The BDSM conundrum.

Collarspace Discussion Forums

Home Login Search

The BDSM conundrum.

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> The BDSM conundrum.

Page: [1] 2 next > >>

Login

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

The BDSM conundrum. - 2/5/2005 7:53:10 AM

DeadofKnight

Posts: 29
Joined: 10/2/2004
Status: offline

In my years of reading the BDSM forums elsewhere and here on CM, I have seen many people separate D/s from BDSM. Domination and submission is a part of BDSM and not in any way separate from it. It is right there in the middle of it... i.e. BDSM.
When I was in my infancy and learning of this so provocative lifestyle, I ran across an article about this very aspect. BDSM is a six part conundrum. B/d, D/s, S/m to be exact. It has been shortened to BDSM so as to not be redundant.
For me, how could you separate D&S from B&D or S&M? They go hand in hand. Although they are separate for some, they are not for me. Domination and submission are an integral piece of the puzzle of my ‘lifestyle’. Are they for you?
When I first was learning of all of this I was very curious and very interested. I did extensive searches and found many a website that were pure fluff, not what I wanted. I wanted information, and lots of it. I wanted to know what we were all talking about, with clarity. It was not an easy task. Luckily I found one that I consider my ‘bible’ for definitions to all of this. I was very thankful that someone had defined the terms for me.
The place that I learned so very much from is the website

www.steel-door.com

At this site there is the section known as

http://www.steel-door.com/Chamber.html

This section is devoted to defining the terms we use everyday and some you may not know. Maybe this website will give some more insight to what they may not understand by reading the definitions of the terms that this Mistress has compiled. But, be forewarned, it is extensive. Some of the definitions are quite in-depth and lengthy. I spent many days there, occasionally having to take breaks, or sleep on it, to let it all jell in my mind. Actually, I spent weeks there. LOL
I know it helped me in my early days, years ago, and it may help you. I still use this website for reference when I may be unclear about something. I send my friends there as well.

These are my views, my opinions and they may not be yours.
Have a Safe, Sane and Consensual journey.
And, have fun in the process of it.

DeadofKnight

< Message edited by DeadofKnight -- 3/5/2005 9:06:23 AM >

_____________________________

Knight

These are my views and my opinions. Please treat them as such.
If you'd like to ask a question of my posts, mail me here on Collarme.
Mutually collared with hesterprynne

Post #: 1

RE: The BDSM conundrum. - 2/5/2005 8:06:08 AM

sub4hire

Posts: 6775
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

quote:

BDSM is a six part conundrum. B/d, D/s, S/m to be exact. It has been shortened to BDSM so as to not be redundant.
For me, how could you separate D&S from B&D or S&M?

When I talk about the lifestyle, I emphasize I am mostly D/s based. Why, because that is the part I am most involved in. I do agree the lifestyle is rounded into it all. However some do not use all of it.
Tops and bottoms rarely use the D/s aspect. So, why would they say BDSM as a whole? It would only serve to confuse people all the more.

That is my take on the question.

(in reply to DeadofKnight)

Post #: 2

RE: The BDSM conundrum. - 2/5/2005 8:22:54 AM

mistoferin

Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline

Being older than dirt I can say that in the beginnings of my experience in this lifestyle the term BDSM was a phrase that was generally thought to mean Bondage & Discipline, Sadism & Masochism. This was before the age of the internet when information became so widely available to us all. If you said you were into BDSM, this is generally what people thought you meant.

For myself, the term BDSM has become all encompassing to include D/s and I feel that whether said or not, that aspect of it was always a part.

There are people that do seperate the terms and practice only parts of it in their life. I personally know of 2 couples who are striclty D/s. No Bondage & Discipline....No Sadism & Masochism. They will quite honestly tell you that the sexual aspects of their relationship are quite boringly "vanilla". They simple get off on the Power Exchange in the other aspects of their relationship together. I would have to think that there are others out there who practice this way also.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to DeadofKnight)

Post #: 3

RE: The BDSM conundrum. - 2/5/2005 8:26:14 AM

sub4hire

Posts: 6775
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

quote:

There are people that do seperate the terms and practice only parts of it in their life. I personally know of 2 couples who are striclty D/s. No Bondage & Discipline....No Sadism & Masochism. They will quite honestly tell you that the sexual aspects of their relationship are quite boringly "vanilla". They simple get off on the Power Exchange in the other aspects of their relationship together. I would have to think that there are others out there who practice this way also.

We are primarily D/s. Yet the play aspect is the frosting on the cake. It is not required but liked a great deal. So there are times when life is just bad that other things are on our minds and we don't get to play for month's on end. Then other times we can play once or twice a week. Which is why I classify us as D/s a majority of the time.

