussieSub

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Freud's explanation for what he termed "male masochism" (and a lot of other things) that it was all about the penis. This would imply that everything finishes with ejaculation.


You could very well be right.  Freud seems to have taken a rather unimaginative view on a number of sexual issues which were brought up by his patients.  Some of his more celebrated theories seem to have been based in his inability to believe, for example, that some children really were sexually molested by their parents or other family members--that what he was revealing in analysis were not fantasies, but realities.

Brilliant man, but when he was wrong about something...boy howdy could he be wrong.

Anyhoo, maybe for some men it IS all over when they come.  One of my favorite men always told me there was a moment of blessed relief after orgasm.  For a few precious seconds, his powerful sexual urge was satiated and he had some clarity and peace--a brief return to the person he was before puberty, back when he hadn't yet discovered girls and everything was very clear.

Of course, that lasted for about three seconds.  Then he'd open his eyes and see me naked and it was all ruined, of course...but maybe for some men it lasts longer.  Perhaps they aren't sexually submissive because they aren't feeling sexual at all... 

--M

< Message edited by Morrigel -- 11/4/2006 8:27:07 PM >

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RE: Guys still being Subs after they ejaculate - 11/4/2006 8:52:01 PM   
MsKatHouston


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I haven't had too much of a problem with that because I screen pretty well.  I can usually tell if someone is submissive because it is their nature and they want to serve me or if it's a passing kink they like just in the bedroom.  It's different for different guys.  Either way is fine, too as long as they are up front with their true needs and desires and have a compatible partner.

However, I can definitely say, based on personal experience, that submission carries over after ejaculation for many men who identify as submissive. 

_____________________________

-Kat

~If you can't be a good example, you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning~

(in reply to Morrigel)
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RE: Guys still being Subs after they ejaculate - 11/5/2006 11:16:56 AM   
pixelslave


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Morrigel
Personally, I've found it depends on the man.  Some men get very gentle and needy when they're hard.  Some men get increasingly dominant and aggressive as sexual excitement increases, and can relax and be much more accomodating after they've come.

Almost all the men I've worked with, however, do not have any kind of "instant shut-down" or frame shift after ejaculation--they stay highly charged and often work up to another erection/ejaculation fairly quickly if I continue playing.  I tend to think that this sort of shutting-off-the-light-switch response happens a bit more often when there isn't much connection between the two people playing, even in the way of friendship or camaraderie.


As a man who is a sub, I think there are several factors at work that need to be considered and Morrigel had touched on at least a couple of them.  First is that men naturally have a refractory period following an ejaculation. the length of which varies from man to man.  It is something that Masters & Johnson have documented and can't be totally avoided regardless of what anyone does.  That said, having a connection with a woman who wants to continue the play to keep some degree of arousal within me are two ways I know of that minimize the refractory period in me that help prevent me from totally succuming to it, and to maintain my interest in more than snuggling that definitely has the kind of positive effect for me that is sufficient to keep my energy levels up as well.  There are particular activities that truly bring out the submissive side in me following having reached an orgasm that definitely keeps me there and will also quickly bring me back to a state of full arousal as well.  Those require a definite connection in addition to an exclusive relationship where the use of condoms is not needed.  


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lady Ounce
Swallowing down bile at the need to justify my lifestyle, especially against the likes of Freud, I admit that I've never had an issue with a lack of a submissive attitutde after ejaculation. Perhaps that is because I do practice chastity and denial so being allowed that release is another sign of their submission.


Lady Ounce had hit another thing I know of that keeps me VERY attentive.  Being put into a chastity device without a release is what I speak of, although the OP was asking specifically about male subs following ejaculation. 

I've never been put into a device following a release for longer term chastity, so can't exactly say how I'd react, but I suspect I'd react in a similar manner in the sense that I particularly enjoy being teased and also especially enjoy taking our time with a lot of  extended foreplay.  After having been denied for an extended period of time while in a device, I suspect I'd want to continue and would not quite be ready to stop when locked-up following an orgasm, thus being anxious to continue to submit to the desires of a Mistress that I served.  I also suspect that being locked-up following an orgasm would be somewhat similar mentally for me to being locked-up without an orgasm; particularly in the sense of the control I feel that a Mistress has exerted over my sexuality with her having ownership of my manhood.  For me, that makes me feel very submissive to her.

