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Alcoholic help - 2/4/2005 11:10:44 AM   
devotionsweet


Posts: 14
Joined: 12/16/2004
Status: offline 		Interesting enough, i've been kind of going back and forth in my mind about participating in the forums, i read them often, but don't participate, although i never thought i would start of with this....
Now i'm getting off topic.....
i have a person dear to me in my life who is an alcoholic, they are currently in rehab. They would like me very much to go visit tommrow and do the whole group discussion thing, none of their family wants to go (although the more i think about it i understand why). i phoned and spoke with their consoler, and was informed this is going to be a discussion dealing with alcoholism as a disease, i explained to her how i felt, and was advised to inform myself one way or another before i arrive. To be honest, i don't buy into the whole disease concept, i understand the addiction, the pain, etc. but i can't comprehend, asides from the insurance aspects of it all, it as a disease.....
i've been researching online, and googling/yahooing, posting in AlAnon forums... no one seems to be able to A) inform me in a way in which i can understand, and B) asides from saying yes HUH it's a disease, i can't seem to find answers....
So i'm wondering if anyone here could nudge me in the right direction, perhaps explain to me what i'm not getting....
In any event, i would be truely greatful for any info anyone could supply.
Hopelessly off topic for these boards.... but i have my fingers crossed...
Thanks :)
~jen
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Alcoholic help - 2/4/2005 11:26:58 AM   
ProtagonistLily


Posts: 1222
Joined: 12/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

i have a person dear to me in my life who is an alcoholic, they are currently in rehab. They would like me very much to go visit tommrow and do the whole group discussion thing, none of their family wants to go (although the more i think about it i understand why). i phoned and spoke with their consoler, and was informed this is going to be a discussion dealing with alcoholism as a disease, i explained to her how i felt, and was advised to inform myself one way or another before i arrive. To be honest, i don't buy into the whole disease concept, i understand the addiction, the pain, etc. but i can't comprehend, asides from the insurance aspects of it all, it as a disease.....
i've been researching online, and googling/yahooing, posting in AlAnon forums... no one seems to be able to A) inform me in a way in which i can understand, and B) asides from saying yes HUH it's a disease, i can't seem to find answers....
So i'm wondering if anyone here could nudge me in the right direction, perhaps explain to me what i'm not getting....
In any event, i would be truely greatful for any info anyone could supply.
Hopelessly off topic for these boards.... but i have my fingers crossed...
Thanks :)
~jen


First, my heart goes out to you. Alcoholism is a very difficult thing to have in your life, especially with someone dear to you. It's the disease that tells everyone it's not a disease. I would encourage you to go to the facility and participate in the discussion. Information is really key here; you aren't the only person who ever had trouble with the disease concept where Alchoholim is concerned. I'd venture to guess that you'll meet other SO's of alcoholics at this meeting that feel the same way you do. And just on that basis, you may find comfort in the fact that you aren't alone.

Alcoholism is a lonely disease, and it's a family disease. The person who's dealing with the problem isn't the only one here that's been touched by it. Often, if someone's alcoholism has progressed to the point that they have sought long term hospitalization or have been mandated by other means, it's probably unlikely that the person's alcoholism hasn't effected at least a certain amount of those in the family and friends circle.

From what I remember when I was involved with someone close to me going through Alcoholism recovery, Alcoholism is classified as a disease because of the chemical reaction that happens in the brain chemistry of the alcoholic. Those who become addicted to alchohol process alcohol in much the same way heroine is processed. There are people who don't process alcohol this way, and aren't likely to become alcohol dependant. Basically for me, what the disease concept really came down to was the fact that I couldn't blame 'my alcoholic' for being an alcoholic. But by the same token, that doesn't mean you have to stand around and let them drink themselves to death either.

What was key for me, participating in my loved one's alcoholism recovery was, I mattered. Through a long process, I learned to identify my own co-dependancy and gained strategies to be codependancy free.


*hugs* to you jen for having the ability to come to this place for support. I would encourage you to allow the facility your loved one is in to give you some help as well. Alanon groups are world-wide and specifically deal with those who have been effected by the alcoholic. I would encorage you to attend a live, local Alanon meeting.

