The use of safewords

The use of safewords (Full Version)

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Kalira -> The use of safewords (11/6/2006 5:56:55 AM)
Before I start, I want to state that this is in no way a bash against the use of safe-words during a scene. I understand the need for others to use them within their relationships. I wanted to focus on something that Mercnbeth stated in another post. His words were: quote: "I've never heard anyone, even the most adamant of the safe-word side, give an example of a preemptive safe-word. Safe-words occur after the fact. Making them all the more irrelevant to safety and more likely relying on them, give you a better opportunity to be hurt." I don't use, and have never used safe words in my relationships; this does not mean however that I do not encourage others to use them if they feel they are necessary to maintaining safety. However, what Mercnbeth said here actually makes alot of sense. Safe words occur AFTER the fact. They do not occur before, or during; but after. Using that as a reference, I am now wondering how effective are safe words in reality? You are already hurt, so in fact, the safe word did nothing to stop that. And yes, I know that many are going to jump in here and state that *IT STOPS THE PLAY RIGHT THEN AND THERE.* But if you think about it, the damage is already done. So what good did using a safe word actually have? Just curious as to what others may think about this.

Donnalee -> RE: The use of safewords (11/6/2006 6:05:17 AM)
Well, I guess there is benefit in getting the information out as soon as possible, even though it's after the fact. Look at a situation where one might be dripping wax on a partner....would it not be good to say something as soon as possible...and before the next drip? I can see the value there. I think it would serve a good value in the context of a series. Yes, something went too far, but surely it doesn't need to go further.

crouchingtigress -> RE: The use of safe words (11/6/2006 6:05:54 AM)
pretty damn effective to establish a no-fly zone with a new sub...to help a new submissive feel safe....and to give the new dom parameters he can be comfortable in... in a long standing realionship....not so much....usually you know each other pretty well and can just talk if something has gone awry also safe words dont always mean everything stops and never gets re-started it only means there is a temporary blip in most cases to adjust something or someone and when there is no danger of harm the scene often starts back up again.

Rover -> RE: The use of safewords (11/6/2006 6:22:58 AM)
To begin, a safeword is just a mystical name for communication that takes place during the course of a scene. It may be a "special" word that you have agreed upon, or it may simply be plainly spoken communication. Either way, it conveys the same information (something is wrong). It's not a "cloak of protection" against anything, but communication, used properly, can help prevent injuries. Jay Wiseman conducted an extensive study of scene related injuries. The only predictive factor he could identify between scening and injury was the presence of pain. Not "good" pain, but "bad" pain (and I have no doubt that you know the difference). As the bad pain level increased (based upon self reporting), the correlation for injury increased as well. Point is that unless the damage is done in a single, continuous and abrupt motion, tendons don't rupture, joints don't dislocate, etc. without the presence of a great deal of increasing pain warning of the impending event. And while we are all used to the existence of pain in a scene, we must also be aware of pain that shouldn't be there... of pain that in unintended or exceeds our expectations for what it is that we're doing. That pain is a warning sign, and to ignore those signs is...well... dangerous and foolish. If you only communicate (ie: use a safeword) after damage has been done, then you're right, it only has the value of stopping a scene before further damage has been done (not something to dismiss so lightly). But if you communicate (ie: use a safeword) as your body clearly tells you that something is wrong, you'll probably avoid a problem in the first place (there are no guarantees of complete safety). For those who refuse to admit that they play without safewords, I ask the following simple questions: 1. Do you not allow your bottom to communicate with you during a scene? 2. Would you not react to your bottom if they told you that their shoulder or knee had become locked and something was going to give? 3. Are you so perfect at reading your bottom's body language that you couldn't benefit from plainly spoken warnings that something was wrong? 4. Or do you simply not care what is happening to your bottom? John