I also think perhaps at the root of some of the issues that the OP has posted to, is in regard to men focusing on the end goal of reaching an orgasm rather than enjoying the experience of simply being with their Mistress.  To me it seems a loss not to enjoy each and every moment instead of keeping the focus on what will happen when you cum as you think about how good it will feel for the few seconds during which you reach your peak.  To me, this means a person misses out on 99% of the enjoyment of the experience, which I think is a shame and a loss for both involved.  It means your mind is not in the present and instead is thinking down the road.  I'd rather be focusing on the feel of the sensations of the moment and how her body/mind as well as those of mine are responding to what is happening NOW.  Should the time come when a release is imminent, then I will enjoy it and experience it for all that it is worth.  Otherwise, I wish to stay in the moment and just take pleasure in the sharing that occurs. 

I don't feel a man has to have an orgasm to have a wonderful time with a woman, just as many women feel the same about themselves.  For me, the goal is not the orgasm, but instead is the sharing of the experience.  If orgasms occur, then enjoy them for what they are, but there's no need to measure the experience by the intensity or the number of orgasms that happen on any particular occasion.  After all, its not a competition!  There are just too many other things involved that affect the ability of either one to reach a plateau to let the lack of reaching it diminish what was enjoyed.

I'll readily admit, that there's no doubt that there are times that indeed I crave to have the release, but I don't want to miss all that happens in between.  It feels like I've shown disrespect and indeed ignored the attentions of the woman that I'm with, if my mind is not present with her all the time, enjoying what we're sharing and the gifts she has to offer and those I have to share with her as well.  And, as is the case with some, I know I need to wait for her permission for me to release, so why not just enjoy?

- pixel

_____________________________

Chivalry isn't dead! It's for those who have it in their hearts & are willing to be taught. It's a way of life, a code of honor; this one's armor still needs some polishing!

(in reply to Morrigel)
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RE: Guys still being Subs after they ejaculate - 11/5/2006 4:57:01 PM   
thetammyjo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pixelslave

As a man who is a sub, I think there are several factors at work that need to be considered and Morrigel had touched on at least a couple of them. First is that men naturally have a refractory period following an ejaculation. the length of which varies from man to man. It is something that Masters & Johnson have documented and can't be totally avoided regardless of what anyone does. That said, having a connection with a woman who wants to continue the play to keep some degree of arousal within me are two ways I know of that minimize the refractory period in me that help prevent me from totally succuming to it, and to maintain my interest in more than snuggling that definitely has the kind of positive effect for me that is sufficient to keep my energy levels up as well. There are particular activities that truly bring out the submissive side in me following having reached an orgasm that definitely keeps me there and will also quickly bring me back to a state of full arousal as well. Those require a definite connection in addition to an exclusive relationship where the use of condoms is not needed.

- pixel


The big difference is that when someone serves or submits he is unlikely to be erect that entire time.

So while there may be a biology downtime for the next erection, that does not equal a downtown for anything else. It is a matter of what you both want and what you both expect.

I think a lot of women get disappointed with men either because they do not voice/expect something greater or they simply expect the "negative" of the situation. Thus if someone is unhappy that her partner stops being submissive post orgasm might want to look at what she is expecting and what she is communicating.

The men in my life (vanilla and kinky both) have either lived up to my high expectations or they don't continue with me. I have to be very clear about my high expectations however -- men are not mind readers and it is unfair to think they are.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to pixelslave)
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RE: Guys still being Subs after they ejaculate - 11/5/2006 6:45:30 PM   
AlexAussieSub


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(fast reply),

The question is not whether or not a refractory period exists (in case anyone doesn't know what this is it's a period following ejaculation during which erection is impossible). What I'm interested in knowing is how much variation is there in how Subs feel during this period.

For women sex seems to be a lot more of a zen like experience. Go out somewhere, slowly get into the mood over a couple of hours, go back home, have sex, slowly come back to earth as "real world" stimuli are encountered. The personality of the guy is a make or break factor. For vanilla men it seems to be a lot more like solving a maths problem. See some T&A, work out what needs to be done to get it, have sex, blow, job done, straight back to earth. The only things that matter are looks and what needs to be done to get it, analagous to the benifits of solving a maths problem vs. the difficulty in solving it.