All the best to you,

Lily

_____________________________

"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind"
~Dr. Seuss~

(in reply to devotionsweet)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: Alcoholic help - 2/4/2005 12:32:34 PM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline 		Jen,
First of all let me start by saying that I applaud you for reaching out and asking for information. Your friend should know how lucky he is to have you for a friend.

I was a Substance Abuse/Domestic Violence counselor for 7 years. I was also in an 11 year relationship with a recovering alcoholic....on and off the wagon.

I can tell you that Lily is correct in her description of the disease concept of alcoholism. In the body of an alcoholic, there is a very complex series of chemical reactions that occur that cannot occur within the body of someone who does not carry the specific gene that makes this possible. Therefore, there are a group of people that are born "Alcoholic Ready" and another group of people that are born "Alcoholic Incapable". The people in the first group only need to add alcohol to topple over that edge, the latter group, no matter how much they drink they will never become physically dependent upon it, although psychological dependence is possible.

The chemical reactions that occur are very complex. In the "Alcoholic Incapable" person, the person drinks alcohol and it continues through the digestive system being broken down and is eventually excreted in the urine as acetic acid....or something very much like vinegar. In the "Alcoholic Ready" person, at the stage of the liver, their body does something a bit different. At the stage of the liver the alcohol has been broken down into a chemical called acetelaldehyde. This is a very deadly chemical and if you were to ingest it, it would kill you. The alcohlic capable liver takes and shoots some of this acetelaldehyde directly into the bloodstream where it is carried to the brain. This is where all of the reactions occur.

The end product is a substance called Tetra-hydro-iso-quiniline or THIQ for short. THIQ is a very powerful, sticky sap-like substance that coats the dopamine receptors of the brain. Each of us produces dopamine, it is the chemical that makes us feel happy and on an even keel. THIQ interferes with your body's ability to utilize the dopamine you create. It is 10 times more addictive than morphine and once it is produced it is there to stay. This explains tolerance and also why a person who stops drinking for an extended period of years and goes back to it will be just as bad off if not worse than they were within a very short period of time when they begin drinking again. THIQ is produced in people who are capable of manufacturing it from alcohol, opiates and cocaine.

Although the disease concept is clearly medically documented, it does not however negate the alcoholic from the responsibilities of the consequences of their disease. It also does not take into account the social concept of the disease which encompasses the reasons that people are drawn to the alcohol in the first place.

I hope this helps you out some and if you care to, you may contact me personally and I will give you as much information as I can. What I have given you here is just a very basic overview of the process. I would have to do some digging through my old things to find the more detailed process.


< Message edited by mistoferin -- 2/4/2005 1:06:10 PM >

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to devotionsweet)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: Alcoholic help - 2/4/2005 1:06:41 PM   
jillwfsub4blkdom


Posts: 375
Joined: 7/2/2004
Status: offline 		i am an alcoholic and i always will be one. When a person stops drinking, it doesn't change that fact. i believe it is genetic. my oldest sister is also an alcoholic. i believe it is a disease. my drink of choice was beer. When i would sit down to drink, i couldn't just stop at one or two but would drink until i would pass or blackout. i don't have the ability to stop once i start drinking. i have also learned that even though an alcoholic would remain sober for a period of time. If a person would pick up a drink a couple of years later, they would start drinking more than they used to because their body doesn't register that they have stopped drinking. i was sober for 18 months and i can verify that for myself. i am now sober again have slipped a couple of times. It is a tough struggle that your friend has to view as AA says "one day at a time". Good luck and he is fortunate to have you as a support system.

jill

_____________________________


"It's the moment that transcends
Our physical into a more spiritual level of understanding" - Musiq

(in reply to devotionsweet)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Alcoholic help - 2/4/2005 1:30:28 PM   
devotionsweet


Posts: 14
Joined: 12/16/2004
Status: offline 		Thank you all for your knowlage, it's interesting (to me anyway) that in all my searching online, i would have already been MUCH better off just posting here....

i spoke with him on the tele. earlier today, it's interesting to see the difference being seperated from the world has made, i.e. when he was going in, he brought money with him, so that upon his discharge, he could buy himself liquor on his trip back to his home. Now he's talking about group discussions and doing AA regularly.... my only concern is, is he being genuine? But that's not a question you here can all answer for me!

i will say that all of the abover detailed (which is EXACTLY what i was looking for) information in regaurding it as a disease was enough for me to understand that it IS in fact a disease... i admit i am still skeptical, but i plan on writing down a bit of the aforementioned info to take along with me tommrow, i think being able to reference it will definatly help me not feel so alien to the whole thing.....

