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Not sure how to classify myself - 2/3/2005 1:03:56 AM   
madamrazzle


Posts: 10
Joined: 10/3/2004
Status: offline 		I'm not sure what it is that I am so I was hoping someone may have a little advice. I am definately a bottom, the thought of being in control is like asking a straight person how they would feel about being gay so that much I know. I also am definately a masochist and enjoy very intense pain of many kinds. So with those things established, the closest thing I have found through my own research is the term SAM or SAMmy (smart ass masochists) which from what I understand is not a term to be proud of. Its not like being a cute little brat, its something that is looked down upon in the D/s/BDSM life. I have no intentions of disrespecting my Dom at any time, but I dont feel OBEDIENT enough to call myself a sub. I prefer to be forced to do most things with some exceptions. I am not a "hassle" and I do have my very submissive "want to please" moments, but for me, I am not in any way into roleplay and one way that makes things seem more real is by getting punished for real and not for fun. I also like to be taught "lessons" however sometimes I tend to act nieve about certain things just to get taught a "lesson" for instance repeatedly making noise when told to be absolutely silent, or sometimes rolling my eyes when given a direct order. I feel I am more playful than anything else, but can definately differentiate between when is a good tme to play and not, unfortunately, having a masochistic nature, I deliberately choose the "bad times to be playful"...to be playful. Alot of Doms I know would not put up with this at all, they want someone who is "ready molded" so to speak and these are the ones I tend to stay away from anyways. I will admit that things would be easier if someone would help me learn how to ask for pain instead of feeling like it has to be provoked. So to wrap this up, should I just be looking for someone who is extremely sadistic, so that I know there is no chance of not getting my needs for pain met? Am I nothing more than a "selfish sub"? Am I a SAM, or just a sub with a sense of humor? I'm not sure what the norm is, but I dont want to be deceiving or wasting anyones time calling myself a sub in search of a Dom, if there is a better title for me that I should be using. Again, I am not trying to deliberately disrespect anyone, just lack any good training I guess. Still trying to figure myself out a little, thanks for any replies.
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Not sure how to classify myself - 2/3/2005 1:07:40 AM   
madamrazzle


Posts: 10
Joined: 10/3/2004
Status: offline 		oh by the way, and because I have answered this question so many times and probably should post this before I get asked on this thread, I claim to be a bottom yet have the name "madam" in my name....its a name I have used for years on the net, madam razz was the good with from she-ra (he mans sister), it was a cartoon I liked as a young girl, lol, should have thought it through a little more before making my collarme profile, but incase anyone was gonna get off topic on my post, there it is. <~`That is the wink smiley right ( I cant find my glasses)

(in reply to madamrazzle)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: Not sure how to classify myself - 2/3/2005 1:34:49 AM   
BeachMystress


Posts: 2156
Joined: 4/3/2004
From: Naples Island- Long Beach CA - Southern California
Status: offline
The only one who can really answer this is you. Don't worry too much about labels. Figure out what you need and what you're able to offer and be honest about it. So what if you can't say I'm a masochistic toe sucker, if you can say I like pain and sucking toes. (not saying you do.. examples only.) As you go along, you'll figure out what label you wish to apply to yourself. Do not accept one from someone else that you're not comfortable with (unless you are that person's submissive.) So much of this lifestyle is subjective. To me it sounds like you are showing SAMmie behaviour because you're either not ending up with Dominants who are sadistic enough or you're not communicating how much you enjoy pain. You act up to get your needs met. If you were getting as much pain as you needed, would you still feel compelled to act up? Is this a sense of humor thing? A not being willing to be totally controlled thing? Or just flat out pain seeking behaviour? A real SAMmie acts up even when getting plenty of pain.

