How Grim Childhood Is..

How Grim Childhood Is.. (Full Version)

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JerseyKrissi72 -> How Grim Childhood Is.. (11/8/2006 7:28:35 AM)
My 11 yr old son asked me today "why are nursery songs so grim"? I wasn't sure what he meant then I thought about it...Some of those nursery rhymes we grew up with were so grim [&:]I was reading this book about the stories behind children's games, and I found the story about this particular one... Long ago, there was a plague about, a plague that brought apon the earth many deaths. Those who had received the disease of which this plague spread, would have a pink ring around their rosies (the place where ur lower arm and upper arm join, like an inner elbow), These rings were a sign of your coming death. When sombody died from this plague, their pockets would be filled with flowers, posies to be exact, then they would be burned. The burnt victim's ashes would then be relesed in the wind, so that all would be blessed, but the disease was only further spread. Hence the nursery rhyme, Ring around the rosies, pockets full of posies, ashes ashes, we all fall down (dead). This plague was the bubonic plague [&:] Do you know of any more?

fergus -> RE: How Grim Childhood Is.. (11/8/2006 9:08:24 AM)
We must remember that nursery rhymes, mythology, and dramatic play are ways in which our children are taught about how to deal with traumatic life events in a safe natural way ... and all through the subconscious. This day and age we are striving desperately to sanitize (what I call the 'Disney-fication' of our cherished stories). The result is successive waves of generations that do not know how to deal with violence. You CAN NOT eliminate violent tendencies within humankind, to do so is to try to deny a natural part of us. What we CAN do is continue to teach about how to deal with these darker sides of our own humanity in natural healthy ways. Nursery rhymes are a clear expression of that. Now, if you look at video game violence and TV violence, it has no context nor social stigma for our youth. They experience it in a cartoonish unrealistic way ... and thus never learn how to properly deal with it. So, we must NOT suppress the violence within our childhood stories and rhymes, they may be the last bastion of dealing with the process of growing up in a safe environment. Okay, now, onto some nursery rhymes. The one about the plague has a couple of different explanations ... including the "ashes ahses" refering to the fire of London in 1666 which more or less eliminated the last big wave of the black death to hit Europe. The Posey thing .... another possible explanation is that people carried poseies with them to A) help cover the stench of death and filth, B) it was believed the 'fresh' odors would ward off malicious ones. Here is another neat one: Little Jack Horner sat in the corner eating his Christmas Pie He Stuck in his thumb and pulled out a plumb and said "What a good boy am I" This was political satire of the day. In the days of Henry the VIII, England went from a Catholic nation to COE. Henry VIII (who started this whole mess) used this as an opportunity to confiscate large portions of Church owned lands. In those days you had legal documents showing title and landownership (not unlike today). Also in those days, you had 'highwaymen" ... robbers. So it was not uncommon to hide valuable things in pies. Thomas Horner (I believe his name was Thomas, not Jack) was transporting some of the documents pertaining to seized lands and allegedly stole one from one of the pies. It is my understanding that his decendents still own the estate to this day. There is a wonderful book I THINK it is called "Words lightly thrown" that explains many of these nursery rhymes. fergus

Lorelei115 -> RE: How Grim Childhood Is.. (11/8/2006 9:30:23 AM)
There's a reason they are called "Grimm"... laugh All kidding aside, try reading some of the original, un"disneyfied" fairy tales sometime. They are pretty gruesome. Like a version of Sleeping Beauty where the prince did more than just "kiss" her to wake her up. (And no, I don't mean the Anne Rice version laugh) Or the versions of Red Riding Hood where no huntsman came to save the day.

mnottertail -> RE: How Grim Childhood Is.. (11/8/2006 9:34:41 AM)
You know, life is rather grim sometimes, and fairytales are an outcropping of stuff that children are scared of as a way of dealing with the unknown..... In the end, the princess gets the prince, the goblin gets it and hansel and gretel get away to do what ever kinky kinda shit they were into.... A tale is woven, and the child comes to some understanding and looks at the world with an alternative view....... Piss on it, I have hacked it to death enough. Ron

windchymes -> RE: How Grim Childhood Is.. (11/8/2006 2:31:58 PM)
Actually, I had wondered all my life why the words "ashes, ashes" were in "Ring Around the Rosie"! lol That is really cool (though worthless, but who cares?[:D]) information! I always thought "when the bough breaks the cradle will fall, and down will come baby, cradle and all" was awful. As is "If I should die before I wake, I pray the Lord my soul to take". Yikes!