punchmyballs -> RE: The use of safe words (11/6/2006 6:26:36 AM)
I like the use of safewords. When someone is punching and squeezing my balls, which is what I love, I like having a safeword available to me for 2 reasons. First, I know I can be released if there is real pain. Second, the torturer knows he can just keep going, no matter how much I complain it hurts, beg him to stop, tell him it's too much, etc.; he doesn't have to let up to ask "is this REALLY bothering you or is it just part of the scene?" It allows him and me to stay in the role of me being trapped in a really painful sitution, so it is much more fun. BTW, I most like a double safe word - e.g., "yellow" for that's at my limit, don't go more, but it's ok there, and "red" for immediate stop. I like to try real hard NOT to use a safe word - the idea is, I know it's there if I need it. I have even worked out with someone before that if I do use the safe word it will be respected, but I will have to be punished for it later. Anyone in the DC area?

mnottertail -> RE: The use of safe words (11/6/2006 6:35:50 AM)
punchmyballs? LOL, there ain't gonna be a need for a safeword, because that is so not even come up in my life......................... Ron

Lashra -> RE: The use of safe words (11/6/2006 6:53:16 AM)
My sub has been instructed to use "yellow" as an indicator that things are getting a bit to intense for him to handle. I am the type of Domme who slowly works up to an intense peak rather then just going for it full force. Yes this makes for long sessions but I'd rather be careful and safe then end up hurting him in a bad way. The only problem that I have found with safewords is once some subs are in subspace most can't remember their own name, let alone say a safeword. This is where the Domme has to use her skills and knowledge to look for signs of distress in the sub. I constantly check my sub while I am playing with him to make sure he is alright. Once you have played with someone awhile you learn to read their body language, the sound of their voice, their breathing etc. You can tell when they are high and flying, enjoying the scene or when a twinge of bad pain can cause them to crash. ~Lashra

crouchingtigress -> RE: The use of safe words (11/6/2006 7:01:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LashraThe only problem that I have found with safewords is once some subs are in subspace most can't remember their own name, let alone say a safeword. lol soooooooooo true lashra![:D]

mnottertail -> RE: The use of safe words (11/6/2006 7:04:36 AM)
Ja, they never covered that in school......... The correct pronounciation of ANY color is--------- Plllllllwwwwwwwwwwwuuuuuuuuuuuuuppppppppppppppttttttttthhhhhhhh, with drool like mikey in MIB..................... Ron