I personally consider myself a touch sadistic, maternal Domme. (This pretty much means I hurt people so I can make them better.. make them cry so I can soothe away the tears.) In the past, any time I've had a new sub, I had a talk with them. I explained the way I like to play. I told them that they would be getting enough pain that they really didn't want to act up to get more. I also told them that if they did act up and I had to punish them, it would be real. Neither of us would enjoy it. It would be painful, harsh and awful. I never had to punish a sub more than once.

There are Dom/me out there who run the spectrum from Tops who like to give a few orders to extreme control Dom/me who like to cause a lot of pain. Be very honest about how much that pain means to you when you're talking to a prospective Dom/me. If you have a Dom/me who seems perfect other than not being harsh enough, explain pain as intense sensation. It is a less emotionally charged word.

Good Luck

< Message edited by BeachMystress -- 2/3/2005 1:36:55 AM >

_____________________________

Beach Mystress
*Do not threaten the weak. Intimidate the strong. ~ Stevenson*
http://beachmystress.jigsy.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/beachmystress/

(in reply to madamrazzle)
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RE: Not sure how to classify myself - 2/3/2005 1:51:57 AM   
madamrazzle


Posts: 10
Joined: 10/3/2004
Status: offline 		WEll since I have never come across any Dom that has given me what I need, I am not sure how to answer the question "if I got the pain I needed would I still act up". I probably would not, I would still have my sense of humor side, but no, I guess I would have no reason to provoke something I am already getting anyways. Labels arent a huge thing to me either, I am only concerned with this because it may make my search a bit easier if I can weed out what I am NOT looking for by presenting myself with the proper label. Also, i definately don't communicate how much I like pain. I dont like to ask for it, yet I am aware that asking for it would be the simpler thing to do for both parties involved. I am not unlike others though, I'm sure, but instead of waiting for it, I try to help it along a little. I wouldnt have to try to meet my own needs if someone was doing it the right way for me. Guess I'll keep going with the trial and error thing. What I really want is a psychic, lol, who knows what I want without me having to tell them, know any, lol. Thanks for the reply, I appreciate it.

(in reply to BeachMystress)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Not sure how to classify myself - 2/3/2005 5:07:35 AM   
MizSuz


Posts: 1881
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Ok, this is what I read in your original post:

"I'm a manipulative masochist"
"I want the person who is topping me to give me everything I want without my having to be responsible for clearly stating it"
"I want what I want and am not sure how to label that."

What I haven't heard is what you have to give or what you would like to offer.

Have you examined what you bring to a dominant or top? Do you care? Can you respect someone you can manipulate? If not, how will you deal with someone you can't manipulate?

I hear you saying you are looking for a life-support system for a whip. If that is the case, have you considered seeing a professional dominant? Have you tried just seeking a top, rather than a dominant? Or perhaps being clear that, for now, all you want is a top and not a dominant?

I believe that until you can clearly state what you want you will most often get something you don't want. Have you had discussions with tops that say what you have said in your original post? Have you made it clear to them that you are not so much interested in submitting as you are interested in getting your sensation needs met and being "forced" to do various things? It's possible that you prefer to bottom in an S&M sense and 'role play' with D/s. That's not a good or bad thing. In fact I think it's a very good place for someone who is starting out as it gives you the opportunity to experience different things without needing to cultivate relationships that may be based in a dynamic you aren't sure you want.

Based on the things you have said in your post, if I had to label it, I would say you are a 'bottom.' But, that's only based on what you have posted and may be off the mark.

I agree that it's nobody else's province to label you. You have to do that, if anyone is to do it. I don't know that labels are necessary, but I do believe that understanding yourself better is. I realize you are trying to figure that out, and commend you for it.

I know a lot of people who are bottoms but not submissive; even though, given the right dynamic in the right moment, they will 'submit' to specific situations. Often that submission is simply an extension of their bottoming as it pushes different kinds of boundaries. For these people, the submission ends when the play is over.

If you are a 'bottom' and not a 'submissive' then prepare yourself to be hammered by every pseudo-god online who will take your lack of willingness to submit as a personal affront. Also be prepared to limit your potential partners, as many of us really want submission as well as a whipping post.