As for being in the family, his father was an exceedingly heavy drinker for many many decades..... so...i guess that speaks for itself.
jill, a personal question, if i may (though i would understand if you didn't feel comfortable answering in a public forum) , did/does AA work, is it something that you're done or tried.... if so why or why not? Are there alternatives to AA, something that's not god orientated? i'm thinking the bottom line of it all is, you take from it whatever it is that you can?

Agian, thank ou all SO much for your replies and imput!
~jen


(in reply to jillwfsub4blkdom)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: Alcoholic help - 2/4/2005 2:26:15 PM   
MizSuz


Posts: 1881
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: devotionsweet

To be honest, i don't buy into the whole disease concept, i understand the addiction, the pain, etc. but i can't comprehend, asides from the insurance aspects of it all, it as a disease.....
i've been researching online, and googling/yahooing, posting in AlAnon forums... no one seems to be able to A) inform me in a way in which i can understand, and B) asides from saying yes HUH it's a disease, i can't seem to find answers....
So i'm wondering if anyone here could nudge me in the right direction, perhaps explain to me what i'm not getting....
In any event, i would be truely greatful for any info anyone could supply.



Greetings devotionsweet.

I think before you can understand alcoholism as a disease you must understand that alcoholism is addiction (only in a form that names the substance craved). The point is that addiction is the disease, alcohol is just the vehicle.

There are lots of studies that point towards confirming the notion that the predisposition for addiction is an inheritable trait. But there is much more research that's been done in recent years on the physiological changes and differences between people who are addicts and people who are not. It's not just the brain chemistry, in some instances repeated use of the substance changes the structures in the brain creating self perpetuating cycles. It's like having your inner workings act like a stuck record (or cd?). That rates as "disease" particularly if you break the word disease down when using it. "dis" "ease" The etymology of the prefix "dis" means "do the opposite of" or "deprive of." Having your inner workings stuck on a self destructive cycle could be considered the opposite of "at ease" don't you think?

People in addiction recovery are essentially attempting to create new pathways and responses in their brain and body, much of it by shear force of will and repetition. I'd call that pretty damned admirable and, when looked at that way it is very easy to come to respect and admire the person who is doing it - and to have some level of healthy, well adjusted compassion for the person when they falter.

Check out this website on addiction. Root around and read some of the articles and see if you can get your head around the idea that addiction is a disease. If you can, then alcoholism will make more sense to you.

http://www.addictionsearch.com/addictionsearch/

You may find this article (found within this site) interesting: http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/arh23-3/187-196.pdf


Supporting someone who is in recovery requires clear understanding of yourself, a willingness to examine yourself, a willingness to know your own boundaries and being able to implement them without protracted drama. Al-Anon can help you with those things. I hear you saying you would prefer something less 'faith based' and I wonder if that is your issue with AA. Is that for your own reasons/comfort or because you think that is an issue that may be a sticking point for the person in recovery? Either or both reasons are fine, but figuring out how you can help your friend while being true to your own feelings is important and being able to answer that question may help you find your way.

Good luck with it.




_____________________________

“The more you love, the more you can love—and the more intensely you love. Nor is there any limit on how many you can love. If a person had time enough, he could love all of that majority who are decent and just.”
- Robert Heinlein

(in reply to devotionsweet)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: Alcoholic help - 2/4/2005 2:27:19 PM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

As for being in the family, his father was an exceedingly heavy drinker for many many decades..... so...i guess that speaks for itself.
jill, a personal question, if i may (though i would understand if you didn't feel comfortable answering in a public forum) , did/does AA work, is it something that you're done or tried.... if so why or why not? Are there alternatives to AA, something that's not god orientated? i'm thinking the bottom line of it all is, you take from it whatever it is that you can?


I know I am not Jill but here are my thoughts. As far as him being genuine, yes chances are he is. Will that mean anything long term?....well that is an impossible question to answer.