mistoferin -> RE: The use of safewords (11/6/2006 7:10:33 AM)
I am a fierce opponent of the safeword concept if we are talking about the use of prescripted "magical" words that are touted to keep one safe. I absolutely will not scene with anyone who insists that I use one. I believe that words like green, yellow, red or Rumpelstiltskin are ridiculous and very poor replacements for open, honest and forthright communication. When something goes wrong in a scene...the thing that is wrong is the first thing that comes to mind. If I am going to vomit, I don't think...uh oh, "red"....I think vomit. If my stomach turns and I am hit with a bout of diarrhea, I don't think "Rumpelstiltskin"....I think diarrhea. If my hip pops out of joint, I don't think "calliope"....I think "my fucking hip is dislocated". In any of those, or in any other of a myriad of situations, I have no desire to go searching my memory banks for the prechosen magic stop the action word. Communication of what is actually taking place works just fine. I am also one of those subs who DOES become entirely uncommunicative after a certain point. Having a magic word at that point....or even trying to rely upon normal conversation....would be impossible. The only thing that will assure me any higher degree of safety at that point is the good judgement that I made prior to the scene in my choice of partner. It is the reason that I do not rush lightly into play with people I don't know well and it is the reason that I don't advocate casual play to others. Magic words are not a replacement for a Dominant that is in tune and paying attention. My biggest beef with the safeword concept is that far too often I hear of Dominants who have these discussions with newer submissives and they talk of these safewords as if they are some kind of certified, stamped and approved ticket to safe scenes. I often see newbies who throw caution to the wind and common sense out the window because...."It'll all be fine...he gave me a safeword". Well, that's just fucking horsepuckey. I have also seen, especially in the case of those newer, Dominants who don't know when to end a scene without hearing the utterance of those magical words. In my own experience...I once had a Dominant abruptly end a scene because I apparently said the word "purple" He assumed that in my delirium I confused my colors. In actuality, purple is the color I most often experience in subspace. My utterance of it was indicative that I was in a really good place....not in trouble. On another occasion I was involved in a scene that went really bad. I tried communicating openly....didn't work. I tried communicating a bit more forcefully....didn't work. Yes, I even resorted to saying and then screaming the most common "magic" word "red"......guess what....that didn't work either. Later at the hospital while I was being stitched up....I came to terms with the fact that I was the responsible party for the failure of the scene. A bit more common sense and forethought on my part would have kept me from participating.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: The use of safewords (11/6/2006 7:15:59 AM)
I think they have their usage in extreme role playing situations in which a normal shrieking "Wait stop somethings wrong" could be misinterpreted. Otherwise, a normal shrieking "Wait stop somethings wrong" is perfectly adequate. Most people turn a safeword into a symbol- of trust, of faith, of romance, or strength. Which basically renders it useless for its ACTUAL purpose- signalling a problem. http://www.collarchat.com/m_600704/mpage_1/key_safeword/tm.htm#600756 forgetting the safeword http://www.collarchat.com/m_563513/mpage_2/key_safeword/tm.htm#563814 Safeword usage over time http://www.collarchat.com/m_355604/mpage_1/key_safeword/tm.htm#355604 Safewords are NOT for novices! http://www.collarchat.com/m_232414/mpage_1/key_safeword/tm.htm#232414 safewords? http://www.collarchat.com/m_228130/mpage_1/key_safeword/tm.htm#228130 safeword http://www.collarchat.com/m_137937/mpage_1/key_safeword/tm.htm#137937 Forcing your sub to safeword? http://www.collarchat.com/m_131432/mpage_1/key_safeword/tm.htm#131432 Safe words http://www.collarchat.com/m_93603/mpage_1/key_safeword/tm.htm#93603 Overuse of a safeword? http://www.collarchat.com/m_69981/mpage_1/key_safeword/tm.htm#69981 safewords not allowed? http://www.collarchat.com/m_14335/mpage_1/key_safeword/tm.htm#14335 should a slave in training be allowed safewords?

LordODiscipline -> RE: The use of safewords (11/6/2006 7:22:37 AM)
*After the fact of any "first happening" - but, before the second, third and twentieth...* *What is the point of the quote?* *That is like saying that a motor vehicle violation should not be given out after someone drives unsafely and creates an incident because it is "after the fact".* *Yes, it is; but, it is also a means of controlling the action so that it is not going to occur again (at least not immediately afterward).* *I am not much on safe words either - but, the logic of that statement completely escapes me* ~J

Rover -> RE: The use of safewords (11/6/2006 7:29:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mistoferin I am also one of those subs who DOES become entirely uncommunicative after a certain point. Having a magic word at that point....or even trying to rely upon normal conversation....would be impossible. The only thing that will assure me any higher degree of safety at that point is the good judgement that I made prior to the scene in my choice of partner. It is the reason that I do not rush lightly into play with people I don't know well and it is the reason that I don't advocate casual play to others. Magic words are not a replacement for a Dominant that is in tune and paying attention. Good points throughout the entirety of your post, erin. For some a "mystical" word works best, for many (such as yourself) plainly spoken sentences work best. Either way, it's communication. I did want to make comment on the above passage, however. I know many bottoms who also become uncommunicative when entering subspace, and some that remain in a semi-altered state for hours or days afterward. Two things I wanted to note: 1. Generally speaking (of course there are exceptions), "bad" pain is a quick trip out of subspace and back into clear focus. 2. The uncommunicative state of subspace places greater value upon the trust you have in your partner not to go beyond your physical limitations (ie: too much of a good thing), or to do things you do not want done to you (ie: exceed your limits). That's particularly true when scening with a stranger or acquaintance (as opposed to a regular partner or significant other). Just a few things that your post brought to mind. John

