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Tracking devices - 11/11/2006 7:47:36 AM   
WyrdRich


Posts: 1733
Joined: 1/3/2005
Status: offline 		       One of the initiatives that passed here in CA has some unsettling aspects.  Jessica's Law, aka Prop 83, requires sex offenders, past and present, to wear GPS monitors at all times.  Another provision restricts them from living within 2000 ft. of schools or parks.  Draw straight lines on a map and it will translate to banishment from the cities.

     One of the things I find troubling here is that it adds new punishments to sentences already served.  Doesn't seem right to set that kind of precedent.  It's already headed into the courts. 

< Message edited by WyrdRich -- 11/11/2006 7:48:45 AM >
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RE: Tracking devices - 11/11/2006 8:53:10 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich

      One of the initiatives that passed here in CA has some unsettling aspects.  Jessica's Law, aka Prop 83, requires sex offenders, past and present, to wear GPS monitors at all times.  Another provision restricts them from living within 2000 ft. of schools or parks.  Draw straight lines on a map and it will translate to banishment from the cities.

    One of the things I find troubling here is that it adds new punishments to sentences already served.  Doesn't seem right to set that kind of precedent.  It's already headed into the courts. 



WyrdRich:
Another troubling aspect of this is how easy it is to be tagged as a sex offender.
Take the example of a couple of hi school lovers one of which turns 18 before the other.  If the parents of the underage member choose they can have him arrested for statutory rape. 
It would seem that by this new law he would not be allowed to finish hi school or go to college because he can't be within 2000 feet of a school.  Of course he will wear the lable of child molesting sex offender for the rest of his life, in addition to the gps tracker.

thompson

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RE: Tracking devices - 11/11/2006 9:09:09 AM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich

      One of the initiatives that passed here in CA has some unsettling aspects.  Jessica's Law, aka Prop 83, requires sex offenders, past and present, to wear GPS monitors at all times.  Another provision restricts them from living within 2000 ft. of schools or parks.  Draw straight lines on a map and it will translate to banishment from the cities.

    One of the things I find troubling here is that it adds new punishments to sentences already served.  Doesn't seem right to set that kind of precedent.  It's already headed into the courts. 


Hello A/all,

I am not saying I am in support of or opposition to this law, WyrdRich, although I can understand why it was proposed.  It goes back to the nature of the sexual predator.  Our criminal justice system is based on the premise (not sure it actually works that way, but that is a different thread) that a person commits a crime, gets convicted, serves a prison sentence to reform them back over from the Dark Side, and rejoins society as a changed individual who only uses their powers for Good.

A sexual predator, by and large, is not treatable or reformable.  Take the crime of rape, for example.  The average rapist rapes 7 times before he is caught and convicted.  He serves an average of 4 years.  He rapes again within 6 months of his release from prison.

Child molestors, by and large, follow this same pattern.  So what ends up happening is the need to protect children from a known menace.  I would tend to consider sexual predation and child molestation as being less of a criminal act and more an expression of mental illness.  The only thing which will 100% cure a person of being a sexual predator involves surgical or medical castration.

Mistakes happen, people get wrongfully convicted, etc., so I have very mixed feelings about this law as well.  It does cross over the line to where a determination has to be made whether a person is a danger to themselves or others.  Who is it more important to protect?

Sinergy


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RE: Tracking devices - 11/11/2006 9:10:33 AM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		There have been several cases in Britain of people being tagged and commiting other offences (not necessarily sex offenders) without the authorities knowing. Resourceful people can get around tags, they are not fool proof. The problem is the authorities only know of the people who eventually got caught and no one knows how many offenders are using tags as an alibi.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 11/11/2006 9:11:05 AM >

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RE: Tracking devices - 11/11/2006 9:16:55 AM   
Level


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Status: offline 		Should sex offenders stay in prison for life? I'm thinking so, but that would not address those already sentenced.

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RE: Tracking devices - 11/11/2006 9:21:12 AM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

Should sex offenders stay in prison for life? I'm thinking so, but that would not address those already sentenced.


Hello A/all,

To me, that is increasing their sentence and making it cruel and unusual.

I would suggest reclassifying sexual predation as a mental disorder and locking them up in the loony bin until the board of examining psychiatrists determines they are no longer a threat to society.

Just me, etc.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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RE: Tracking devices - 11/11/2006 9:59:46 AM   
HollyS


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

Should sex offenders stay in prison for life? I'm thinking so, but that would not address those already sentenced.
  To me, that is increasing their sentence and making it cruel and unusual.

I would suggest reclassifying sexual predation as a mental disorder and locking them up in the loony bin until the board of examining psychiatrists determines they are no longer a threat to society. 


Sexual predation is a mental disorder, just depends on how you classify it (usually classified in terms of the victim, such as pedophilia or even Sexual Disorder NOS).  However, neither of these "solutions" actually deals with the problem of chronic sex-offenders.  I'm not talking about the 19 yr old with his 15 yr old girlfriend -- I'm talking about the habitual offender who repeatedly goes after children or adults for reasons that have nothing to do with the victim and everything to do with satisfying one's sexual/power urges.