Looking at how the whole concept of a Domme is about personality (I don't think many Subs would want a model with a whip who stood there saying "what do I do now?") and the whole strap-on instead of sex thing, it seems natural to assume that submission would be more "zen like" than "maths problem like". Examples of guys wanting to submit during the refractory period would prove this. TammyJo and a few others seem to have touched on this.

Comments please,

(in reply to thetammyjo)
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RE: Guys still being Subs after they ejaculate - 11/5/2006 8:32:03 PM   
pixelslave


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo
The big difference is that when someone serves or submits he is unlikely to be erect that entire time.

So while there may be a biology downtime for the next erection, that does not equal a downtown for anything else. It is a matter of what you both want and what you both expect.

I think a lot of women get disappointed with men either because they do not voice/expect something greater or they simply expect the "negative" of the situation. Thus if someone is unhappy that her partner stops being submissive post orgasm might want to look at what she is expecting and what she is communicating.

The men in my life (vanilla and kinky both) have either lived up to my high expectations or they don't continue with me. I have to be very clear about my high expectations however -- men are not mind readers and it is unfair to think they are.


TammyJo,
I think you may have in part misunderstood me.  The refractory period is much more than about a man's ability to regain an erection.  In my experience, it is also about an emotional "let down" as best as I can describe it at the moment.  I'm not exactly certain how to properly explain it.  I have in fact maintained erections following an ejaculation, but still experienced a refractory period that is akin to feeling "tired and somewhat listless", as in the typical complaint that many women have of men who simply roll over and want to go to sleep.  While the latter rarely happens to me following an ejaculation, unless I've already worn out myself serving a Mistress in numerous other ways to the point where I am indeed tired.  The chemical reactions that occur are more than just about regaining an erection.  They are also about the brain's ability to stay alert and focused (similar to an opiate or narcotic).  So being with a woman who can still take the lead and direct me to respond to her needs, provides the motivation to fight to retain my focus and avoid the natural inclination to give in to the chemical reaction that goes on inside my brain.  For me, the key is hearing her voice or feel her taking action that directs, compels, or otherwise motivates me to begin to move and satisfy her desires.  For me, it is not at all an indication of a lack of desire or a loss of my desire to be a good submissive to a Mistress.  Instead, it is more like fighting a sedative that is kicking-in as it is trying to shut down my brain so my body can recuperate from the intensity of having just then experienced a sexual release. 

I do agree that setting an expectation ahead of time of what it is you desire from a sub following his ejaculation greatly helps him to prepare his mind for what he must do to move forward and continue to serve you in the manner you desire.  Talking with him as he approaches his peak, also helps in my experiences to build his desire for what you expect of him next.  I'd have no problem with either approach and it would greatly help me to focus, particularly with your verbal encouragement or a simple reminder of what it is that you expect.  So in that regard, I do not think we're in any kind of disagreement.  It's merely a matter of finding out what works best between each sub and Mistress.  I greatly enjoy continuing to pleasure a Mistress after I've been satisfied, its just getting through those first few moments when I'd sometimes like to submit to the natural desires to roll over and give-in to the chemicals that are released inside that tell me its time to rest and recover.  Once those feelings pass or ideally when I have the assistance of a partner that's able to motivate and distract, its easy for me to move on to much more and in fact is what I truly desire and very much prefer to see happen!

- pixel

_____________________________

Chivalry isn't dead! It's for those who have it in their hearts & are willing to be taught. It's a way of life, a code of honor; this one's armor still needs some polishing!

(in reply to thetammyjo)
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RE: Guys still being Subs after they ejaculate - 11/6/2006 4:46:46 AM   
Morrigel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pixelslave
Instead, it is more like fighting a sedative that is kicking-in as it is trying to shut down my brain so my body can recuperate from the intensity of having just then experienced a sexual release. 


It isn't just men who experience this effect, either.  It doesn't always happen, but I was often mocked by my ex-lover for my tendency to roll over, curl up and fall deeply asleep after a good hard orgasm.  "No snuggling, no talking, no afterplay?  Women are such pigs!"

--M

(in reply to pixelslave)
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