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Punishment vs Pleasure - 11/11/2006 5:26:25 PM

BootBlackBlast

Posts: 378
Joined: 10/23/2006
Status: offline

Hello all,

Thought I'd throw this out there. My girlfriend, (to whom I regularly top), and I were talking in bed the other day about punishment and pleasure and we have come to an interesting impasse. I'm sure it is one that many others have been in before as well. My girlfriend likes to be flogged and also beaten with my mini-tail so much so that she acts out just to receive the punishment. So, I did what naturally any domme would do and changed her punishment to spanking which she did not like nearly as much. In our debriefing she stated that she enjoyed having a punishment that actually punished her in the spanking but that she missed the arousal she got being flogged. So, we talked about using the floggings as a reward and then tried it. On the second occasion she was better able to communicate to me that while she enjoyed the floggings she missed the idea and notion that she was in some way being punished. So, the big question is how do I give this to her as she desires and I wish to give her without her being disobedient and acting out for it? Does this make any sense to anyone but us?

_____________________________

Leather Rubbin and Dubbin

Bootblack Blast
Mama's Blast

Post #: 1

RE: Punishment vs Pleasure - 11/11/2006 6:11:43 PM

captiveprincess

Posts: 17
Joined: 3/15/2006
Status: offline

Well, i'm not a Domme but i'm going to give You my opinion as a submissive. If she is acting out in order to get a punishment from You, then what You are giving her is not a punishment. If she enjoys it, then it's not punishment, it's pleasure. And that's the last thing You want to give as a punishment, because a punishment should be something that she doesn't like in order to dissuade bad behavior. My suggestion would be to use the floggings, beatings, and spankings for pleasure as a reward for good behavior since these are things that she enjoys and find something totally unrelated for punishment. The most effective punishement that has been used on me is a time-out where i am not allowed to be in the company of M'Lady for a set period of time or however works best for the two of Y/you. By acting out, she is saying that she wants attention, so to punish her You should give her the opposite of what she wants, which would be no attention. I've also heard of some Doms that have their subs kneel on rice as a punishment or eat some type of food that they totally despise.

Lady K's collared submissive,
~shelly

_____________________________

"I believe that in the heart of each human being there is something which I can only describe as a "child of darkness" who is equal and complementary to the more obvious "child of light" ~Laurens van der Post

(in reply to BootBlackBlast)

Post #: 2

RE: Punishment vs Pleasure - 11/11/2006 6:18:51 PM

DiurnalVampire

Posts: 8125
Joined: 1/19/2006
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline

She has to liv with the idea that acting out to get an activity she enjoys is not going to make the relationship workable. Perhaps, if you wish to compromise a bit and give her her floggings and still have the sense of being punished, you could play into the "being naughty" bit instead of needing to punish an actual offense. In my relationship, theres a major difference between getting put over my knee to be spanked for being a naughty boy and being punished for being bad. Outline the "naughty" activities, making sure they are ones you dont mind her actualy getting into when she wants the attention. The ones I use are usualy sharing sexual thoughts without permission, and getting his girl-clothes dirty. There are others, but you get the idea. Those are punishable by a spanking, which is still a punishment, but erotic none the less. Acting out, and actual misbehaving has its own punishment, and he has not been brave enough to find out if I have more than one of those.

Hope that helps.
DV

_____________________________

I will be your Dominate if you will be my submit - Fox

Snarko Ergo Sum
If you cannot change your mind, how are you so sure you still have one? -proverb

*Owner of Fox - collared 10/13/07*
VampiresLair

(in reply to captiveprincess)

Post #: 3

RE: Punishment vs Pleasure - 11/11/2006 6:20:50 PM

BootBlackBlast

Posts: 378
Joined: 10/23/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: captiveprincess

Well, i'm not a Domme but i'm going to give You my opinion as a submissive. If she is acting out in order to get a punishment from You, then what You are giving her is not a punishment. If she enjoys it, then it's not punishment, it's pleasure. And that's the last thing You want to give as a punishment, because a punishment should be something that she doesn't like in order to dissuade bad behavior. My suggestion would be to use the floggings, beatings, and spankings for pleasure as a reward for good behavior since these are things that she enjoys and find something totally unrelated for punishment. The most effective punishement that has been used on me is a time-out where i am not allowed to be in the company of M'Lady for a set period of time or however works best for the two of Y/you. By acting out, she is saying that she wants attention, so to punish her You should give her the opposite of what she wants, which would be no attention. I've also heard of some Doms that have their subs kneel on rice as a punishment or eat some type of food that they totally despise.