It's a fact that 10% of all sex offenders are responsible for some 85% of all sex-related crimes.  And the sad reality is that in spite of years of research and millions of dollars, we still have no way to effectively treat these people.  Chronic sex offenders (this 10%) are the one category of predator that we know will offend again given the opportunity.  And we have no idea what to do with them once their sentences are served. 

This is why there are civil committment laws, which allow a state prosecutor to look at an offender who's served his time and say "We can't let this person out for the good of society."  It's done after extensive psychological testing and therapy, so no one should think this is an easy thing to do.  In the end, though, all we're doing is warehousing people in an effort to keep them away from society because we have no other way of dealing with them.  Is this what we want?

Incarceration is incarceration, be it in prison or in a mental hospital.  If someone can come up with a better solution for what to do with the hard-core sex offender population, please let me know. I've a long line of people who work in prisons and halfway houses with this population who'd love to hear the answer.

~Holly


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RE: Tracking devices - 11/11/2006 10:27:42 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HollyS


It's a fact that 10% of all sex offenders are responsible for some 85% of all sex-related crimes.  And the sad reality is that in spite of years of research and millions of dollars, we still have no way to effectively treat these people.  Chronic sex offenders (this 10%) are the one category of predator that we know will offend again given the opportunity.  And we have no idea what to do with them once their sentences are served. 



No one (or at least very few) would say you could cure homosexuality so why would there be a cure for peadophilia or other sexual preference be it predatory or not? It is society that defines these conditions, not nature and if that is the case, then we aren't going to find a cure because there isn't one.

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RE: Tracking devices - 11/11/2006 10:29:52 AM   
popeye1250


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From: New Hampshire
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Child molestors should probably be executed.
If they can't be cured how can we let them loose? Ever?
If I had a child who was molested by one of these monsters they would be executed.
By me.

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RE: Tracking devices - 11/11/2006 11:01:17 AM   
WyrdRich


Posts: 1733
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Status: offline 		       I would certainly support making repeat offenses subject to life imprisonment and the death penalty (or first offenses that are heinous enough). 

       I think the first thing we need to do though is take a long hard look at exactly who the high-risk offenders are, and get the guys busted for streaking a football game 30 years ago off the list.

    

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RE: Tracking devices - 11/11/2006 11:02:14 AM   
untamedshysub


Posts: 220
Joined: 2/26/2005
Status: offline 		as a survior of a sexual predator the scars never go away they steal your life your childhood your ability to trust, having to wear a device to know where they are at all times is a small price to pay for the damage they can and have caused. just this subs humble opinion

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RE: Tracking devices - 11/11/2006 12:00:31 PM   
PrimitiveLogic


Posts: 145
Joined: 4/25/2006
From: Md.
Status: offline 		Having worked of 8 yrs at Hopkins Forensic Sexual Disorders unit in the 80's...there is no cure nor dissuasion from  their  needs. Just as we here speak of never going back to vanilla...multiply that essence of difference a thousand times, and you might get close to a sex offender's level of need. We sought to evaluate them from 3 primary focuses: are they a bad person doing bad things...like a bank robber. Are they doing this as a result of a mental disorder such as auditory hallucinations commanding them or hypersexual mania? Or is this from a bio- chemical abnormality...the too much testosterone thing. Or is it a combination of them...or is it just their sexuality, drive and focus?
It really doesn't matter...we found you can't make someone change once deep patterns of thought and behavior developed.  We had someone  slip away from an outpatient group, steal a labcoat and got caught  fondling pediatric oncology patients... Sounds like death penalty to me. I strongly believe in death penalty for sexual predators...especially when it comes to children molestation. There is no amount of sugar coating fantasy that can undo the seriousness of what we call the sequealea of events...what comes after. Just look at the tv shows of catching a sex predator...is there any sense of internal control before being revealed/caught... Most offenders are serial offenders...it is an insatiable hunger. 
Now... let us look at ourselves here...the depths of hunger desire and need...is it any different?  It's all relative. deep seated and part of our identity. Age appropriateness helps. Consensuality helps. Safe and sane...that is in the minds of the doers and being done to's.  My views are deeply and continually flavored by treating things gone badly. In therapist circles, we speak of anyone being able to open an emotional can of worms....but how many can scoop them up and leave the person in a positive state for the next session? Same here...almost anyone can open another's need and desire...how many  leave their significant other in a positive place  afterward?
Back to the topic.... 
I don't feel the need to suppport someone in prison..quick death penalty for henious and serial offenses.
Thanks for activting my 'grim reaper' gene.

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RE: Tracking devices - 11/11/2006 12:18:11 PM   
WyrdRich


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PrimitiveLogic

Thanks for activting my 'grim reaper' gene.




       It's not always a bad thing.  We put on our 'cold blooded, pragmatic bastard' hats, brainstorm a bit, sometimes you wind up with better answers than when we all play 'PC.'

