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Are we beginning on false truths? - 2/11/2005 11:26:24 AM   
oceangem


Posts: 360
Joined: 2/9/2004
From: Mission, BC. Canada
Status: offline 		With permission from the OP i have borrow this discussion topic. It comes from a another site of which i am the moderator of the community group to which it was posted. It has not had much success there so i am hoping that it will here. The OP is Damien_2 so here it is ....

I have followed this group off and on now since the beggining
and while it had a great start, the tide seems to be shifting
from discussion to hey anyone wanna fuck me please....Ok
it is nice to get laid, and more power to you...but lets also
try for discussion...

A question I pose....or perhaps nothing more than a topic...

One of my favorite things to hear is I am a Master/Mistress..who
will respect your limits above all else....or from the
flipside, I am a sub/slave/bottom...who will only ever
consider a top who will guarantee to respect my limits above
all else...
I think these are admiral things to offer or expect, however
in my humble opinion they are asinine...
I say this because a large part of bdsm is pshycological,
and part of this is for the top to help the bottom grow beyond
her/his limits helping her/him become all she/he can be...does
that not also sound familiar?...(it is quite often found
in the same profiles which demand or guarantee to respect
limits)
Now how can we guarantee to respect and yet strive to go beyond?....simple...we
can't...we must choose one or the other.....
Sure you can argue that there are hard limits such as no kids,
not in front of my mother, and never sitting in a parachute
while hanging from power lines...and these may always
remain the same...but on the other hand I have seen hard
limits(and these were strict hard limits)such as no water
sports, scat, blood, breaking of the skin, beastiality,
and so on...and yet I have seen bottoms not only move beyond
these but also learn to enjoy or even crave them....(for
example water sprts could be as simple as top peeing on the
floor, bottom cleaning it...or it could involve ingesting
urine...scat could be enema play or use for a toilet, blood
or breaking of the skin, a simple temporary piercing)....(my
point being there are diffent degrees to every hard limit)(ever
baist(sp) a turkey for thanksgiving?..beasitality folks)
sure not every kink is for everyone...but that is a game
of compromise, communication, and understanding between
the two in any given relationship....however it still
evades my question of....what exactly are we trying to
say when we offer to respect limits and yet ignore that respect
and push beyond?
I think it would be very beneficial to hear from both tops
and bottoms on this....
Are we beggining relationships built on false truths...are
we setting ourselves up for failure...are we limiting
the amount of time we can be with the same person by limiting
the growth allowed in our initial agreement?....
I do not ask this to judge nor be judged..I ask in hope that
perhaps we can have an educational or at least perhaps honest
and worthwhile discussion...
Thankyou...


And my response to this topic....

Its all about communication, and trust, first and foremost.
Yes there are many profiles that include the words "respect
of one's limits", i think that those words are
a opening to a door so that the person can grow beyond them
in time and with trust. They can also be used as a sounding
board in finding the right partner to explore with, if the
hard limit is no watersports, blood, breathe play etc...
then one is not going to look for one that has those interests,
yet on the other hand if those are soft limits i would want
them to be pushed to the point they are no longer a limit but
a level or degree how much more can i take.
Its not that we are beginning a relationship on false truths
or that we are setting ourselves up to fail with the "respect
of one's limits" but it is limiting the ability
to grow and learn in the relationship.

A great topic Damien and response by rebus thank you both.
i also look forward to reading more reponses to this topic




_____________________________

she gives a smile when the pain comes... the pain is gonna make everything alright.

Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Are we beginning on false truths? - 2/11/2005 11:55:25 AM   
domtimothy46176


Posts: 670
Joined: 12/25/2004
From: Dayton, Ohio area
Status: offline 		I can say inequivocably that I respect my girl's limits. I acknowledge them and I understand why they exist. I do not consider them to be permanent, however. I see them as her current bounderies, keeping her caged. My job, as I explained it to her, is to help her overcome those limitations that do not serve her best interests. In respecting her bounderies I agree to help her maintain those that are healthy while encouraging and assisting her to overcome those that are not neccessary to her health and safety, thereby freeing her to be all that she can become.
Timothy

(in reply to oceangem)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: Are we beginning on false truths? - 2/11/2005 12:24:18 PM   
panthergoddess


Posts: 93
Joined: 1/11/2005
From: Bessemer City, NC USA
Status: offline 		I think that a Top stating that they will respect boundries serves the primary purpose of establishing their submissive's trust. Once the trust is established properly, whatever boundries that existed in the beginning eventually melt away. it can be said that the higher the trust the lower the boundries.