SherriA here on CM is a 'bottom' who fits the above referenced profile. She considers herself an S&M switch although most often her preference is to bottom. Her D/s play is rare and usually short in duration, but she is quite the S&M player. I call her a "Do-Me Domme" (although this is not how she labels herself).

Have you considered that you may be a bottom instead of a submissive?

_____________________________

“The more you love, the more you can love—and the more intensely you love. Nor is there any limit on how many you can love. If a person had time enough, he could love all of that majority who are decent and just.”
- Robert Heinlein

(in reply to madamrazzle)
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RE: Not sure how to classify myself - 2/3/2005 5:33:07 AM   
panthergoddess


Posts: 93
Joined: 1/11/2005
From: Bessemer City, NC USA
Status: offline 		(admittedly having not read the replies yet)

I would say that in your communications with your potential top that you articulate just what you did there.

There are some Tops that like bottoms who challenge them. There are some the obviously don't. The trick is to find the one(s) suited to you. You seem to be a "punishment seeker" rather than a "reward seeker" and there is nothing wrong with that.

I think if you communicate it effectively and are accepted and your Top dominates you as you need to be, you will end up learning to submit a lot more easily as your Top will have gained your respect in a manner of speaking.

Some terms that apply
-bottom
-masochist
-smart ass
-punishment seeker
-challenging
-non-servant


_____________________________

"No good deed goes unpunished."

(in reply to MizSuz)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: Not sure how to classify myself - 2/3/2005 5:38:09 AM   
ProtagonistLily


Posts: 1222
Joined: 12/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Have you considered that you may be a bottom instead of a submissive?


I agree with everything MizSuz laid out for you. I think it's most important to be true to who and what you are, rather than trying to fit some prescribed mold in order to feel more secure.

However, from my experience real time, there is an amount of pressure, not from the Domianants, but from the other submissives/slaves to try to quanitfy their positions relative to those who are bottoms. Some submissives try to put themselves on a pedestal as 'better' or more worthy of being played with because they are willing to 'submit'. Personally, in casual play, I have seen the bottoms at times get more action than the submissives because a bottom knows that when the scene ends, the scene ends. Sometimes, with submissives or slaves, they are hoping to make a deeper connection to the Dominant they are playing with, and that can complicate things. Sometimes, Dominants just want to go out, get their kink on, and not have to worry about anything afterwards.

So I guess what I'm saying is, if you are a bottom, be a bottom, and don't let the other non-Dominant folks try to pressure you or judge you for being true to who and what you are.

And by all means, have fun!
Lily

_____________________________

"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind"
~Dr. Seuss~

(in reply to MizSuz)
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RE: Not sure how to classify myself - 2/3/2005 6:00:54 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

So I guess what I'm saying is, if you are a bottom, be a bottom, and don't let the other non-Dominant folks try to pressure you or judge you for being true to who and what you are.


Coming from one of us non-Dominant folks I could not agree more. I am not even going to attempt to try to tell you what you are as I believe the most important thing is for YOU to decide who and what you are.

I do not see bottoms as being beneath me or less worthy. It seems that there are many in this lifestyle who want to put everyone into neat little labeled boxes when the fact is that we all have to be what feels right for us. If you come to the decision that you are a bottom, then hey, great for you. Have fun with it and don't let others try to tell you that you should try to strive for something more.

There may come a day when you meet a Dominant who you click with so completely that you may wish to give more, and if that happens, that is fine too. But if it doesn't.....gosh, just be happy in what you do and have a good time. After all, this is supposed to be fun.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to ProtagonistLily)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Not sure how to classify myself - 2/3/2005 6:06:32 AM   
ProtagonistLily


Posts: 1222
Joined: 12/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

So I guess what I'm saying is, if you are a bottom, be a bottom, and don't let the other non-Dominant folks try to pressure you or judge you for being true to who and what you are


One thing I forgot to mention. BDSM is ultimately about growth, at least in my opinion. I started as a 'submissive' but bottomed more than anything. I had someone I was collared to, but I still considered myself a bottom relative to the other Dominants I played with. There's another thread going on that is making an attempt to codify the terms, and I just think it's silly. In BDSM, I can be a lot of things all at the same time actually.