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 4

RE: The BDSM conundrum. - 2/5/2005 8:45:50 AM

DeadofKnight

Posts: 29
Joined: 10/2/2004
Status: offline

Hello Gloria,
Well, we should only take the parts of it that fit each of us.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sub4hire

When I talk about the lifestyle, I emphasize I am mostly D/s based. Why, because that is the part I am most involved in. I do agree the lifestyle is rounded into it all. However some do not use all of it.

In my opinion, that is the beauty of this. We are supposed to be accepting of all that involve themselves, while participating in what works for each of us.

But, when someone says it this way... BDSM and D/s... it is that they are seperating the two, as if they are distinctly different. They are not different. They are part and piece of the whole. But, I do concure, take what you want and leave the rest. I do.

These are my views, my opinions and they may not be yours.
Have a Safe, Sane and Consensual journey.
And, have fun in the process of it.

DeadofKnight

< Message edited by DeadofKnight -- 3/5/2005 9:07:07 AM >

_____________________________

Knight

These are my views and my opinions. Please treat them as such.
If you'd like to ask a question of my posts, mail me here on Collarme.
Mutually collared with hesterprynne

(in reply to sub4hire)

Post #: 5

RE: The BDSM conundrum. - 2/5/2005 8:58:44 AM

topcat

Posts: 1675
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Tidewater, VA
Status: offline

quote:

how could you separate D&S from B&D or S&M?

M. DOK-

Easily- before someone rips your arm off and feeds it to you, Let me try a gentler apporach.

All of this is highly individual- there is no 'scene'- no single unified culture sharing mores, norms, standards of behavior and a common language.

For starters- I detest the term BDSM- it covers so much ground, it means nothing. About ten years ago, I was in a BDSM relationship- but it took us ten months to realise that I wanted D/S, she wanted B&D, and we were meeting in the middle on SM!

A few months ago, I was at a dinner party with friends, and I began- almost incidentally, working a scene with a masochist I know- there was no bondage or discipline involved, nor dominance, nor submission. It started from her statement that she had never found anyone 'too much' pain, and my attempts to convince her otherwise, using presure points, joint manipulations, etc., all just hand work, and only about pain (we called it a draw after about five hours).

And I have done a lot of scenes that were just an episodic, light, bondage and spanking sort of thing, that weren't really about pain or dominance or submission at all, just mutally agreeable kinky sex.

As well as so many that blurred the lines- and really- the lines aren't there at all- anywhere but in our heads. It's all just a continumum. We all carry around our own scene, that ends at our skulls-and if we are lucky, we might find a person or two who overlaps their scene with ours...

Stay warm,
Lawrence

_____________________________

-there is no remission without blood-

(in reply to DeadofKnight)

Post #: 6

RE: The BDSM conundrum. - 2/5/2005 9:02:55 AM

sub4hire

Posts: 6775
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

quote:

someone

Someone? I can think of lot's of someones. Sorry but that one word came across funny to me for some reason.

I was thinking the conversation is going to go like 2 other's have went recently.

(in reply to topcat)

Post #: 7

RE: The BDSM conundrum. - 2/5/2005 10:17:09 AM

DeadofKnight

Posts: 29
Joined: 10/2/2004
Status: offline

Hello topcat,
I only meant that D/s is a part of the whole of BDSM, not that you cannot take just the piece of it, if it works for you as it does work for me. Just that it is not a seperate thing in ond of it's own.
In general, some people seem to seperate the two as if they do not fall into the "whole" spectrum. That is all.
Personally, I do not see myself as a Sadist. What I do enjoy, in that arena, is when the one I am "playing' with desires that form or type of activity. I can get into it and enjoy it. But, I do not have any type of need or desire to cause pain to fulfill something from within myself. It is not "my" turn-on, it is thiers and I enjoy it from that aspect.

quote:

All of this is highly individual- there is no 'scene'- no single unified culture sharing mores, norms, standards of behavior and a common language.

For starters- I detest the term BDSM- it covers so much ground, it means nothing.

I agree that it covers to much ground.
That is why we get into sharing specifics of what we like and WIITWD, to understand where and what things we like and enjoy with and in our partners.
Personally, I am into some parts of B&D, some parts of D&S, very little S&M and some kinky sex, if we have to seperate them out. That's just me and my preferences.

I agree that the lines can be blurred into non-existance, especially where labeling is involved. I don't care for labels, they are to limiting, IMO. A girl I know, just getting to know in R/L, fits into different catagories and only parts of those. So, we are not labeling her in any one or more. I like this. It give me room to be versitile in who I am and our play/scene/relationship/what-have-you.