JerseyKrissi72 -> RE: How Grim Childhood Is.. (11/8/2006 3:07:57 PM)
Lady bug Lady bug fly away home. Your house in on fire and your children will burn.

FelinePersuasion -> RE: How Grim Childhood Is.. (11/8/2006 9:34:04 PM)
yeah the bow will break nursury does not engender a sense of peace to me. I will never sing it to any kids I have.

LadySeraphina -> RE: How Grim Childhood Is.. (11/8/2006 11:15:06 PM)
On the story arc, have you ever read the real 'little mermaid'? It's very much about sacrifice for love, and how if you reach above your station it will likely end in sorrow - but might be worth if for what small shred of hope there is of it all working out.

Gauge -> RE: How Grim Childhood Is.. (11/8/2006 11:23:21 PM)
quote: The Posey thing .... another possible explanation is that people carried poseies with them to A) help cover the stench of death and filth, B) it was believed the 'fresh' odors would ward off malicious ones. I remember reading somewhere that the poseies were used to color people's cheeks giving them a rosy, less sickly appearance. But the memory is vague so I might be mistaken and... I most likely am.

JerseyKrissi72 -> RE: How Grim Childhood Is.. (11/9/2006 1:52:48 AM)
Don't ask me where we got it from but as kids we would take dandelions and pluck the flowers off and see how high they would fly and say "Momma had a baby and it's head popped off"[&:]

fergus -> RE: How Grim Childhood Is.. (11/9/2006 12:10:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JerseyKrissi72 Don't ask me where we got it from but as kids we would take dandelions and pluck the flowers off and see how high they would fly and say "Momma had a baby and it's head popped off"[&:] Me too. I wonder if that was a Jersey thing? a generational thing? or what? fergus

LadyEllen -> RE: How Grim Childhood Is.. (11/9/2006 1:41:52 PM)
There's a good book on the subject "Who Killed Cock Robin" (dont recall the author). It goes through nursery rhymes and fairytales and shows where they come from. Also suggest the original Grimm Bros works - full of violence (overt) and lots of sex (less overt) - ever wondered why Red Riding Hood had a red riding hood? (and its nothing to do with headgear btw!) E

mnottertail -> RE: How Grim Childhood Is.. (11/9/2006 1:43:26 PM)
isn't this cross-posted from oral with menustration thread?

JerseyKrissi72 -> RE: How Grim Childhood Is.. (11/9/2006 1:51:09 PM)
You lost me there buddy[8\|]

LadyEllen -> RE: How Grim Childhood Is.. (11/9/2006 1:53:26 PM)
Ron - are you talking about Red Riding Hood? Its nothing to do with menstruation either, at least the way I read it! I see it as a story about the awakening of sexuality in a young woman and a cautionary tale about men. But thats just me, could be wrong, there you go! E

gooddogbenji -> RE: How Grim Childhood Is.. (11/9/2006 2:07:18 PM)
I just recently found a great children's book - Ugly fish. More or less, it's about an ugly fish, alone in a tank, having fun. Then a smaller fish gets added who says hello, gets eaten, and ugly fish has fun again. Then a smaller fish gets added who says hello, gets eaten, and ugly fish has fun again. Finally, ugly fish gets lonely, and wants a friend. He waits for a new fish, and a bigger fish gets thrown in. Ugly fish introduces himself and the new one eats him. How's that for a fucked up story? Yours, benji

kisshou -> RE: How Grim Childhood Is.. (11/9/2006 2:08:24 PM)
Ladybug Ladybug fly away home your house is on fire your children all gone all except one and that's little krissi (insert childs name here) and she has crept up to give me a kissy (make up ryhme to go with childs name) on a related note, obviously Peter Peter Pumpkin eater was the first guy into caging 'kept her in a pumpkin shell' hehe

fergus -> RE: How Grim Childhood Is.. (11/9/2006 6:29:31 PM)
Lady Ellen is right. I had heard the story has some of its earliest source tales from Italy. fergus

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