His father being a drinker is just one more affirmation of his alcoholism. This is definitely hereditary and if he is the first born son his chances of being an alcoholic are in the range of 80%.

Does AA work? They like to say in AA that it works if you work it. This statement is very true and you get out what you put in. While AA does have some glitches it is the best thing that we have available as far as success rates. It is not a God based program but it is based on the concept of a "Higher Power". I believe it has gotten to be seen as God based as many people in crisis tend to lean to religion for strength, so there is a high number of Christians who regularly attend. This is not to say that they are not welcoming of all faiths and beliefs.

I am sure that Jill can attest that this is a very long and rocky road. My ex Sir was the alcoholic that I referred to earlier. He has been to Hell and back several times over. The thing that you have to understand is that you can't "fix" him. It is something only he can do. This is the toughest thing to accept. It is the hardest thing to see someone you care deeply about standing at the edge of that dark abyss and knowing that you are completely powerless to do anything to stop them from falling in.

I myself, in direct contrast with all of my education and experiences on the subject, could not get it out of my head that if anyone could help Him it would be me. That kind of thinking resulted in my staying in a situation far too long. The worst part is that by staying I became an enabler to Him. As the Eagles said in their song...."I didn't love the boy too much, I just loved the boy too well".

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to devotionsweet)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Alcoholic help - 2/4/2005 3:30:08 PM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline 		http://webpages.charter.net/rfhale/thiq.htm
http://www.qis.net/~truth/t_h_i_q_.htm
http://webpages.charter.net/rfhale/stepone.htm

Here are a few links that you might find useful.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Alcoholic help - 2/4/2005 3:35:22 PM   
jillwfsub4blkdom


Posts: 375
Joined: 7/2/2004
Status: offline 		Erin your thoughts were very eloquent. As Erin pointed out, AA uses basically the "higher power" concept in a way to be inclusive to anything that one believes in. i am an agnostic and originally had big difficulties with the concept of God and AA. AA is the best thing to keep people sober. i think in one of my classes i was told that 80% of the people in AA remain sober whereas people not attending have a higher rate of not remaining that way. i would be more than happy to share any thoughts with you on the subject. Also, as Erin pointed out, you can't do it for them. They have to want to do it and to want to do it for themselves. They say sometimes you have to reach bottom before you can really realize that you need to make the necessary changes.

jill

_____________________________


"It's the moment that transcends
Our physical into a more spiritual level of understanding" - Musiq

(in reply to devotionsweet)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Alcoholic help - 2/4/2005 6:54:46 PM   
Darthbetta


Posts: 314
Joined: 12/16/2004
Status: offline 		I like to drink. I have a few cocktails at night to unwind.
By AA standards I am an "alcoholic". but then again so would be 60 % of all americans if they stopped to examine and scrutinize their own drinking habits.

I NEVER drink and drive. Sire I have been out for drinks and I do the dinner thing with wine and what not, but recently I was pulled over for a broken headlight and was found to be "legaly" intoxicated. I found this to be rather odd, but the courts will be the final judge onthe matter, not the doctors or my "liver".

The oxymoron in this paradox is there is not a LEGALYINTOXICATED allowance according to what I had to drink with the standards of the "3 drinks in an hour" rule of thumb.

ALCOHOLIZIM runs in my family on my mothers side. I am very leary about this as to tehfact that perhaps my body is "geneticly predispositioned" to be able to process alcohol differently than most people, yet function normaly in all senses of the way a sober person would.
The problem with alcohol... it is too eazy. I have a naturaly addictive personality, yet I do not get addicted to things for long, and I have the gift of WILL POWER.
I have never done hard drugs, I quit smoking cigarettes (cold turkey after weening down and been smoke free for 5+ years) and I only drink very particular beverages.
a true alkie will drink ANYTHING to get a fix if they do not have any "Shelf" alcohol.
I'd rather NOT drink anything except good whiskey, or wine.

Those who can not keep themselves clear of alcoholic trouble, I send my blessings and well wishes for them a speedy recovery.

I live by "everything in moderation".

it has worked for me till now....... perhaps teh courts will have some mercy on me and my small 150 pound body weight........ stupid "charts".. argh.

Sincerely,

Mr. Stupid for one night.

Darth.