Thank you for your reply, I do see what you mean and where some of your interests are. I did learn a thing or two from your reply. Again, thank you.

DoK

< Message edited by DeadofKnight -- 3/5/2005 9:09:52 AM >

_____________________________

Knight

These are my views and my opinions. Please treat them as such.
If you'd like to ask a question of my posts, mail me here on Collarme.
Mutually collared with hesterprynne

(in reply to topcat)

Post #: 8

RE: The BDSM conundrum. - 2/5/2005 11:23:54 AM

Moleculor

Posts: 189
Joined: 5/23/2004
Status: offline

For this entire post, I'm going to assume you're refering to D/s as most people tend to use it. (i.e. Referencing non-sexual or semi-sexual dominance and submission rules and guidelines for behaviour outside of the bedroom (or kitchen, or wherever you fuck).)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DeadofKnight

Hello topcat,
I only meant that D/s is a part of the whole of BDSM, not that you cannot take just the piece of it, if it works for you as it does work for me. Just that it is not a seperate thing in ond of it's own.
In general, some people seem to seperate the two as if they do not fall into the "whole" spectrum. That is all.

And? You seem to be implying that not being into D/s yet being into other portions of BDSM is somehow "wrong".

quote:

Personally, I do not see myself as a Sadist. What I do enjoy, in that arena, is when the one I am "playing' with desires that form or type of activity. I can get into it and enjoy it. But, I do not have any type of need or desire to cause pain to fulfill something from within myself. It is not "my" turn-on, it is thiers and I enjoy it from that aspect.

Ok. Fine. And what if sadism squicked you? Would you still be capable of enjoying other portions of BDSM then? Certainly.

To me, from a top perspective, implimentation of rules of behaviour, guidelines for roles, and other such D/s things are anathema to me because they restrict ME as well as the person who is my bottom. If I create rules to be followed, that means I must fit into a role that compliments those roles as well.

From a bottom perspective... well, quite honestly, when I say bottom, I mean -bottom-, and not submissive or slave. I like the idea of being on bottom during sex, and that's about as far as it goes. D/s never enters into the equation.

External, non-sexual D/s would most likely be the quickest way to turn me into a raving mass of anger and/or frustration.

You may believe that D/s is some form of intergal part of being kinky, but the moment you start trying to squish me into your pretty little "mold" is the day I say "Screw you."

(in reply to DeadofKnight)

Post #: 9

RE: The BDSM conundrum. - 2/5/2005 11:51:16 AM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

BDSM is an acronym for Bondage/discipline/sadism/masocism.

Is BDSM used in D/s? In some relationships it is.
Is D/s used in BDSM? In certain scenes or relationships, sure.
Is D/s a form of BDSM? I wouldnt say so.

But is isnt part of, it is an essential componant used in certain relationships. Being Gay, isnt part of BDSM... it's something used within it. Being a trans isnt part of, its used within it. Yes, there are people who scene using Domination and submission within the relationship, but there are even more who are naturally Dominants or submissive and do not conciously become, they just are.

BDSM is more a concious decision. Domination, submission, sexual preference are more of a unconcious one. That isnt to say it cannot be intergrated into a BDSM scene or relationship.

Only in the last oooo... 10 or so years, has the term Bondage discipline/Domination submission/sadism masocism has misused the acronym.

Peace and Love

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to DeadofKnight)

Post #: 10

RE: The BDSM conundrum.( a note concerning 'BDSM') - 2/5/2005 12:59:41 PM

topcat

Posts: 1675
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Tidewater, VA
Status: offline

Midear Angel-

Can you cite a timeline on that?

When I first made the scene in San Francisco in the mid eighties, the this stuff was mostly refered to as SM (never S&M). I first heard the acronym 'BDSM' in section 12b of compuserve around '95-'96, when it was clearly defined as representing B&D, D/S, and SM all together.

While there are many books out there on this stuff, these days, but there are only three that I turn to as 'scripture' (besides the BlackBook, of course)- Jay Wiseman's SM101(1992), Miller and Devon's Screw the Roses, Send me the thorns(1995), and Different Loving (1996) by Brame, Brame, and Jacobs. (my copies of these are all published earlier than '98)

Different Loving uses the term D&S exclusivly, as far I I can discern, though, I do recall that my in conversations with Gloria Brame in the mid ninties, she did use the term BDSM, and having founded the 12b section of compuserve, I believe she used it in the sense I noted above.

SM101 uses the term SM, and in leafing though it just now, I can't find any referance to 'BDSM'.