Lady K's collared submissive,
~shelly

Well the spankings are working as punishment right now, it the floggings i'm not sure what to do with. She really wants the floggings but also wants to feel as though she is being punished. It arouses her even more. In my relationship with her it is less about serious punishment than it is play. My little sissy boy sub would not receive the leniency.

_____________________________

Leather Rubbin and Dubbin

Bootblack Blast
Mama's Blast

(in reply to captiveprincess)

Post #: 4

RE: Punishment vs Pleasure - 11/11/2006 6:25:46 PM

Jeniluscious

Posts: 53
Joined: 9/11/2005
From: Detroit metro
Status: offline

Sure there's a way around this... roleplay.

Set up a time, apart from "real" life and give her impossible tasks... ones that she really can attempt to achieve, but outside a miracle will not be able to achieve. Keep a "list"; give her demerits or black marks or whatever you want to call it. Every time she can't accomplish it, she gets a mark. After x amount of time, punish her. If she likes verbalisation, then go for it.

But be light, be fun. You, especially, have to remember that this is a RP scenario and not really the way it is. That's the point of the impossible tasks.. like, I live in Detroit metro... while it's really cold out (sorta), there's no snow yet. I'd send her out to get me a snowball... probably without a jacket, to make the time outside to "find" it shorter. Oh! No snowball? Well, that's THREE marks in the Big Black Evil Book of Evil Black Evilness (which is actually a hot pink Happy Bunny spiral; I have a really sick sense of humour).

I get what she's looking for... she wants the deliciousness of the "naughty girl being punished" thing which is much hotter than just a flogging.

I really hope I'm being clear; it was in my head.

Regards,

Jeni

(in reply to BootBlackBlast)

Post #: 5

RE: Punishment vs Pleasure - 11/11/2006 7:01:20 PM

MsKatHouston

Posts: 1909
Joined: 6/7/2006
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline

What Jeni said was exactly what I was going to say. I second that advice :)

_____________________________

-Kat

~If you can't be a good example, you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning~

(in reply to Jeniluscious)

Post #: 6

RE: Punishment vs Pleasure - 11/11/2006 7:02:25 PM

MistressDolly

Posts: 917
Joined: 8/24/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BootBlackBlast

quote:

ORIGINAL: captiveprincess

Well, i'm not a Domme but i'm going to give You my opinion as a submissive. If she is acting out in order to get a punishment from You, then what You are giving her is not a punishment. If she enjoys it, then it's not punishment, it's pleasure. And that's the last thing You want to give as a punishment, because a punishment should be something that she doesn't like in order to dissuade bad behavior. My suggestion would be to use the floggings, beatings, and spankings for pleasure as a reward for good behavior since these are things that she enjoys and find something totally unrelated for punishment. The most effective punishement that has been used on me is a time-out where i am not allowed to be in the company of M'Lady for a set period of time or however works best for the two of Y/you. By acting out, she is saying that she wants attention, so to punish her You should give her the opposite of what she wants, which would be no attention. I've also heard of some Doms that have their subs kneel on rice as a punishment or eat some type of food that they totally despise.

Lady K's collared submissive,
~shelly

Well the spankings are working as punishment right now, it the floggings i'm not sure what to do with. She really wants the floggings but also wants to feel as though she is being punished. It arouses her even more. In my relationship with her it is less about serious punishment than it is play. My little sissy boy sub would not receive the leniency.

You need a punishment which arouses her yet punishes her severely enough so that she doesnt end up acting out to get it. She's turned on by flogging? Well give the flogging to her as a punishment but increase the intensity and severity such that she'll love and dread it at the same time. What a harmonious balance.

