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Thoughts on submission - 2/7/2005 6:43:52 PM   
fencerpet19


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Okay, I've been having a very difficult time explaining why submission is not de-humanizing, degrading, wrong, etc. to a few of my vanilla friends. I've tried to explain how liberating it is for me, but can't seem to find the right words. I've gotten lectures on how "women worked so long to be equal with men, how could you just give up all your freedoms to them?" or "A relationship like that could never last because there is so much inequality" I'm sort of the type that needs to get my point across. (It's gotten me into trouble a few times ). So if you could tell me your thoughts on submission, or experiences that help to serve a point. Please share! Thanks a ton!
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RE: Thoughts on submission - 2/7/2005 6:54:01 PM   
nella


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When a littel girl i never liked contests, and i never pushed other kids aound, even if i was far stronger than most of my peers when growing up, i prefered to stand silently, awaiting my turn. To this they i hate displeesing anyone so, to the point of it being a problem, for exaple buying from doorsalsmen. i have goals and ambitions but i am not a pushy person. When i was old enoh to start to think aboute sex, BDSM and submission was what i was thinking aboute from day one, for me it is a natrual state, the explenation? well me being an occultist, and a hopeless romantic would perhaps want to make up a story aboute perhaps having been a slave in a past life, the more sientific explenation, perhaps it is somthing psycological. Bottom line is it is somthing one enyoy doing.

There will aways be pepole that do not understand, and my advice would be to listen respectfully to what they have to say, and then just saying, i feel differently, not everyone need to feel the same as us, or belive the same, it is hard i know, and i have trubbel following my own adice.

My Guide once overheard a group of young girls discussing what to do when school was finished. One of them said, i want to be a housewife and a mother, and she got the same lecture aboute freedom from men. Freedom is aboute making hte choics that make us happy in life, not listening to the crowd, perhaps when your peers see how happy this lifestyle make you they will come to see things for your perspective also. Good luck.

(in reply to fencerpet19)
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RE: Thoughts on submission - 2/7/2005 7:08:03 PM   
ShadeDiva


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Try instead handing them a copy of this book:

When Someone You Love Is Kinky

************************************************


The Reviews:

Styled after the homosexual and bisexual support books for those who love "non-traditional" people, this book is the first of its kind addressing the question of "kinky" or BDSM practicioners and those who love them. The book is best read as it suggests: with at least two readers, the kinky person and the person who loves him/her. The takes care of the not surprising conflicting emotions for those who have discovered a loved one's kinkiness while supporting the kinky person too. My only concerns are that it is could be much larger, but then then I think the purpose is to be general, not definative, and that the language may at times seem patronizing. Both of these concern can, of course, be dealt with by reading it together. Overall, an excellent way to start talking to those you love and to stop hiding.

************************************************


One of the hardest things about being "kinky" is trying to find a way to tell your friends, relatives, lovers, etc about your "alternative lifestyle." Some of choose not to, because of the fear they will be ridiculed or ostracized by those close to them. So some that are into "kink" choose to keep it a secret.
When Someone You Love Is Kinky is a wonderful book to give to a friend or lover to explain to them some of the reasons why you enjoy this lifestyle. The authors take a calm and understanding approach in this book, perfect for non-kinky readers who might wonder why their otherwise "normal-looking" relative takes such delight in activities they themselves may be uncomfortable with.

The first couple of chapters deal with how a non-kinky person (such as your partner or best friend) might be feeling after finding out that their friend or lover likes to be spanked, whipped, tied up or "whatever." The authors obviously have been down this road many times of explaining their kink to so-called "vanilla people" and dealt with either hostile or indifferent reactions. Subsequent chapters explain more about the "world of kink," how we manage to keep all our activites consensual, and how to better accept your friend's kink. There's a chapter at the end of the book that explains how to deal with finding out it's your partner that is "kinky."

If you've been searching for ways to explain your "kink" to a "non-kinky" person, this book is a great place to start.