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RE: Tracking devices - 11/11/2006 12:24:58 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PrimitiveLogic

I strongly believe in death penalty for sexual predators...especially when it comes to children molestation.


The problem is that if you execute sexual predators you had better find a more efficient way of processing them through the court system and killing them such is their numbers. How about gas chambers? That should cope with the numbers involved. There are going to be an awful lot of orphans too.

Now I haven't a clue what can be done other than incarceration but executing them seems a mighty fine way to create an awful lot of miscarriages of justice such is the uncertainty sometimes in this field that a crime as actually been committed. If execution was the order of the day, I can think of at least twenty five people who would have been executed who were later declared innocent and that is without thinking hard.

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RE: Tracking devices - 11/11/2006 12:33:05 PM   
PrimitiveLogic


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From: Md.
Status: offline 		As I said, serial and henious...irrefutable evidence should ironclad in sentencing.  Of course there are  and will be miscarriages of justice...

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RE: Tracking devices - 11/11/2006 12:35:45 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		When I worked in the criminal justice system in Britain I was aware of three cases where a rapist was imprisoned and later cleared because 1. one woman later admitted lying because she was pregnant and feared what her parents would say 2. Two were found to have purjured. Now I'm not at all suggesting these cases are anything but a very small minority but if it is you going to the chair or gas chamber or whatever, you would probably reconsider your opinion.

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RE: Tracking devices - 11/11/2006 12:47:43 PM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Sinergy is (as usual) correct; it is not about punishing these people over again, it is about protecting society from them.

From my understanding of them, punishing them has no effect at all; their behaviours and desires are integral to them, and one cannot convince them they have done wrong, because as far as they are concerned, they have simply acted according to their nature. Neither can they be reformed by way of cure, for none exists. (Although the French are currently trialling chemical castration, I believe - which if it proves successful in preventing future offences, will be a valuable tool).

Tagging them however is not a solution; tags can be avoided, and in the absence of sufficient police officers to deal with such avoidance (as we have in the UK), they are worthless as a means of control. The offender has already offended by the time the police arrive. Tagging requires the active participation of the very person whom it seeks to control, and in the case of sexual abusers, such active participation is by no means certain when desire meets temptation.

Execution is also not a humane way of dealing with these people. OK, I acknowledge and would agree that they have, if we for a moment accept their acts as wilful criminality, abdicated their rights in this direction. However, they have not acted in a wilful criminal manner - they have acted as is according to their nature. We would therefore be executing people for who they are, rather than for what they have done. It also ushers in the very possible reality that any young person exhibiting symptomatic behaviour, might receive prejudicial treatment in order to prevent a possible first offence. We ourselves must also be careful of such regulations, as they could easily be adapted to deal with all "abusive sexual behaviour", which could include bdsm, since the law does not recognise any power to agree to an offence, and much of what occurs in consensual bdsm constitute offences under the law. It also drags in a host of young people who indulge in consenting sexual behaviour, under the age of sexual consent - are we prepared to have our sons and daughters executed as sexual predators for having sex under age? For such would be the result of such a law.

The only realistic solution which protects society as is intended, is to keep these people segregated from the general population. Psychiatric wards are a possibility of course - but then, if there is no effective treatment, this is an expensive and pointless exercise. Prison is a possibility, but then such incarceration for life would constitute an unbalanced sentence in many cases; one size does not fit all.

What then of setting aside an island, where these people could be deposited to live? This protects general society and allows these people to live as free as is possible for them in consideration of the need for protection from them.
E






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RE: Tracking devices - 11/11/2006 1:07:21 PM   
gooddogbenji


Posts: 5094
Joined: 11/15/2005
From: Toronto
Status: offline 		Different perspective, which others have touched on, and I have probably stated before.

Age of consent in Canada is 14.  In America, 18.  The idea that a 60 year old is sick for banging a 16 year old in America, but not in Canada, and if she were 2 years older, he would be healthy, even if she he's only after her because she looks younger, etc....

Paedophilia is a "fashionable" cause.  It's not clear cut where the ethical line is, only the legal. 18 and a day is okay, but no less.  Does a big package of consent get mailed out to everyone? 

And yet, we're willing to tag the 19 year old with the younger girlfriend for life, but not the 45 year old with the 19 year old?

What if the religious nuts manage to ban homosexuality?  Would we support gay people having to wear GPS devices?  And what of our own creed, violent sexual deviances.  I mean, the videos have been banned in England, how far away from it are we?

Execute 'em all, I say!

Yours,


benji

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RE: Tracking devices - 11/11/2006 1:32:46 PM   
MstrDouglas


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Status: offline 		benji, you need to check a little deeper as to age of consent here in the US.  most states here still have it at 16, and some southern states are as low as 14.  The legal  age here is 18, for everything except buying alcohol that is, they can vote and enter into contracts but arent responsible enough for that right.  Just wanted to set the record straight.

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RE: Tracking devices - 11/11/2006 1:39:11 PM   
gooddogbenji


Posts: 5094
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From: Toronto
Status: offline 		So when can I legally do the humpy humpy with someone and describe it on this site?

Yours,


benji

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