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Submission = self-denial? - 11/12/2006 9:11:10 PM   
HollyS


Posts: 230
Joined: 1/5/2006
Status: offline 		Alright, this is something that's been on my mind today.  Yesterday Sir and I were able to spend the whole day together, an uncommon treat for us.  For part of the day he wrapped me in colored saran wrap like a giant present, which was a first for me.  I could barely move and was very aware that I wasn't able to "do" much of anything. He had to do all of the work for the rest of the afternoon, presenting a real challenge for a service-oriented person like me (to simply let things happen around me without being active). We took a long time and the experience was wonderful for us both - he said he enjoyed it very much and so did I.  But afterwards I was slightly bothered... because I liked it so much. 

Enjoying being passive and having him do all the work is running smack into my service wall.  And beyond that, I have this annoying mental block where liking something must mean that I'm not really being submissive.  If I'm enjoying what's happening, am I really submitting to it?  Does submission only happen when there's a possibility that under more vanilla circumstances you would say "no"? 

I understand that self-denial is a trait often found in submissive people (not all, of course), and those who have it often connect with a Dominant person who enjoys being on the receiving end of care and attention... I get all that.  This is just a new wrinkle on it for me as part of the dynamic -- that pleasure without some internal struggle or conflict means diminishing one's submission.  I know how it sounds, really.  My rational brain tells me I'm full of it and this is the silliest thing it's ever heard... my gut just happens to disagree.

Thoughts would be very welcome.  Thanks in advance.

~Holly

_____________________________

I wish my lawn were emo, so it would cut itself.
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RE: Submission = self-denial? - 11/12/2006 9:25:59 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline 		I don't see how enjoying it takes the element of submission from it. My dominant perfers to not have me do things that I don't enjoy because he doesn't enjoy making me do things I dislike. However, he will tell me to do things that I don't like for my own good and I will do them because of I submit to him. Your dominant was pleased with what happened so you made him happy and in this happy you serviced him, try to think of it like that.

(in reply to HollyS)
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RE: Submission = self-denial? - 11/12/2006 10:24:54 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline 		Holly,

Sometimes it's hard to embrace the notion that service is best performed as your dominant directs and not as you believe it should be and that includes those times when it's 'his' desire that you should be pleased and/or have pleasure yourself.

I've so been there! When he used to get up to get himself a cup of coffee or a soda I felt as if that was "MY" job and he was preventing me from doing it! How dare he!! ::laughs::

Well, doh on me.. 'my' job is to serve as he wants me to serve, period so that's how he 'dared'.

I got it.. took a while, but I got it. If you want, you'll get it too.. eventually.

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to HollyS)
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RE: Submission = self-denial? - 11/12/2006 10:45:44 PM   
slave4theOne


Posts: 10
Joined: 2/10/2006
Status: offline 		This is my first time in the forums, but i happened to come accross Celeste's response and it really hit home for me. i mean, when i've been asked to do things, i've never considered how He wants me to do it, i just do it the best way that i know of. i am noticing now that my way of doing something isn't always the same as Master's and trying to do it a different way now is tough for me. guess it's like teaching an old dog new tircks, sometimes takes a while to sink in.

~myste

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RE: Submission = self-denial? - 11/12/2006 11:45:10 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		Holly, I've thought that before, too.  When he binds me up with rope, etc., the process can take awhile, and I think wow, he's doing all the work and here I am....well, just here!

BUT....I started feeling differently about it.

It is relaxing and almost meditative for him to go through the methodical yet creative process of binding me.  He enjoys it.  He also enjoys admiring the "finished product."  As for me, I feel like this object - a toy if you will - being perfectly still as he amuses himself with me.  I go into almost a trance just watching him as he is so close to me. I breathe deeply, to inhale him (God I love his scent).  I listen to him breathe. I feel the warmth of his body so close to mine. Sometimes we murmer to each other, but often it is totally silent, and our energies seem to meet and meld together.

He loves the space this puts me in.  It gives him pleasure to elicit such a response. This is just what he wants of me.  Doing anything else (ie; "Here, Master, let me just get that loop for ya.") would be interfering with his process and with his enjoyment.  I am there for his amusement.  The added benefit is that I get to enjoy it, too. 