gypsygrl -> RE: The use of safewords (11/6/2006 7:31:41 AM)
I use safewords, but, to me it doesn't have anything to do with reducing the risks of physical damage or at least I've never had the need to use them that way. Basically, the way I experience pain is in terms of a process of integration. If an intense sensation is occurring, if it comes in a way that I can integrate it, I can with relative ease convert it to either pleasure or a neutral sensation. Alot of times, I don't even really feel it even though I know its happening. If I can't integrate, its starts to hurt, and I'm approaching a limit. I can feel the beginnnings of a panic happening, as my body reacts. At this point I say yellow. If the pain slows down or is reduced in intensity, I can continue with the scene until I get close to another point where I have to slow it down again. After this goes on for a while, I start to get tired, and usually have to red if the scene hasn't stopped already. To me, the important thing is that safe words are very effective in preventing panic. I use them for emotional reasons, and not physical. Its not the feeling of pain that I'm responding to, but the feeling of being out of control. I know from the experience of having been in a relationship with a someone who didn't understand that need of mine that its very easy for me to build up emotional resistances to even physically mundane activities that aren't very risky if I can't integrate the sensations. I have nothing against the thought of not using safewords, if I were with the right partner. They've just always seemed very functional and have served a purpose. One nice thing about using them is it doesn't require a lot of complex thinking to say 'yellow' which is important to me because I can get really really dopey.

PhilLogan -> RE: The use of safewords (11/6/2006 7:38:26 AM)
Safewords remove power from the D to the sub. It is McBondage. All scenes should be handled with care. If you are topping and you do not know when your subject is not ina good place, then you need to introspectively discern what you are doing wrong.

Celeste43 -> RE: The use of safewords (11/6/2006 7:46:14 AM)
I think that's a narrow way of viewing them. If I start to feel nauseous, and use a safe word right then, it's before I get to the point of vomiting. The same with feeling as though I may pass out. I can use it, explain what's wrong and be loose with my head between my knees in time to prevent going unconscious. In bondage, I tell him when the hands begin to get numb, I don't wait until there's no sensation left. I say something in time to prevent a worse outcome.

juliaoceania -> RE: The use of safewords (11/6/2006 7:53:56 AM)
quote: To begin, a safeword is just a mystical name for communication that takes place during the course of a scene. It may be a "special" word that you have agreed upon, or it may simply be plainly spoken communication. Either way, it conveys the same information (something is wrong). It's not a "cloak of protection" against anything, but communication, used properly, can help prevent injuries. I think that this is true. My Daddy and I are planning some hot interrogation scenes, we have joked about them in the past.. but if he is interrogating me it is really hard to tell him any sort of word to "stop" so having a different word can be useful. We are not into rape scenarios per se, but they would be helpful with that too. quote: If you only communicate (ie: use a safeword) after damage has been done, then you're right, it only has the value of stopping a scene before further damage has been done (not something to dismiss so lightly). But if you communicate (ie: use a safeword) as your body clearly tells you that something is wrong, you'll probably avoid a problem in the first place (there are no guarantees of complete safety). I think I understand what you are saying One of the last times we played he had me tied up and my head covered with a pillow case partially. Since he could not see my face, and I was tied up, I could not signal to him that I was having trouble breathing and my head felt hot. I told him with, words that this was so. I was not in imminent danger, but I was uncomfortable and if I continued to take in less oxygen than I needed that could lead to trouble... voila, preemptive communication!