(in reply to BootBlackBlast)

Post #: 7

RE: Punishment vs Pleasure - 11/12/2006 11:47:16 AM

Celeste43

Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
Status: offline

He said very clearly that I was not to act out to get a spanking. If I want one, I should ask. If he has time then, he usually will and if he doesn't, he still knows I'm in need of one and will get to it when he can. Instead of her having to earn a flogging, why not just include it a couple of times a week simply because you know she enjoys it and you want her all turned on.

(in reply to MistressDolly)

Post #: 8

RE: Punishment vs Pleasure - 11/12/2006 12:05:01 PM

LadyHugs

Posts: 2299
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

Dear BootBlackBlast, Ladies and Gentlemen;

In my mind's eye, acting out is only manipulation on that party's part. Topping from the bottom, controlling from the bottom is how I see manipulation.

Manipulation, in my mind's eye; is being afraid to ask for something for fear of being denied it. Remove the fear, removes the need for the manipulation however, those who are control freaks will find other means to keep control. Manipulation in my mind's eye is also, taking your focus away on others/other things, as to pay attention to them. An over dose of attention the way they don't wish it, sometimes breaks the cycle.

That said, for my mind's eye I see; the slave/submissive who craves touch, sensation or use of tools on them, are denied them in punishment. I don't like mixing pleasure/pain for both fun scenes and punishment. I like a very clear line, so there is no mental doubt as to what is happening.

Scenes can be created to fit into the need of 'discipline/corporal' and the mental dialog that it is punishment, the martyr/sacrifice within taking punishment turns into arrousal.

Communication is the best keys to success. However, in my mind's eye as a Dominant, any manipulation as to cause reaction on my part that is negative and or draining, is something I will have little tolerance for. Reminds me of bratty children with bad manners.

Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs

(in reply to BootBlackBlast)

Post #: 9

RE: Punishment vs Pleasure - 11/12/2006 12:09:53 PM

LadyHugs

Posts: 2299
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

Dear BootBlackBlast, Ladies and Gentlemen;

I forgot to add, that punishment isn't suppose to be fun or for arrousal.
It is to be anything but.

Now, the pain for arrousal is on the masochistic grain, when there is a tit for tat, back and forth element. In addition, anger in a TOP will aid in giving more power into the strokes. Just like fear, the adreniline push will enhance your strength but, its short lived.

Might not realize what she is doing and, then again she just might know indeed how much 'emotion' plays a part into the framework of strength.

Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs

(in reply to LadyHugs)

Post #: 10

RE: Punishment vs Pleasure - 11/13/2006 10:16:10 AM

BootBlackBlast

Posts: 378
Joined: 10/23/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DiurnalVampire

Outline the "naughty" activities, making sure they are ones you dont mind her actualy getting into when she wants the attention. The ones I use are usualy sharing sexual thoughts without permission, and getting his girl-clothes dirty. There are others, but you get the idea. Those are punishable by a spanking, which is still a punishment, but erotic none the less. Acting out, and actual misbehaving has its own punishment, and he has not been brave enough to find out if I have more than one of those.

Hope that helps.
DV

DV, I like the sound of this. We'll try it in conjunction with Jeniluscious's impossible tasks list. Last night she had to make my soup and sandwich in less than 5 minutes. Earning demerits and bonus points for different aspects. 3 demerits for being late with dinner 1 bonus point for asking if I'd like my sandwich cut it half. Seems to be working very well so far. Thank you all for the help.

Lady Hugs,

While the advice you gave is good in this case you missed the point. The actual punishment she receives is through spanking b/c she hates it. The flogging started out as play but she likes the idea that she's being naughty to get it. I understand where you are coming from but it is a bit more serious and a bit more 24/7 or extreme lifestyle than we use. It is a similiar philosophy to what I use with my boy, but not with my partner.

_____________________________

Leather Rubbin and Dubbin

Bootblack Blast
Mama's Blast

(in reply to DiurnalVampire)

Post #: 11

RE: Punishment vs Pleasure - 11/13/2006 2:17:23 PM

MisPandora

Posts: 2911
Joined: 4/7/2004
From: Philadelphia, PA
Status: offline

(Advice from Mama's Paramedic deleted because I failed to read that this is a game between OP and bottom, and not a lifestyle situation where they were asking for actual advice on how to fix said untoward condition. My bad.)