You may find a Dominant that you bottom to, that you mesh with, that you connect with, that sets afire a part of you deep inside that draws that submissive impulse out. That's perfectly alright if it happens. By being open, by allowing yourself the comfort level of just being who you are, sans a box labled anything, will probably offer you the most rewarding experiences.

I started as a submissive...now, I'm 32 flavors and then some ~wink~

Lily

_____________________________

"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind"
~Dr. Seuss~

(in reply to ProtagonistLily)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Not sure how to classify myself - 2/3/2005 6:12:03 AM   
panthergoddess


Posts: 93
Joined: 1/11/2005
From: Bessemer City, NC USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ProtagonistLily
I started as a submissive...now, I'm 32 flavors and then some ~wink~


Why am I suddenly in the mood for icecream.

LOL. Thanks Lily


_____________________________

"No good deed goes unpunished."

(in reply to ProtagonistLily)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Not sure how to classify myself - 2/3/2005 7:29:04 AM   
domtimothy46176


Posts: 670
Joined: 12/25/2004
From: Dayton, Ohio area
Status: offline 		As a dominant, I appreciate those who bring self-awareness into discussions of their needs and desires. I understand you feel you may have more questions than answers but understanding that enables you to communicate it from the beginning. I'm certain there are many quality dominants who would be willing to help you explore who and what you are, or at least what does and doesn't work for you. Perhaps what would be most helpful for you would be to find a dominant with a healthy sadistic streak, someone you can trust to explore with, someone who will enjoy the exploration without trying to squeeze you into a preconceived role. Trial and error might be a lot of fun if it was approached honestly with the right partner.
Timothy

(in reply to madamrazzle)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Not sure how to classify myself - 2/3/2005 8:54:05 AM   
madamrazzle


Posts: 10
Joined: 10/3/2004
Status: offline 		Thank you A/all for the very informational posts! I'm not sure what else to say at this point until I do some thinking on this. I have thought of myself as a submissive for so long, not that the label matters, just the memories involved with the title, and now I am thinking that I may in fact be a bottom rather than a submissive, which is ok, but I would rather find someone who I feel a desire to submit to, without all of the games. I think that I feel like my submission is a great gift that is not just layed at anyones feet like a gift. I have to see that they are worthy of it (uh oh, dont start calling me a Top) or more so rather, that I am not setling for less than I think I deserve.
What do I have to offer? Well I guess for now the only thing I have to offer is my potential, and the right Dom for me will be the one that recognizes that. Thanks again for the posts.

(in reply to domtimothy46176)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Not sure how to classify myself - 2/3/2005 9:09:58 AM   
ProtagonistLily


Posts: 1222
Joined: 12/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

I think that I feel like my submission is a great gift that is not just layed at anyones feet like a gift. I have to see that they are worthy of it (uh oh, dont start calling me a Top) or more so rather, that I am not setling for less than I think I deserve.


I don't see this as "Topish" as you suggest in your post. I see it as sane. Think about it from my perspective. If I'm a Domme looking for someone to have a more than casual relationship with, then I'm looking for someone who understands that they are special in some way....or 'worthy' enough to be considered. I also don't want just anyone to offer me their submissive. I would hope that someone who truely wanted to submit, rather than bottom (oy vey, I can see the potential headache coming if M.Taggart reads this ~grin~) I want to feel like it's because they are interested in ME specifically, and not just because I'm available and looking.

So, really, this works from the other side of the whip too.