In Screw the Roses... SM is used, though my 1998 edition does mention BDSM in the glossary:

quote:

BDSM- Once upon a time this was all called Sadomasochism (SM, S/M or S&M) and we were all deemed very bad, sick, perverted people. We were just people, though, as horny as everyone is, with a little kink to make us special. But some of us didn't want to be called sick, bad perverts and those people invented names like Dominance and Submission (D&S, DS or D/s), Love Bondage (Love Bondage) and Bondage and Discipline (B&D) to make themselves and the pleasure police think that what they did was different from what those sad, twisted, nasty old sadomasochists did, no no! Then we all got online with our personal computers(well, a lot of us did) and began doing what people do best when they are not having sex: argue. For months, arguements about labels for our kinks clogged up the computer networks.

Finally, the term BDSM was born. This made many kinky people happy because it incorporated Bondage and Discipline (BD), Dominance and Submission (DS) and Sadomasochism (SM). We told the love Bondage set that we loved them very much. To prove it, we tied them all up and dumped them in a deserted warehouse in East L.A. where we kept them bound in a circle whining Barry Manilow tunes from behind their gags. Did the aguements stop? Fat Chance. Most of us, though, have found other things to argue about between sexual encounters.

(I can't believe I typed the whole thing- funny though, and pertinant- Thank you Molly, where ever you are <g>.)

Stay Warm,
Lawrence

< Message edited by topcat -- 2/5/2005 1:01:09 PM >

_____________________________

-there is no remission without blood-

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 11

RE: The BDSM conundrum.( a note concerning 'BDSM') - 2/5/2005 2:45:26 PM

mistoferin

Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline

Aha Topcat Sir....you are so right. Maybe I am getting old but gosh it's hard to remember way back then. It was generally referred to as SM. I think that the first time I heard the term BDSM in it's entirety was the early to mid 90's, but even then it was not broken up into the B&D, D/s, S&M, but merely BD/SM. I live in the midwest and maybe we are a bit behind but I think that appox time is pretty close.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to topcat)

Post #: 12

RE: The BDSM conundrum.( a note concerning 'BDSM') - 2/5/2005 3:29:49 PM

mistoferin

Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline

According to this link it puts the time of the appearance of the term BDSM at the early 1990's.

http://www.albanypowerexchange.com/History/flogging_history.htm

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 13

RE: The BDSM conundrum. - 2/5/2005 4:22:23 PM

DeadofKnight

Posts: 29
Joined: 10/2/2004
Status: offline

My gawd people, why do we have to fight about semantics such as this.
I was not saying you have to fit within my definitions or anyone elses.
I was just pointing out some simple differences in how "some people" relate that domination and submission are not a part of BDSM. Domination and submission are encompassed within BDSM.
This in no way means that you "must" accept all of it as your own and do all of it. That would be absurd!
Get a grip on reality! The vast amount of people entering into this only know what they have been told, not what they have researched or know before the advent of the internet.

In no way was I saying you had to adhere to what works for me. When I first started researching BDSM, B&D D&S S&M, I was allowed to take what works for me and leave the rest. That is still how I feel about it. That is still what I teach to those that are new to it. AND I ALWAYS WILL!

And, I am not implying that D/s should not be allowed to be separated out, eiether. You can separate out of any of this that works for you. If you are only into B&D, or D&S or S&M, so be it. That is what works for you. And any pieces of any of those as well.

Such a simple statement seems to be easily perverted into something totally different than the words themselves originally stated. Which is; some people say "I am into BDSM and D/s." That just isn't right, in my opinion. Domination and submission are incorporated within the whole spectrum of BDSM. If you do not wish to be associated with the term BDSM, so be it, that is your choice.

And, when I say "Personally", it is how I see things for myself. It IS what it I take from the whole for me. I do NOT project that upon you! So, stop assuming that I do.

As was said here:

quote:

To me, from a top perspective, implimentation of rules of behaviour, guidelines for roles, and other such D/s things are anathema to me because they restrict ME as well as the person who is my bottom. If I create rules to be followed, that means I must fit into a role that compliments those roles as well.

I do not fit completely into any one role. I will not be limited to the confines of labels. My current girl doesn't fit into any one of them as well. They are to limiting and I am limitless.

Thank you to all that have responded.

DoK

< Message edited by DeadofKnight -- 3/5/2005 8:48:45 AM >

_____________________________

Knight

These are my views and my opinions. Please treat them as such.
If you'd like to ask a question of my posts, mail me here on Collarme.
Mutually collared with hesterprynne

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 14

RE: The BDSM conundrum.( a note concerning 'BDSM') - 2/5/2005 4:43:44 PM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

Dear Lawrence...