(in reply to HollyS)
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RE: Submission = self-denial? - 11/13/2006 1:29:33 AM   
Sirandlittle1


Posts: 538
Joined: 12/22/2005
Status: offline 		Welcome to the wonderful world of bdsm.
Sometimes, we do 'things' that arent strictly D/s. We do them for fun, because we can. ANYONE who cant get on that pleasure trip, is gonna be a rather dull life partner i reckon.
So personally, so bloody what if its not 'slave like' in your head, or submissive like, if you two dont, we wont mind.
or
He has told you what to do, why are you wasting air time, on wondering if its right or not?
little one

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
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RE: Submission = self-denial? - 11/13/2006 4:34:41 AM   
kyraofMists


Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline 		Great topic Holly.

I see this often, that submissives get themselves into what I consider to be traps by defining submission in certain ways.  I see so many define submission by their feelings or certain sets of behaviors.  Then they start to question their submissiveness when they don't feel that way or do not get to perform those behaviors.  Your thread is a perfect example of that.  I hear you say that submission is about self-denial or not enjoying what is happening and that a submissive does all the work.  Yesterday, you didn't do all the work and you enjoyed it and now you wonder am I less of a submissive.

I did this for a time with other things and then I realised that submission is about obedience, obedience to his will.  My feelings about it and the actual tasks that I do are irrelevant.  As long as I am being obedient to his will then I am submitting to him.  Getting down to the basics of submission stopped me from questioning my identity.  I obey him so I am submissive to him.

Kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to HollyS)
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RE: Submission = self-denial? - 11/13/2006 5:23:47 AM   
leatherzack


Posts: 59
Joined: 7/13/2005
Status: offline 		i agree with all that has been said.

For me, as a submissive, my goal is to please my Owner in the way She decides. And if what she decides please me, then it is even greater, but it doesn't change my level of submission.

(in reply to kyraofMists)
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RE: Submission = self-denial? - 11/13/2006 5:44:44 AM   
imtempting


Posts: 1280
Joined: 2/11/2005
Status: offline 		I did quick reply too.

If you don't find enjoyment in your activities then why be in the lifestyle?

The dominant is happy to tie you up etc, he wants to see how it looks as much as you. The only time I see your not meant to enjoy being tied or whatever is if it is a punishment or something the dominant love's and you do not, but saying that you should really tell your dominant partner as the majority are not down right arsehols or bit*hs and want you to not enjoy the bdsm side of it.

You do not just serve because you love to obey, you also enjoy the bdsm. You crave it as much as the DS. Well most people do, their are always exception to the rules which being this is my post we will surly have plenty of people pointing this out to proove me wrong to try to win some futile mind game which I do not care about.

(in reply to leatherzack)
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RE: Submission = self-denial? - 11/13/2006 6:56:23 AM   
sweetnurseBBW


Posts: 2464
Joined: 1/26/2006
From: North Carolina
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists


I did this for a time with other things and then I realised that submission is about obedience, obedience to his will.  My feelings about it and the actual tasks that I do are irrelevant.  As long as I am being obedient to his will then I am submitting to him.  Getting down to the basics of submission stopped me from questioning my identity.  I obey him so I am submissive to him.

Kyra


Very well said. I also think my submission is about being obediant. If I am doing his will than I am being submissive to him.

_____________________________

Sir Pain's pain slut

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RE: Submission = self-denial? - 11/13/2006 8:11:33 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		One of the hardest things to let go control over is control over receiving pleasure from others.

And yes, FAR too many subs equate submission to martyrdom and denial- even to the point of saying if you are liking it, then you aren't submitting!!

One hopes eventually they break out of these false walls and learn to just be happy with both the gift of giving and the gift of receiving pleasure and enjoying life together.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to sweetnurseBBW)
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RE: Submission = self-denial? - 11/13/2006 8:34:10 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		When I first began thinking about Ds and what that meant to me as an individual I came up against these thoughts too. It seemed to be a paradox. Was I really submitting if I enjoyed my submission?

I would ask this, do you get off on the service that you give outside the bedroom? If you are like me then the answer is yes, you enjoy taking care of him, then is that really submitting more than sitting still and being taken care of? I tend to find discomfort in a man getting things for me, doing things for me. Am I not submitting more when I do as i am ordered and sit still and let him do sweet things for me? I used to ask these questions, and I do not anymore...

The reason I have not asked them in a long long time is this: Ds is supposed to be a mutually satisfying lifeway for the people engaging in it. In all relationships there is good and bad, hopefully mostly good and not too much bad. I am supposed to find satisfaction in what I am doing whether it is sitting still or cleaning house or fixing him a drink. It does not mean I will find that satisfying all the time, but it should be more than not.