I also think that most submissives add the respect for boundries as for their protection based on a couple of things. A. They are transitioning from vanilla to the lifestyle and their minds and bodies have not been tested or expanded. B. They are submissives that have been in the lifestyle a while and have been tested and expanded far beyond what their were willing to do in the early stages of their journey they may have left them feeling utterly abused or taken advantage of in a negative way, and that may have left lingering trust issues that the Top will have to fight against in some way.

I think that either stating the importance of the respect for boundries from the start is not so much of an issue on either of their parts as much as it is a beginning point for taking the journey together.

_____________________________

"No good deed goes unpunished."

(in reply to domtimothy46176)
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RE: Are we beginning on false truths? - 2/11/2005 1:25:22 PM   
Alexander


Posts: 159
Joined: 12/10/2004
Status: offline 		I think limits are just sex conventions which hide the real need of the submissive; to offer herself as a willing supplicant to someone who will take what he/she wants without asking, making them a divine object. Pure submission even outside of headspace seems to be a means to cleanse the soul of mistrust.

I think slave girls should just put .
"I am looking for the last good man on earth who I can trust and shower with adoration as is my need from deep inside and if he wants to do something nasty I am sure he will see the look in my eyes and know it's not going to be good for either of us."

On the other hand I understand that in the play scene, some submissives are actually looking to be used as toys because they need it. Toys come with instructions or yah break em.

False truths? I would say...we're beginning by introducing our secret pleasures anonymously. After all once you set your hard limits you are actually saying, I am into pretty much everything up to X. Not sure if they are false because of it.

Alex.


(in reply to panthergoddess)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Are we beginning on false truths? - 2/11/2005 6:14:19 PM   
MizSuz


Posts: 1881
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		A man once said to me, "I could never do that."

"You'd be surprised at what you would do to please the right person" I replied.

Later, much later, he said to me "I'm amazed that I did that."

One needn't demand to push a limit. One needn't trod upon or disregard a limit to push it. One need only develop inside the submissive a will to please. Trust is important for laying the groundword, but it's not the beginning and the end. The need to please is the thing.

With the properly nurtured need to please, there are no limits save those that are given by the dominant. But you the submissive can believe you've all the control (to say stop) if it makes you feel better. Eventually, given enough time, you will vex the belief and be happy to be free of it, too.

And when that happens the limits will melt away, never needing to be compromised and having served their purpose.





< Message edited by MizSuz -- 2/12/2005 3:31:01 PM >

_____________________________

“The more you love, the more you can love—and the more intensely you love. Nor is there any limit on how many you can love. If a person had time enough, he could love all of that majority who are decent and just.”
- Robert Heinlein

(in reply to oceangem)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: Are we beginning on false truths? - 2/11/2005 7:02:05 PM   
bluedogg7000


Posts: 16
Joined: 1/2/2005
Status: offline 		I think limits, as others have said here, are a somewhat situational issue. To advertise limits or the respect of those limits presumes alot. But we must consider the medium here. Just possibly some aren't totally truthful in their adverts.I think a little personal history and core beliefs as to BDSM are probably best in a profile. The discussion of limits and their possible expansion should come later once lines of communication are opened. It works for me...

(in reply to MizSuz)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: Are we beginning on false truths? - 2/12/2005 10:38:05 AM   
DeadofKnight


Posts: 29
Joined: 10/2/2004
Status: offline 		These are my thoughts and my opinions, take them as such.

How many relationships have you seen that do not pass the two year mark? In my opinion, and what I have see since my beginning of this lifestyle in '97, most do not reach over two to three years.
Yes, I had one slave for almost two years. But, then, I didn’t want a slave, I wanted a submissive. She thought she was a submissive. But, in fact and in my opinion and from my the experiences with her, she was a slave. At the time I was not knowledgeable or experienced enough to have a slave.