************************************************



I bought this book to give to my sister. I ended up buying a second copy to keep for myself.
I don't think any book can be a substitute for an honest, thoughtful conversation, but this book certainly helps with those difficult questions that come up. It is very honest but gentle. It is easy to read, and full of compassion for both the nonkinky reader and the kinky person.
The surprise for me was how much I appreciated the book for myself. It includes a number of "coming out" letters the authors collected--letters kinky people wrote and wished they dared to send to their families and friends. Some of these were deeply touching.
There is such a sense of dignity and honesty in this book, it kept reminding me of reasons why being kinky person is something to be proud of. I ended up holding my head a little higher, feeling a little more confident and comfortable with myself.
And my sister loved the book too!

************************************************


Discussing alternative and controversial sexualities is the raison detre of Greenery Press. This one goes further by directly addressing those not already in the choir (whether in or out of the closet). What a challenge! Even the authors acknowledge that they're so immersed in kink culture that they've lost a certain amount of objectivity.
The chapters follow the classic recipe for a successful scene: start slower than slow, lighter than light, and build up from there. A gentle introduction is followed by a check-in, with reminders to breathe and relax. Terms are defined, practices are described, and safety issues are given high priority. For the reader left wanting more, there's a resources guide.
Keeping in mind the reactionary skepticism I felt when one of my friends joined a religious cult, I wondered how effective this book would be in soothing a non-kinkster. Some of the more explicit passages - such as a lighthearted description of a birthday kidnapping orgy - might have Aunt Matilda calling for the funny wagon. This book would best be preceded by some deep heart-to-heart conversations between the loved ones, rather than offered as the initial coming out gesture. Perhaps it doesn't need saying, but I would recommend that the person coming out would benefit by reading the entire thing before offering it to Dad. Which brings me to an important point.
Easton and Liszt specifically address family, friends, mates, and health practitioners throughout the book. An unexpected side-effect was that I - an emerging-from-the-closet kinkster - found a deeper understanding and acceptance of myself and my desires. This could be the best BDSM introduction yet

************************************************


The spectrum of human sexuality and behavior is culturally defined, shaped, and sanctioned. Some acts and relationships being within the norm, others being viewed as extreme or deviant. In every society, consenting adult sexual practices can vary widely as to whether they are normative or "kinky". These practices include bondage, spanking, cross-dressing, erotic role-playing, fetishism, and related activities. Marriage and family counselor Dossie Easton and writer/educator Catherine A. Liszt wrote When Someone You Love Is Kinky to help "non-kinky" folks understand and communicate with their kinky friends, partners, and relatives. Included are guidelines for dealing with the emotional turmoil of the coming-out process; brief and non-threatening descriptions of the commonest kinks (and ideas about why people enjoy them); suggestions for how to talk to your kinky friend or relative in ways that promote good communication; explanation of how kinky people keep themselves safe while exploring diverse sexualities; a glossary of commonly used terminology from the kink communities; a resource guide to help the reader find further information and support. A highly recommended addition to personal, academic, and community library human sexuality reference collections, When Someone You Love Is Kinky is sound, appropriate, informative, and serious reading.

I've read it, and I'd agree with the reviews listed above.

You can buy them second-hand, and I think you'd find it very helpful!

~ShadeDiva

_____________________________

~ShadeDiva
My projects of love:
theFetishForums
HumanFauna
Kinked
DommeWorld

(in reply to nella)
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RE: Thoughts on submission - 2/7/2005 7:08:22 PM   
mistoferin


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quote:

women worked so long to be equal with men


You may want to point out to them that prior to that fight, women were generally submissive to their husbands. I think that if you compare the divorce rates then to the ones of today they will speak for themselves about how such an unequal relationship can have longevity.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

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RE: Thoughts on submission - 2/7/2005 10:09:40 PM   
taewakan


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It sounds like your vanilla friends want women to be free to choose, but only as long as they choose a top or dom lifestyle. Freedom to choose for yourself is what liberty is about - freedom with responsibility. I hear from too many people that try to use fredom of religion or speech (usually) to preach taking freedom to be anything that isn't like them away. That is not what America is about.
There is a huge difference between choosing a sub lifestyle and accepting less pay for equal work or putting up with sexual harrassment at anywhere - as a sub, you are not subject to ALL doms - just those you choose to sub to.
Hope this helps
Tae

_____________________________

Patience is the art of timing

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RE: Thoughts on submission - 2/8/2005 6:32:41 AM   
darkinshadows


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Greetings fencer

Submission is about freedom. Having the choice to be what you want to be with restraint*excuse the pun*...

