War Criminals, Beware

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Chaingang -> War Criminals, Beware (11/8/2006 11:17:24 AM)
"War Criminals, Beware" by Jeremy Brecher & Brendan Smith http://www.thenation.com/doc/20061120/brechersmith On November 14 a group of lawyers and other experts will come before the German federal prosecutor and ask him to open a criminal investigation targeting Donald Rumsfeld, Alberto Gonzales and other key Bush Administration figures for war crimes. The recent passage of the Military Commissions Act provides a central argument for the legal action, under the doctrine of universal jurisdiction: It demonstrates the intent of the Bush Administration to immunize itself legally from prosecution in the United States, even for the most serious crimes. --- More at link.

pahunkboy -> RE: War Criminals, Beware (11/8/2006 11:28:44 AM)
that wont happen. the masses would view this as a soviehnty issue.

philosophy -> RE: War Criminals, Beware (11/8/2006 11:31:03 AM)
"that wont happen. the masses would view this as a soviehnty issue." ....there is no sovereign right to commit war crimes........however, i would suggest that there is a prima facie case for a prosecution of the IDF for war crimes.

mnottertail -> RE: War Criminals, Beware (11/8/2006 11:31:32 AM)
Uh, we did it to them and wrote and made precedent in the laws........the krauts aughta be able to argue it effectively enough to embarrass us. They turn out to have a little experience with war crimes and walking unilaterally into another country without provocation......... I think it will be a hoot!!!!!!!!! Ron

NorthernGent -> RE: War Criminals, Beware (11/8/2006 12:07:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Chaingang "War Criminals, Beware" by Jeremy Brecher & Brendan Smith http://www.thenation.com/doc/20061120/brechersmith On November 14 a group of lawyers and other experts will come before the German federal prosecutor and ask him to open a criminal investigation targeting Donald Rumsfeld, Alberto Gonzales and other key Bush Administration figures for war crimes. The recent passage of the Military Commissions Act provides a central argument for the legal action, under the doctrine of universal jurisdiction: It demonstrates the intent of the Bush Administration to immunize itself legally from prosecution in the United States, even for the most serious crimes. --- More at link. If they're found guilty, then what? When the Nicaraguans took the US Government to the International Court of Justice in 1986, the US were ordered to pay $12bn for voilating Nicaragua's sovereignty. The US Government simply withdrew from the ICJ. I would seriously doubt the likes of Rumsfeld is remotely worried at the prospect of being tried as they will simply ignore it.

philosophy -> RE: War Criminals, Beware (11/8/2006 12:10:04 PM)
"When the Nicaraguans took the US Government to the International Court of Justice in 1986, the US were ordered to pay $12bn for voilating Nicaragua's sovereignty. The US Government simply withdrew from the ICJ. I would seriously doubt the likes of Rumsfeld is remotely worried at the prospect of being tried as they will simply ignore it." ....truth, justice and the American way?

pahunkboy -> RE: War Criminals, Beware (11/8/2006 12:10:05 PM)
he/they wouldnt get a fair assessment here in the US. not when daddio installed the supreme court. an independent counsel is not an option. both parties said so after the clinton impeacment. so under current law, that isnt an option. the US embarrassed? thats a tuff one. alot of noise could be made.... i dont think the truth would ever get out. no admission to it anyhow. if such would further global peace, ild be for it. as for it to be an internal matter- the circus needs to end. i have to wonder if w is under suicide watch at this hour.....

mnottertail -> RE: War Criminals, Beware (11/8/2006 12:14:39 PM)
LOL, prolly not, but they ain't letting him near any pretzels or booze i'm betting.

caitlyn -> RE: War Criminals, Beware (11/8/2006 12:50:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: philosophy "When the Nicaraguans took the US Government to the International Court of Justice in 1986, the US were ordered to pay $12bn for voilating Nicaragua's sovereignty. The US Government simply withdrew from the ICJ. I would seriously doubt the likes of Rumsfeld is remotely worried at the prospect of being tried as they will simply ignore it." ....truth, justice and the American way? It has nothing to do with the American way. It is the way strong countries play the game. It has never been any different, and never will be.

philosophy -> RE: War Criminals, Beware (11/8/2006 1:44:48 PM)
"It has nothing to do with the American way. It is the way strong countries play the game. It has never been any different, and never will be." ........your usual argument Caitlyn....might makes right..........and do you still deny your fascist tendencies? Have you no concept of a system of ethics that is independent of someone holding a gun over your head? You have just participated in an election........if your politicians are working to the principle that power excuses all things, it is you, as a voter, that gives them that power. Will you take responsibility for that?