< Message edited by MisPandora -- 11/13/2006 2:23:00 PM >

_____________________________

Pandora
Ms World Leather 2004
Ms Philadelphia Leather 2004

"Simply put, if you want a real femdom to love you, give her reasons to love you." Gloria Brame

(in reply to BootBlackBlast)

Post #: 12

RE: Punishment vs Pleasure - 11/13/2006 2:28:31 PM

MrrPete

Posts: 614
Joined: 11/7/2005
Status: offline

Topping from the bottom is behavior that, to me, is not acceptable. I don't like being manipulated.

If you like being manipulated have at it.

Corporal punisment for a pain slut masochist is NOT punishment.

I rarely use corporal punisment.

Her explanations are manipulative. she's still topping from the bottom to get you to do it HER way.

_____________________________

Awrabest,

Mr. Pete

Boycott Citgo

(in reply to BootBlackBlast)

Post #: 13

RE: Punishment vs Pleasure - 11/13/2006 8:42:54 PM

MasterFireMaam

Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline

Plan a "scene" where you role play. she gets to be the bad girl and you get to be the principle or something.

Master Fire

_____________________________

The power of who we are can be intoxicating. The power of who we could be is humbling.
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Ms Relationship Books
-----
BDSM How-To Books

(in reply to BootBlackBlast)

Post #: 14

RE: Punishment vs Pleasure - 11/14/2006 12:02:41 AM

BootBlackBlast

Posts: 378
Joined: 10/23/2006
Status: offline

Mama's Paramedic need not apologize as Mama's Blast very much values and trusts Mama's Paramedic. She is good and wise. Her years serving on the streets in the bus as I have done make her my sister not just in Mama's Family but in the brotherhood of EMS and Fire Service. Mama's Blast will get her pin this weekend at Russian River Leather Weekend. But Mama's Blast almost was Mama's Firefighter/EMT but that's just too long. Mistress Pandora need know however that Mama's Blast is working on a proposal for the producers of Ms. and Mr. World Leather to include a Bootblack competition as well. Mama's Blast was very please to see that Mistress Pandora chose organ donation as her platform. Mama's Blast was going to be an altruistic kidney donor but the Doctor said Mama's Blast needs to lose at least 100lbs first. (Why are we talking in the 3rd person?)

Now back to our regularly scheduled post...

It's not about manipulation. If you had read the OP this is not a lifestyle relationship, this is about giving my partner what she wants because I love her. If she wants to be flogged and feel like she's being punished for being naughty then that she will get. If she is truely out of line and needs an actual punishment she will get it. Whether it is a spanking or the risk of losing the love of her life. Some of the other ideas presented earlier I believe will work. Master Fire I will also try your roleplay idea, I have read your house manual in detail and I fully respect and value your opinion.

Mrr Pete,

She is not a pain slut masochist, she simply likes to give me what i enjoy as well. She likes to submit to me because of the stress in her everyday life of having to support me at the moment. She likes to give herself over to me and go into the headspace where she doesn't want to make any decisions, think about our financial problems, look in my refrigerator and wonder what I'm going to eat if we can't come up with the money to fill it and so on. It isn't corporal punishment, she isn't getting flogged because she was bad, she's getting flogged because i like flogging her. However, she doesn't really like the idea of it being a reward so we are trying to find a way around that which was the reason for the OP.

_____________________________

Leather Rubbin and Dubbin

Bootblack Blast
Mama's Blast

(in reply to MasterFireMaam)

Post #: 15

RE: Punishment vs Pleasure - 11/14/2006 7:03:39 AM

demistress

Posts: 391
Joined: 4/24/2006
From: Dela-where?
Status: offline

Possibly implement the floggings as a "discipline" exercise. "I am flogging you to ensure that you behave today. This flogging is being done to focus your mind, and bringin you into the proper place, so that you can be the good little girl I know you are. I know if we don't flog you today, you may be tempted to ... blah blah" :)

This is a strategy I have implemented with my slavegirl who is in a similar situation.

_____________________________

Mistress Heather
www.niteflirt.com/MizzSpice

Wether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right!

(in reply to BootBlackBlast)

Post #: 16

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