What you are saying does not sound silly at all, I think that it is easy to internalize a lot of what we have read about submission and how others do it, and how our own dynamic works. It is like this noise running in the background. Other people's opinions can have an impact on us, such as a twue submissive never lets her dom's drink get low, knows exactly what is expected of her at all times, and if she enjoys it too much then who is the dom really? I used to let such ideas impact me... but then I deeply thought about it, even if that is the case in my dynamic are we happy with it? Are our needs being met? Is there growth in our relationship? Is he being himself with me and vice versa? I considered it and thought, other people think things that may have some objective truth or may not, but it does not really matter to me because it does not matter to my Daddy.

It seems like your Sir is the same way from what I have read of him, and what a lucky submissive you are...smiles

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to HollyS)
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RE: Submission = self-denial? - 11/13/2006 9:14:21 AM   
toservez


Posts: 1733
Joined: 9/7/2006
From: All over now in Minnesota
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HollyS

Enjoying being passive and having him do all the work is running smack into my service wall.  And beyond that, I have this annoying mental block where liking something must mean that I'm not really being submissive.  If I'm enjoying what's happening, am I really submitting to it?  Does submission only happen when there's a possibility that under more vanilla circumstances you would say "no"? 



Sounds like you have a couple of issues to work over. First to me the one that kind of jumps off the page is that you are having a hard time accepting that being submissive is suppose to not make you happy. I do not know what to say to get you over this but the thought is just an irrational thought. Lets be honest, if you did not enjoy submitting on what level you do, you would not be submissive or doing it. Embrace your happiness! Being in a good and healthy situation should make you happy and relatively stress free.

The second issue I see is one I also, and I think many others do and that is letting others do things you think you are suppose to be doing. I know I have struggled a lot with this issue. When I feel this happening to me, I concentrate on focusing on what the other person is wanting to do and not trying to think what I normally do. Your other would not have wrapped you up if he had not wanted to and enjoyed you wrapped up probably way more then the things he did that you might normally do. Just concentrate on that aspect. Other people around you enjoy doing things for others and you. Let them enjoy that as well.

One of the big things I stressed when looking for my new Master was finding a person who would not do things for me because he thought I wanted them done. This was huge for me. If they want to cook me dinner or give me flowers that would be great. If they thought I wanted flowers or for them to cook dinner then that would be bad. I think as long as you know your other did things because he wanted to do those things, relax and enjoy!



_____________________________

I am sorry I do not fit Webster's defintion of a slave but thankfully my Master is not Webster.

"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned." - H.H. The 14th Dalai Lama

(in reply to HollyS)
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RE: Submission = self-denial? - 11/13/2006 9:27:05 AM   
HollyS


Posts: 230
Joined: 1/5/2006
Status: offline 		Thanks so much for answering me on this.  I'm going to address both Celeste and Kyra together, since your points are so similar. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

Sometimes it's hard to embrace the notion that service is best performed as your dominant directs and not as you believe it should be and that includes those times when it's 'his' desire that you should be pleased and/or have pleasure yourself.

I've so been there! When he used to get up to get himself a cup of coffee or a soda I felt as if that was "MY" job and he was preventing me from doing it! How dare he!! ::laughs::

Well, doh on me.. 'my' job is to serve as he wants me to serve, period so that's how he 'dared'.

I got it.. took a while, but I got it. If you want, you'll get it too.. eventually.


quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

I see this often, that submissives get themselves into what I consider to be traps by defining submission in certain ways.  I see so many define submission by their feelings or certain sets of behaviors.  Then they start to question their submissiveness when they don't feel that way or do not get to perform those behaviors.  Your thread is a perfect example of that.  I hear you say that submission is about self-denial or not enjoying what is happening and that a submissive does all the work.  Yesterday, you didn't do all the work and you enjoyed it and now you wonder am I less of a submissive.

I did this for a time with other things and then I realised that submission is about obedience, obedience to his will.  My feelings about it and the actual tasks that I do are irrelevant.  As long as I am being obedient to his will then I am submitting to him.  Getting down to the basics of submission stopped me from questioning my identity.  I obey him so I am submissive to him.


I hear what you're both saying, truly I do.  I even understand and totally agree, intellectually, that there things he does purely because he wants to and there's nothing required from me except to just "be there."  The issue isn't one of obedience -- I'm happy to do whatever it is that he asks whenever he asks.  This is purely about me feeling like something is "off" or wrong for enjoying what's happening, even though I know in my head that such thoughts are silly.  It doesn't stop me from obeying...  I don't think he had any idea I thought this way until I said something several hours later. 