I can't site the exact date, but I do remember reading a couple of Cambridge (yikes at my Britishness...lol) papers on the usage of acronyms in modern society back in I guess 98-99... again, no exact month(maybe searching the cambridge uni site for old papers?). I agree with You. SM was a completely seperate entity... I have a Dominant friend who is in His 70's who is always adamant I do not use the word BDSM around Him as its' too much of a compromise'......lol, and my copy of 'Roses' is the same year as yours...

But apart from my vagueness on the timeline... its different things for different people... My thought was that BDSM is a fairly new term, as is the meaning that surround it. Like everything else, the words and meaning become manipulated and changed to fit their 'belief'... and progress across the years...which is not a negative thing. Like old guard/new guard... those terms are changed all the time.. and no one can seem to agree on the meanings. But thats the whole beauty, isnt it?

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to topcat)

Post #: 15

RE: The BDSM conundrum. - 2/5/2005 4:43:50 PM

mistoferin

Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline

quote:

I wanted information, and lots of it. I wanted to know what we were all talking about, with clarity.

First of all I do not see any fight going on on this thread. I don't think that anyone thought that we have to fit into your definitions. You asked for information and it was given to you.

quote:

Get a grip on reality! The vast amount of people entering into this only know what they have been told, not what they have researched or know before the advent of the internet.

The "reality" is that people have been participating long before the internet was ever even thought of. The internet is a wonderful tool but I think it is important that we all realize that this lifestyle did not begin with it's invention. I think that those of us who were here pre-internet need to try our best to educate those who are coming into this solely through that medium. The internet has certainly enlightened many people, but in some instances, many of the "old ways" have been forgotten or bastardized.

"Personally", it is how I see things for myself. It IS what it I take from the whole for me. I do NOT project that upon you! So, stop assuming that I do.

I don't think that anyone here has assumed that. Nor do I think that anyone here has asked you to change your views or position. Take what you can personally use and leave the rest - a good rule not only in this lifestyle but in life in general.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to DeadofKnight)

Post #: 16

RE: The BDSM conundrum. - 2/5/2005 4:46:51 PM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

dear DoK

Do not think that anyone feels you are trying to push your thoughts upon others. You stated Your views, in an open forum... which gives us the ability to talk and discuss it.

You lay down You opinion, and we lay down ours.

Peace and Love

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to DeadofKnight)

Post #: 17

RE: The BDSM conundrum. - 2/5/2005 4:52:08 PM

MistressDREAD

Posts: 2943
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

ThankYou DeadofKnight for mention of the link.
HOWEVER I do not see the riddle with in the letter
or words nor do You seem to be puzzled, confused,
or mystified. We All take from the part of BDSM that
We most associate with and just like Our world and
Alternate way of living has evolved thru out time so
to has its words and meanings and applications of such
both in real life and online.
That is all..................
such are enigmas!.....JMPO!

< Message edited by MistressDREAD -- 2/5/2005 4:55:19 PM >

(in reply to DeadofKnight)

Post #: 18

RE: The BDSM conundrum. - 2/5/2005 5:30:29 PM

ShadeDiva

Posts: 1005
Joined: 3/31/2004
From: Sacramento, California
Status: offline

I believe in the back of Sexual Majik Pat Califia has her opinion of the term BDSM and what it means, and I know whole sections of communities that do *not* define BDSM as being boindage/discipline/sadism/masochism. Heck I kow people that define BD, DS, and SM as soemthing other than what most folks say is what those initials stand for.

I personally don't see any difference. I use parts and pieces of everythig as best suits me, my partner, our level of playing, and the situation and location.

For me it respresents a grab bag of sorts, and I use it as such, so I don't tend to put that much effort into defining those initials for myself, as I've found they do little for actually aiding conversation or communication in my personal experience.

Just my two cents.

~ShadeDiva

_____________________________

~ShadeDiva
My projects of love:
theFetishForums
HumanFauna
Kinked
DommeWorld

(in reply to MistressDREAD)

Post #: 19

RE: The BDSM conundrum. - 2/5/2005 5:32:25 PM

MistressDREAD

Posts: 2943
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by MistressDREAD -- 2/5/2005 5:40:07 PM >

(in reply to MistressDREAD)

Post #: 20

Page: [1] 2 next > >>

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> The BDSM conundrum.

Page: [1] 2 next > >>

Jump to:

New Messages	No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages	Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages	Locked w/o New Messages

Post New Thread

Reply to Message

Post New Poll

Submit Vote

Delete My Own Post

Delete My Own Thread

Rate Posts

Collarchat.com © 2025

Terms of Service

0.096