Its just about freedom. Why should a person confirm to a stereotype? They shouldn't... which is why BDSM is so freeing. Freedom in chains is an' ole' analagy, but very true.

Although I can understand that a person has a need to get their point across, sometimes just being what and who you are without justifying it, can be the greatest and most poignant point of all.

Peace and Love


_____________________________


.dark.




...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

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RE: Thoughts on submission - 2/8/2005 8:09:56 AM   
happypervert


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I can't share any ideas for explaining submission, but I do have a few for arguing.

I'd suggest using an analogy to something they can identify with. For example, I don't understand why anyone would golf or be religious or vote republican or smoke cigarettes among other things. But at least I don't waste my time trying to persuade them that they're wrong and I'm right. Sounds like your friends are women's lib inspired zealots and they're so self-righteous in their beliefs they need to convert you; using analogies may help them see that their arguments are like trying to make you convert religions or do something else repugnant. And if it doesn't help them to become more open minded, then maybe comparing them to fanatics will make them at least shut up.

_____________________________

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RE: Thoughts on submission - 2/8/2005 8:28:35 AM   
sweetpleaser


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I get questioned all the time why I give over power to my hubby. I am not dumb so I know what I am doing and am happy with it. In my case I have gotten to the point of just saying, "because it makes me happy."
They tend to give up then. I'm sure in their minds I am a fool but I can't think about what others think. I have a happy family life and that is all that counts.

_____________________________

~ann~

It's not the men in my life that count, it's the life in my men.--Mae West

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RE: Thoughts on submission - 2/8/2005 9:19:32 AM   
Goodmix


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i don't try to explain my feelings to my vanilla friends.
i read something one time about FAITH (in God) it said "For those who beleive, no explanation is necessary, for those who don't, no explantion will do." i think it's kinda the same with me & my vanilla friends.
Some know i consider myself "nontradional", or that i am "comfortable with my sexuality" (even though D/s has nothing to do with sex) and they may ask questions. THEN i answer the question and just the question. Just like it was one of my kids asking me about sex. i give them the answer and nothing more. Based on what i have read about kids asking about sex.... they only ask what they are ready to know about ~ so "you" only answer the question. "They" may not be ready for more.
i actually had a friend tell me i should do this for money, wanna talk about insulting ~ but she doesn't have a clue, so i explainded that this is not something i do lightly, that there is a great deal of thougth trust and comitment involved. She said she understood, but who knows.

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RE: Thoughts on submission - 2/8/2005 9:25:38 AM   
perverseangelic


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As a rabid feminist, I've had to put a lot of thought into -why- it isn't opposing women's equality to choose to submit.

The conclution I've come to is this--I -chose- to submit. I wasn't given that role because I am a woman. I wasn't forced to submit to my partner because he's male and I'm female. I was able to make the choice independant of outside pressures.

To me, that is an act of female impowerment. I tihnk that the ultimate goal of women's right should be to insure women have the right to choose to do -whatever- they want to do, even if that choice makes them appear "repressed."

The biggest thing, though, is that it must be a -choice- and not what they feel they are expected to do, or must do.

_____________________________

~in the begining it is always dark~

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RE: Thoughts on submission - 2/8/2005 11:44:26 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

I've been having a very difficult time explaining why submission is not de-humanizing, degrading, wrong, etc. to a few of my vanilla friends. I've tried to explain how liberating it is for me, but can't seem to find the right words.


try giving examples from your experiences. for instance, perhaps one way that you submit is by being sexually available at any time. for you, maybe this eliminates the tension created when one otherwise vanilla partner doesn't feel the other is as sexually available as would be liked, or maybe it is just a turn-on for you to be used at another's discretion instead of your own. perhaps you turn over your income and the financial decisions are not made by you, having that level of trust is important to you in a relationship and it is similar to a vanilla relationship where it is agreed that one partner handles the checkbook.

quote:

I've gotten lectures on how "women worked so long to be equal with men, how could you just give up all your freedoms to them?"


exactly what freedoms are they talking about that women, collectively, are considered to be equals to men that you would be giving up? the freedom to vote? to have an abortion? to own property? again, it would depend upon your your experiences and your relationship---is not owning property part of the submission you enjoy? are you forbidden to vote or make decisions with regards to your reproductive organs?
quote:

"A relationship like that could never last because there is so much inequality"

we, as women collectively, are no where near to being considered equal to men politically, economically, even socially and that's just taking the US societal standard into view--what about the rest of the world?

responsibility, integrity, effort, commitment, trust, communication, honesty are required on both sides of any succesfull relationship, be it D/s or vanilla and the vanilla ones certainly don't have such a great track record if we look at our society's divorce rates as an indicator. for that matter, the arguement could be made that ANY relationship would never last because there are two individual people involved, of any combination of different backgrounds, races, socio-economic status', education levels, physical statures that would never even the playing field entirely, so why bother?

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RE: Thoughts on submission - 2/9/2005 6:27:34 PM   
fencerpet19


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Thanks everyone! These are all really helpful. I'm sure I'll make a good point next time it comes up!

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RE: Thoughts on submission - 2/10/2005 8:01:19 PM   
subgreg


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quote:


You may want to point out to them that prior to that fight, women were generally submissive to their husbands. I think that if you compare the divorce rates then to the ones of today they will speak for themselves about how such an unequal relationship can have longevity.


I agree that an unequal relationship can have longevity, for the same reasons an equal one could: mutual love, respect, interest, commitment, etc.. It is dangerous to fall into the trap of romanticizing the past, and picking out certain details which we admire. The climbing divorce rates are tragic, and I wish they were more like they were 50 years ago, but I don't think relationships that cast the woman as the submissive simply because she is a woman are to be held as an ideal.


quote:

ORIGINAL: happypervert

Sounds like your friends are women's lib inspired zealots and they're so self-righteous in their beliefs they need to convert you


Rather than viewing your friends as zealots intent on conversion, I would try to point out to them that it has nothing to do with gender at all. It is entirely personal, just you and your master.

_____________________________

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"The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation"
~~~
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RE: Thoughts on submission - 2/11/2005 5:26:45 AM   
Sirssweet


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Truer words never spoken! amen!!

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RE: Thoughts on submission - 2/13/2005 9:45:23 AM   
cuumsluut


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I was kinda hoping it would be de-humanizing and degrading...there's right and wrong in everything, not just kink.

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RE: Thoughts on submission - 2/13/2005 10:01:15 AM   
MsSilvie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

quote:

women worked so long to be equal with men


You may want to point out to them that prior to that fight, women were generally submissive to their husbands. I think that if you compare the divorce rates then to the ones of today they will speak for themselves about how such an unequal relationship can have longevity.


It's true that there were fewer divorces, but don't think it was because relationships were anybetter. It's simply because there were no other options when a female had no ability to support herself and had no support from society to leave a bad marriage.

Choosing to submit to your husband/master/etc is very different than saying you are submissive to all males. The fact that you have the freedom and the confidance and courage to make that choice is what makes the difference between healthy and unhealthy submission.

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RE: Thoughts on submission - 2/13/2005 8:37:03 PM   
phoenix52


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MsSilvie
It's true that there were fewer divorces, but don't think it was because relationships were anybetter. It's simply because there were no other options when a female had no ability to support herself and had no support from society to leave a bad marriage.

Choosing to submit to your husband/master/etc is very different than saying you are submissive to all males. The fact that you have the freedom and the confidance and courage to make that choice is what makes the difference between healthy and unhealthy submission.



i cannot agree enough. An abusive marriage that happens to be societally accepted is *NOT* BDSM. my great grandfather beat his wife (and kids) with a mule whip.... there was no choice involved. Wow, those were the days.

Sorry if i sound a little crazy on this topic, it's something i feel strongly about...

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RE: Thoughts on submission - 2/15/2005 2:48:55 PM   
Sirssweet


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Until i reckognized my submissiveness, there was always a struggle. As a successful business ownere, it took me a while to come to terms iwth my basic needs. But, as they say, "the truth shall set you free"... and it has. i must assume that folks with no submissive side - or folks who lack the ocurage to accept their submissive side - will never know the delicious feeling of complete and total abandon to a higher power of their own choosing.

_____________________________

Sir's sweet

If you want to live life to the fullest, you have to be able to live freely.

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