_____________________________

Some of us have an inane knack for calling people on their Bullshit... I just choose to retort with bitter dry Sarcasm, and occasionaly it sinks in. Mostly, I just look like an ass.

(in reply to jillwfsub4blkdom)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Alcoholic help - 2/5/2005 5:34:54 AM   
MizSuz


Posts: 1881
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

"3 drinks in an hour" rule of thumb.



Darth:

Unless things have changed dramatically in the 10 years since I taught defensive driving and motorcycle safety, the rule of thumb is one drink in an hour (if you prefer a BAC of less than .08). I don't know what the law is regarding BAC in your state. I do know that we used to tell folks that if it took them an hour to drink one drink then they probably wouldn't be legal unless they sat in their chair NOT drinking for another hour. So the timer doesn't really start to tick until the end of the last drink and THEN it's one hour to one drink.

As I recall, the Blood Alcohol Limit in most states is .08 except for commercial drivers (which is .04). Of course, much depends on whether you are female or male, etc. But three drinks in an hour is sure to put you over the legal limit.

Here's a chart made by the PA Liquor Control Board to show you what I mean:

http://www.health.org/nongovpubs/bac-chart/


Good luck to you with the courts. I do hope things go well for you.

_____________________________

“The more you love, the more you can love—and the more intensely you love. Nor is there any limit on how many you can love. If a person had time enough, he could love all of that majority who are decent and just.”
- Robert Heinlein

(in reply to Darthbetta)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Alcoholic help - 2/5/2005 1:10:01 PM   
Shayna


Posts: 205
Joined: 1/16/2005
Status: offline 		Another net resource I use frequently in my work is:

http://www.addictionrecoveryguide.org/treatment/programs.html

The success rate of 12-step programs is very difficult to establish; it has a self-selection process in that those who attend regularly are the most likely to be included in an evaluation study and they are the ones who are most motivated to change.

I work with young adults and for many of them a harm reduction approach works best (for more info: http://www.harmreduction.org/prince.html) - a good clinical assessment with a qualified substance abuse professional can be of great assistance in helping someone figure out the best course of treatment.

(in reply to MizSuz)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Alcoholic help - 2/5/2005 1:13:27 PM   
Shayna


Posts: 205
Joined: 1/16/2005
Status: offline 		That link didn't work...here's the main page:

http://www.harmreduction.org/

(in reply to Shayna)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Alcoholic help - 2/5/2005 5:23:55 PM   
perverseangelic


Posts: 2625
Joined: 2/2/2004
From: Davis, Ca
Status: offline 		Hello,
My mom and dad are both alchoholics. My mom has been sober since right after my sister was born--coming up on 20 years.

I believe that there are genetic predispositions to addiction, in general, having witnessed the way it works in my family. I couldn't explain the additicion, nor the idea of alchoholism as a disease, all I can say is that it is amazingly wonderful of you to support your friend.

Also, I'd like to fourth of fifth the testimony that AA is amazing. My mom went through a huge mid-life crisis, left my dad, et al, and she began doing a whole bunch of not-so-good things that she said she wouldnt' do anymore. That is, she started smoking both pot and cigarettes again. Her life basically went out of control in every way it could.

HOWEVER. she -never- took a drink. She went back to every bad habit she'd ever had, and made up a few more, but NEVER touched alchohol. Truly, I thank AA for that. If it didn't teach her strategies for coping with her other addictions, it taught her how to keep from drinking.


Anyway, this is close to me, so I needed to say something.

S



_____________________________

~in the begining it is always dark~

(in reply to Shayna)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Alcoholic help - 2/6/2005 12:37:37 AM   
ShadeDiva


Posts: 1005
Joined: 3/31/2004
From: Sacramento, California
Status: offline 		Just in case folks might be looking for this - a friend of mine has a site that also has forums for those dealing with addictions and alcoholism that are also interested in BDSM.

http://www.twistedjourney.com/journey

Some folks might find that such a kink friendly supprt group for AA or other 12 step programs to be something they wished they could find, and if so, this is one place at least where you can find some really good folks that have been there.

Good luck to those that need it!

~ShadeDiva

_____________________________

~ShadeDiva
My projects of love:
theFetishForums
HumanFauna
Kinked
DommeWorld

(in reply to perverseangelic)
Profile   Post #: 15
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