Lily

_____________________________

"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind"
~Dr. Seuss~

(in reply to madamrazzle)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Not sure how to classify myself - 2/3/2005 12:25:27 PM   
Valiant


Posts: 5
Joined: 1/25/2005
Status: offline 		My old headmaster used to say that if you can't right it down, you don;t undertstand it. My addition is if you don;t understand who and what you are why should you expect anyone else to?

Sounds harsh maybe and I do know that two people can explore together. I agree that we should not be bound by labels, but this world uses labels....the key is whatever label you use for yourself be able to explain it to another so that the two of you understand whatever interpretation you put on it for example the term slave has umpteen meanings in my experience.

To this end I have always suggested to the new subs I have worked with that they write down what it is they need and what they think they can give. They should also add what they do not want and what they see as their limits. This does not have to be a work of art or finely crafted words. Instead it will be a living document that you can discuss with others, amend as you learn and grow.

FWIW I advocate a Dom producing a similar document and see no reason why a submissive (or whatever you call yourself) should not ask to see the Dom's version as an aid to communication......but then that may just be my way!

Good luck.

(in reply to ProtagonistLily)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Not sure how to classify myself - 2/3/2005 12:43:33 PM   
FangsNfeet


Posts: 3758
Joined: 12/3/2004
Status: offline 		I once had a thought and questioned myself "What would a relationship be if my Submissive always did everything perfect and served me without ever doing anything to diserve punishment?" and I replied back "That would get boring for where is the fun if I didn't do any type of training or using punishment for conditioning?"

I viewd your profile but you didn't say much about yourself. Put a little Razzel in your profile and it may help in getting replies from Doms who look for more than a pretty face.

By what you posted here I see you are a submissive and not a slave.
If you really want a Definition about you, I'd go with "Stubborn Subby." Or how about a Sassy Kinky Girl who is looking for her limits?
Have you had a master or session done to you before? Attending a function or experimenting with someone may help a few things in figuring yourself out. Your TRUST is the key to find out more about yourself.

You talk about not being able to find a Dom who would put up with you. Could it be that you aren't ready to put up with a Dom?









Attachment (1)

_____________________________

I'm Godzilla and you're Japan

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RE: Not sure how to classify myself - 2/3/2005 1:29:09 PM   
madamrazzle


Posts: 10
Joined: 10/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:


Sounds harsh maybe and I do know that two people can explore together. I agree that we should not be bound by labels, but this world uses labels....the key is whatever label you use for yourself be able to explain it to another so that the two of you understand whatever interpretation you put on it (Valiant)

......Precisely why I am trying to figure this out now. I realise the importance of this. Its not so much a LABEL per se that I am looking for, it is the input of others who may be more experienced in the life than me. Input os always nice, otherwise message boards wouldnt exist. (Thanks for posting)

(in reply to Valiant)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Not sure how to classify myself - 2/4/2005 2:15:26 PM   
Voltare


Posts: 841
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: Santiago, Chile
Status: offline 		Great post, Suz, right on.

madamrazzle, I'll toss my two bits in, and say it sounds like you are clearly submissive but probably extremely strong willed, and as Suz points out, you seem to be fixiated on what will be provided for you, rather then what you bring to the table. The male submissive version is very common - they have a specific kink or fetish, and wish to be 'forced' to a) wear a dress b) scrub floors c) behave as a human (insert noun) d) be a puppy dog, etc etc. Their belief is that they are providing a 'service' to the Dominatrix, but in reality they aren't really providing anything. This is, of course, why so many men are willing to pay to provide these services. (Not trying to stir a Professional war here, just making an observation - I don't personally believe there is anything wrong with the above, am simply illustrating a point.)

If this fits you, then odds are bottom would be the best 'term' if you wish to have a term. You can also state that you have specific fetishes, and outline them for whomever you are speaking with. I know of more then a few Dommes who like to bottom on occasion, and even one who is a Masochist (waves to Jules) but this doesn't make her any less of a Dominant in personality.