meatcleaver -> RE: War Criminals, Beware (11/8/2006 3:02:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent When the Nicaraguans took the US Government to the International Court of Justice in 1986, the US were ordered to pay $12bn for voilating Nicaragua's sovereignty. The US Government simply withdrew from the ICJ. I would seriously doubt the likes of Rumsfeld is remotely worried at the prospect of being tried as they will simply ignore it. While I don't think a guilty verdict would make any material difference I think there are plenty of Americans with a moral conscience and are concerned with how their country are seen around the world. I have a couple of American friends here and a few acquintences and they don't like what is being done in their name. In fact there was a programme about the American elections on the BBC world service where plenty of Americans were concerned about how the world views their country. I think a verdict would have an impact, not a sensational one but a fundemental if quiet one. Now, when are they going to prosecute Blair? He can't escape with being in the EU and I think Britain recognizes the doctrine of universal jurisdiction which was why Britain arrested Pinochet while he was being investigated by Spain.

thompsonx -> RE: War Criminals, Beware (11/8/2006 3:19:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent quote: ORIGINAL: Chaingang "War Criminals, Beware" by Jeremy Brecher & Brendan Smith http://www.thenation.com/doc/20061120/brechersmith On November 14 a group of lawyers and other experts will come before the German federal prosecutor and ask him to open a criminal investigation targeting Donald Rumsfeld, Alberto Gonzales and other key Bush Administration figures for war crimes. The recent passage of the Military Commissions Act provides a central argument for the legal action, under the doctrine of universal jurisdiction: It demonstrates the intent of the Bush Administration to immunize itself legally from prosecution in the United States, even for the most serious crimes. --- More at link. If they're found guilty, then what? When the Nicaraguans took the US Government to the International Court of Justice in 1986, the US were ordered to pay $12bn for voilating Nicaragua's sovereignty. The US Government simply withdrew from the ICJ. I would seriously doubt the likes of Rumsfeld is remotely worried at the prospect of being tried as they will simply ignore it. NorthernGent: Lets suppose they were convicted. Do you think it possible that the international equivelant of the 82nd airborn division would swoop down on the criminals like we did in Panama? Or do you think that there might be an international equivelant to gullag at Guantanamo where these individuals could be kept as they see fit to keep others? Yeah I been doin' dem mind alterin' substances again. thompson

NorthernGent -> RE: War Criminals, Beware (11/8/2006 3:26:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: philosophy "It has nothing to do with the American way. It is the way strong countries play the game. It has never been any different, and never will be." ........your usual argument Caitlyn....might makes right..........and do you still deny your fascist tendencies? Have you no concept of a system of ethics that is independent of someone holding a gun over your head? You have just participated in an election........if your politicians are working to the principle that power excuses all things, it is you, as a voter, that gives them that power. Will you take responsibility for that? There is some truth in the statement that world powers abuse their position and the people fall into line. Look at the British Empire, history tells us they did little more than rampage around the world for the benefit of the British upper and middle classes. At the time, the majority of British people viewed their country as a force elightening the rest of the world with democracy, freedom etc - fast forward 200 years and you have the US. The argument falls down in the sense that civilisation is meant to be progress and, in contrast to this, the US is dragging us back 200 years. Bombing campaigns, economic sanctions, supplying countries with weapons to blow others into oblivion - that is not strength, it's morally bankrupt - the people of such a country can only be described as weak.

meatcleaver -> RE: War Criminals, Beware (11/8/2006 4:27:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent The argument falls down in the sense that civilisation is meant to be progress and, in contrast to this, the US is dragging us back 200 years. Bombing campaigns, economic sanctions, supplying countries with weapons to blow others into oblivion - that is not strength, it's morally bankrupt - the people of such a country can only be described as weak. I thought you was an historian. You should know that civilisation doesn't progress in anyway but technologically. The 20th century was the most violent since the 14th in percentage of the world population violently killed. For the most part the USA was not a major part in that. Criticize the US for its current policies but lay off the anti-American hyperbole, it doesn't do your argument any favours. And yes, the British empire straddled some of the most peaceful centuries during that period and compared to other empires the British empire was a positive sea of tranquility despite all its crimes. If you want to criticize violent evil empires, try the French, the Spanish, the German, the Russian and the Japanese empires. The slave trade run by the Arabs, the pre-European African fraticide. The problem is a human problem, not an American one.