PhilLogan -> RE: The use of safewords (11/6/2006 7:56:47 AM)
I would think that any woman under my hand would say, "Harry, I am going to throw up!" I think at that point I would stop the scene. Parameters for any heavy scene should be discussed, debated, and cemented waaaay before the first click of the cuffs. I should not scoff at the criteria that is used by others. However, in my opinion, any true scene that utilizes a safeword lacks the unmitigated bliss that a real power exchange should embody.

mistoferin -> RE: The use of safewords (11/6/2006 7:59:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: gypsygrl If I can't integrate, its starts to hurt, and I'm approaching a limit. I can feel the beginnnings of a panic happening, as my body reacts. At this point I say yellow. If the pain slows down or is reduced in intensity, I can continue with the scene until I get close to another point where I have to slow it down again. After this goes on for a while, I start to get tired, and usually have to red if the scene hasn't stopped already. To me, the important thing is that safe words are very effective in preventing panic. I use them for emotional reasons, and not physical. Its not the feeling of pain that I'm responding to, but the feeling of being out of control. I know from the experience of having been in a relationship with a someone who didn't understand that need of mine that its very easy for me to build up emotional resistances to even physically mundane activities that aren't very risky if I can't integrate the sensations. gypsygrl, I'm not trying to single you out so please forgive me for using your post as an example. I am doing so because I think it is a perfect example of something that Merc referred to in another posting yesterday that was not well understood. I believe this is what he was referring to...if I am wrong he can correct me. Merc spoke of safewords being used as "ongoing performance appraisal". I believe that when safewords are used in the manner you describe that is what is going on. The submissive is in a sense controlling the scene....ie, "green"="I'm good, keep going", "yellow"="back off" or "slow down", etc. The submissive is controlling the actions with the words. The submissive is not surrendering her mind completely because she is keeping part of it focused upon controlling the actions of the scene. She is giving an "ongoing performance appraisal". In the part of your post that I highlighted lies exactly the point that I believe Merc was trying to make. You are responding to the loss of control. I believe that Merc was attempting to point out that a submissive who uses safewords to "direct" the flow of the scene is not surrendering full control....which, as a Dominant whose submissive is his life partner versus a casual encounter....the full surrender of control is what he desires. I would also interject that while I understand your perspective....for many the loss of control is the goal or purpose of the scene....it's what makes it work.

daddysprop247 -> RE: The use of safewords (11/6/2006 8:12:10 AM)
like PhilLogan, i've always believed that safewords allow the bottom or submissive to ultimately be the one in control, often allowing little to no actual domination or submission to take place. it is one reason why i never used them when i had the opportunity to do so, as a free submissive. there is exactly one incidence when i have used a safeword, and that was when i was serving a particular Dominant after being owned for just a few months. this particular Dom insisted that safewords be used (the classic red, yellow stuff), for some reason that was never made clear. He beat me with various implements for around an hour or so before i felt that i should use one of these magical safewords. not because the pain was too much for me (it was, but most pain is too much for me as my threshold is low), but because i sincerely feared that he would potentially cause more damage than my Master would be pleased with. He was beating my spine with a heavy cane rod of some sort, directly on the bone, and as i'm fairly thin i didn't exactly have any padding to protect me. i didn't want to end up paralyzed or at best with some major back injury, and then have my Master be devastated and angry. so i quietly sad, "red". He continued. i said it again, slightly louder. He acknowledged that he heard me, and continued. He didn't stop until my Master walked in, at which point he began beating me far less severely and in far less risky areas of the body. so, the whole safeword thing was useless ime. since then the rule has been, i am never to use a safeword, safe signal, or give ANY visible indication of distress when serving any Man. because basically, as my Master explained it to me, nothing positive or productive can result in their use. if i use a safeword and a Dominant heeds it, then i am controlling the situation. if a Dominant's goal is to truly hurt me, then using a safeword or giving some sign of distress will only encourage him. not to mention the fact that even having the freedom to use a safeword or signal or communicate distress in some way places entirely too much focus on self, when the focus should be on serving only. and obviously with my Master, the control given by a safeword would be out of the question. so for us they simply serve no purpose.

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