In the end, it's all a matter of what are you really looking for. If you want a Dominant to love you, care for you, guide you, shape you, mold you into what he wants, and you would find pleasure in serving him at his feet (or in his bed, or standing on your head, wherever he places you) that would be a submissive mentality (in terms of labels.) If, on the other hand, you simply want a man to administer appropriate punishments for transgressions, to give you rules, etc, then it sounds more like you want a personal trainer, and can find one pretty easily at a gym.

The only person who can answer these questions, is you. I wish you the best in finding the answers!

Stephan

_____________________________

http://www.vv3b.com/

"There is always some madness in love, but there is always some reason in madness." - F. Nietzsche

(in reply to madamrazzle)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Not sure how to classify myself - 2/4/2005 4:09:32 PM   
BeachMystress


Posts: 2156
Joined: 4/3/2004
From: Naples Island- Long Beach CA - Southern California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: madamrazzle
Also, i definately don't communicate how much I like pain. I dont like to ask for it, yet I am aware that asking for it would be the simpler thing to do for both parties involved.



I'm obviously not your Dominant, yet I have a task for you. I'd like you to sit down and write "how much pain I'd like to experience" blurb that you can hand to future dominants. You're not writing it for any one person, so there is no need to be embarrassed or censor yourself. Hell, you may not ever hand it to someone, so be totally brutally honest. You will want to put specific things in like "I'd like to try someone actually bringing me to tears via pain" (it is very hard to bring someone to tears via pain.. you get tears easily when you add the emotional to the mix) or "I have the fantasy of being given pain till I safeword." Write down one of your pain fantasies in detail. Get it all out there. You can tweak and revise this as things change and you have more experience. The good part is, that handing something you wrote six months ago (as long as it is still up to date and valid) to a Dominant isn't the same as telling them what you like. You get closer to your illusion of mind reading while still communicating. Oh yes.. that reminds me. Part of what you'd put in this essay, is that you like the pain just given to you, not discussed. Good Luck!

_____________________________

Beach Mystress
*Do not threaten the weak. Intimidate the strong. ~ Stevenson*
http://beachmystress.jigsy.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/beachmystress/

(in reply to madamrazzle)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Not sure how to classify myself - 2/5/2005 6:20:27 AM   
MizSuz


Posts: 1881
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

I know of more then a few Dommes who like to bottom on occasion, and even one who is a Masochist (waves to Jules) but this doesn't make her any less of a Dominant in personality.



Voltare,

It's great to see you posting! Welcome back.

You know at least two dominae (I saw the plural of domina spelled this way somewhere on this board and liked it...so I am going to adopt it - kudos to the individual who posted it originally) who are masochists.

I too am a do-me domme (when I'm in the mood for it). I feel pretty confident I could even drum up a few witnesses who would affirm that. (the truth is I posted a pic of myself post play, but the poor mods had to pull it - too graphic). I could share it with you if you like.

Anyway - You know at least two.



_____________________________

“The more you love, the more you can love—and the more intensely you love. Nor is there any limit on how many you can love. If a person had time enough, he could love all of that majority who are decent and just.”
- Robert Heinlein

(in reply to Voltare)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Not sure how to classify myself - 2/7/2005 12:18:50 PM   
Voltare


Posts: 841
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: Santiago, Chile
Status: offline 		Would love to see it Suz! You know my addy.

I'll even go on a limb, and say somewhere inside, I kinda like a bit of masochism. I enjoyed getting my tattooes on my back, and I absolutely love a woman's nails scraping the flesh. It pretty much ends there, but I certainly don't feel less a man for liking it.

Perhaps that's a topic for another day - how does S&M really fit into all of this?

Stephan

_____________________________

http://www.vv3b.com/

"There is always some madness in love, but there is always some reason in madness." - F. Nietzsche

(in reply to MizSuz)
Profile   Post #: 20
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