MasterKalif -> RE: War Criminals, Beware (11/8/2006 4:44:35 PM)
That is not going to happen....monkeyboy Rumsfeld (excuse me but he is the most idiotic of the administration) nor to Albert Gonzalez, plus Gonzalez has no direct involvement with the torrid Iraq affair (maybe indirectly)....unlike Rumsfeld. In any case, what if the International Tribunal were to decide to make the US pay or "extradite" people, the US would never do it, as mentioned in the Nicaragua case. I believe in sovereignity, but lets face it, Germany has no business getting involved in other countries affairs just like Britain had no affair arresting a former Chilean head of state in 1998 (General Pinochet) when Chile had its own laws and tools to judge their own ex-dictator (and a democratic country to boot). In the end this legal chaos becomes only a show were the strongest or richest states impose their national laws on foreigners and other nations where their law has no official jurisdiction. In this case Germany cannot argue that crimes were committed against Germans nor that German laws apply to the United States or the way its leaders act (whether right or wrong). Only the International Tribunal, at this point in diappers, can or should impose some verdict and force some action of compliance....but this won't happen. It is up to each country to learn from its wrongs and bring their own to justice.

meatcleaver -> RE: War Criminals, Beware (11/8/2006 4:58:13 PM)
Hmm Why was America so instrumental in bringing Saddam to trial? Why were they so instrumental in the Nuremburg trials? You can't say crimes against humanity apply to everyone else but us. The west could do with a few of its politicians on trial for crimes against humanity to help it to look in the mirror. Maybe then we will have behaviour from our politicians that we expect from our children and neighbours.

Sinergy -> RE: War Criminals, Beware (11/8/2006 5:06:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent If they're found guilty, then what? I am guessing they will sell the tickets for their vacation to Europe on E-bay. On a serious note, though. As long as they stay in the country, the Germans cannot do anything about it. On the other hand, if a War Crimes Tribunal issues warrants for their arrest, they might be in a pretty pickle if they were subpeonaed to stand trial in the United States for War Crimes. As I recall, countries like Venezuala and Argentina took in a lot of war criminals after World War II. The irony of anybody in the Monkeyboy administration seeking refuge in a country where they compared the democratically elected leader to people like Hitler and Stalin is just too funny. The toes you stomp on today may be connected to the ass you have to kiss tomorrow. Sinergy

Termyn8or -> RE: War Criminals, Beware (11/8/2006 5:44:49 PM)
Gent; "the people of such a country can only be described as weak. " Yes. In this country we can do nothing to stop it. I for one, and almost everyone I know is against the government's actions, but we are not strong enough to do anything about it. The government tarnishes the Citizens' name in alot of ways. And by the way, the MFs ARE guilty of war crimes. The use of depleted uranium weapons is specifically defined as a war crime, and they did it. They know it, we know it and you know it. It has been said that US policies are actually a good thing for recruiting new terrorists, but if we commited war crimes we are the terrorists, they are actually freedom fighters. A real Patriot does not follow the government blindly, he questions and accuses and complains when necessary. There are too few of us and too many of them. I hope they do bust them. T

thompsonx -> RE: War Criminals, Beware (11/8/2006 7:30:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sinergy quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent If they're found guilty, then what? I am guessing they will sell the tickets for their vacation to Europe on E-bay. On a serious note, though. As long as they stay in the country, the Germans cannot do anything about it. On the other hand, if a War Crimes Tribunal issues warrants for their arrest, they might be in a pretty pickle if they were subpeonaed to stand trial in the United States for War Crimes. As I recall, countries like Venezuala and Argentina took in a lot of war criminals after World War II. The irony of anybody in the Monkeyboy administration seeking refuge in a country where they compared the democratically elected leader to people like Hitler and Stalin is just too funny. The toes you stomp on today may be connected to the ass you have to kiss tomorrow. Sinergy Sinergy: Now would'nt that be a sight....bush & co. going hat in hand to Hugo Chavez and asking if they could crib with him there till things blew over at home. thompson

caitlyn -> RE: War Criminals, Beware (11/8/2006 10:15:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: philosophy "It has nothing to do with the American way. It is the way strong countries play the game. It has never been any different, and never will be." ........your usual argument Caitlyn....might makes right..........and do you still deny your fascist tendencies? Have you no concept of a system of ethics that is independent of someone holding a gun over your head? You have just participated in an election........if your politicians are working to the principle that power excuses all things, it is you, as a voter, that gives them that power. Will you take responsibility for that? You would be very foolish to assume that because I understand something, and accept it for what it is ... that I approve of it.

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