Like many people here I'm a product of the way I was trained.  Celeste, you've been gracious enough to post about how what's gone before affects where you are now and kyra, you've mentioned your struggles in learning new ways to serve while with KoM.  In my case, the people who trained me were pretty insistent that pleasure is the province of one's Owner; allowing oneself as an s-type to indulge in enjoying service is a distraction. 

I believe that all of the ways people express their submission can be valid and actively resist any sort of "one-size" or "twue way" definitions.  I'd never hold anyone else to such an obviously flawed idea.  Still, the voices are there -- F. and K. and L. all whispering in my ear -- that I'm doing something terribly wrong and will never understand service because I'm really just in this for myself.  All their lessons on "being in the present" and attentiveness and duty were colored with the dictum that gratification is the realm of "do me bottoms."   Flawed, I know, but there it is.

I appreciate the advice and I'll try harder to focus on my purpose, less on being directly active.  It's probably just a matter of rewiring this stubborn old brain of mine...

Thanks much,

~Holly

_____________________________

I wish my lawn were emo, so it would cut itself.

(in reply to BitaTruble)
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RE: Submission = self-denial? - 11/13/2006 9:56:36 AM   
HollyS


Posts: 230
Joined: 1/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: toservez

First to me the one that kind of jumps off the page is that you are having a hard time accepting that being submissive is suppose to not make you happy.


No, not at all. The way I was trained, service is (read that "should be") it's own reward.  A sub/slave's happiness is supposed to come from being allowed the privilege to serve, not from being the recipient of erotic stimuli.  S-types who take pleasure from specific acts become conditioned to see them as a reward for serving or (god forbid) a tit-for-tat exchange for serving one's Owner.  This makes the ownership dynamic more like a bank where the sub/slave puts in X amount of effort, expecting X amount of return.

It was a year ago this Thanksgiving that I left that environment and I thought I had long given up those rigid ideas of what I was supposed to be...  apparantly, despite my best efforts to be rid of them, some things still linger a bit.

quote:

Other people around you enjoy doing things for others and you. Let them enjoy that as well.


Yes, that's the crux of things, isn't it?  Something for me to work on, clearly...

~Holly

_____________________________

I wish my lawn were emo, so it would cut itself.

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RE: Submission = self-denial? - 11/13/2006 11:05:46 AM   
Celeste43


Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
Status: offline 		He ranks rope work high above spanking but although I love rope, I also adore spankings. So every so often I will make it clear that I want one and then I feel guilty about it. He's very clear that he enjoys watching my response, if not the mechanical hitting so it isn't something that he's suffering through because he wants to meet my needs. It just isn't what comes to mind when we have a couple of hours to play.

We have some pallet wrap somewhere that hasn't been used lately. Now that the weather's cold it would be an excellent idea to pull it out. August is too hot to get that much more sweaty. November is delightful, must repack the toybag and put it on the top so he notices it. Out of sight, out of mind you know.

Plus if you've been stressed lately and he decided this would destress you, that just shows he takes care of you. Bake him a pie to thank him.

(in reply to HollyS)
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RE: Submission = self-denial? - 11/13/2006 1:57:11 PM   
littleone35


Posts: 2828
Joined: 2/17/2005
Status: offline 		Quick reply

If you enjoy it, it is not being less submissive if it pleases him also.  I mean things Master does to me i really enjoy, and once i said to him Master i should be pleasing you and he said what i am doing pleases me.  I am sure your Master would not do things to you he did not enjoy as well.

I do however understand how you feel about being taken care of i love to serve my Master.  Once i sprained my ankle badly and could barely walk Master made me sit down got his own coffee (which i still would have gotton) and iced my ankle.  I like that he loves me and took care of me like that but it felt a little funny.

Matt's littleone

(in reply to Celeste43)
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RE: Submission = self-denial? - 11/13/2006 2:10:16 PM   
MrrPete


Posts: 614
Joined: 11/7/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slave4theOne

This is my first time in the forums, but i happened to come accross Celeste's response and it really hit home for me. i mean, when i've been asked to do things, i've never considered how He wants me to do it, i just do it the best way that i know of. i am noticing now that my way of doing something isn't always the same as Master's and trying to do it a different way now is tough for me. guess it's like teaching an old dog new tircks, sometimes takes a while to sink in.

~myste

This "ol' dog" has no problem learning new tricks. I pick them up quite easily. Wher I
have trouble is remembering how to do them again.:)


_____________________________

Awrabest,

Mr. Pete

Boycott Citgo

(in reply to slave4theOne)
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