I have seen a lot of Tops (I'll use the term for all inclusive Top people, dominant or otherwise) that seem to take great pride in pushing the limits of bottoms (again, all inclusive, submissive or not).
WHY? Is it likened to being addicted to a drug and you have to do it in order to get your high?
I don't see the point. It is elusive to me. What is the point of doing that when there are so, so, so many ways to play with your bottom?
Is it that a bottom setting the limits of a Top the draw to get them beyond those?
Are those the importance of the relationship and not the individual themselves?
Where does it go from there?
Do the Tops then look for new ways to take the bottom beyond even that new point of that limit?
Are Tops so stuck in their ways that they cannot and do not engage in activities "within" the limits set by the bottom?
How limiting is that?
Why put those limits on yourself as a Top?

Sometimes I feel like I am alone in my thinking this way. I am very creative in the way I Top ‘within the limits’ of those that have bottomed to me. If a bottom wants to push a limit, or edge a limit, there IS going to be some in-depth discussion about it first. Having the discussion puts the limit in a grey area and allows it the opportunity to be malleable or moveable without a breach of the respect for the limit set by the bottom for the Top.
Once a Top steps beyond the respect of consent and set limits of a bottom, you have put one foot firmly on the road to ruin. I will not do that. That would be the first step in destroying the relationship that is so dear to me. I feel it would be almost impossible to earn that respect again because the bottom would know with certainty that I am not to be trusted with the set limits.
Trust is something that is built just like you would build a house of bricks. One block at a time, layer upon layer. In its completion you have a very strong structure of respect and the bottom ‘trusts’ the Top from what the two have built together.
If that Top intentionally takes that bottom beyond even one limit without consent, then one or more of the blocks in their structure of respect and trust has been weakened or removed completely. The house of bricks is now flawed and does not have the strength that it used to have. It is possible to rebuild the respect and trust but, more often the structure will eventually crumble and the Top and bottom will part ways because their foundation of trust became even more eroded as the bottom wonders more and more whether the Top can be trusted with anything.
This is not the fault of the bottom. The bottom did not breach a barrier, or limit, here in this example. Being a Top has a lot of responsibilities naturally attached to it, and you cannot separate the two.
Sometimes a bottom does not even know their limits and the Top may run into one accidentally. This is where very clear lines of communication must be kept open at all times, even during our play activities. Especially if a bottom is fairly new. When engaging in new activities, the Top should be very aware of the bottom and pay extremely close attention to the bottom and watch for signs of discomfort and/or uncertainty with their bottom. Body language and expressions will tell you a lot.
Quite often a bottom will endure what the Top is doing with them, as they really do wish to please their trusted and respected Top. Sometimes the only way a bottom finds a limit is during the experience they are in with their Top. This is where it can get a bit sticky about limits. The Top must be very aware and attuned to their bottom, when playing in new areas.
If a Top accidentally hits or steps beyond an unknown limit of the bottom, the injury can be repaired by talking about it, learning what it is and respecting its existence. Communication, understanding and respect for each other are the keys to a successful relationship.

Again, these are my thoughts and my opinions.

Knight

< Message edited by DeadofKnight -- 3/5/2005 8:38:53 AM >

_____________________________

Knight
These are my views and my opinions. Please treat them as such.
If you'd like to ask a question of my posts, mail me here on Collarme.
Mutually collared with hesterprynne

(in reply to oceangem)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Are we beginning on false truths? - 2/17/2005 6:08:09 AM   
MemphisDsCouple


Posts: 146
Joined: 11/1/2004
From: Memphis, TN, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: oceangem

Are we beggining relationships built on false truths...are
we setting ourselves up for failure...are we limiting
the amount of time we can be with the same person by limiting
the growth allowed in our initial agreement?....


Yes. See this thread: http://www.collarme.com/forum/The_End_of_Slavery/m_71591/tm.htm

_____________________________

B. (the male half of MemphisDsCouple)

(in reply to oceangem)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Are we beginning on false truths? - 2/17/2005 7:08:08 AM   
ShiftedJewel


Posts: 2492
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline 		I have this article posted in one of my community and I think it fits here perfectly. It's rather long but worth the read... IMHO.

***article snipped due to TOS violation (ty nopinkballoons), link can be found:
http://www.steel-door.com/Beyond_Limits.html




< Message edited by ModeratorFive -- 2/19/2005 5:49:08 AM >

(in reply to oceangem)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Are we beginning on false truths? - 2/17/2005 7:50:55 AM   
Goodmix


Posts: 86
Joined: 8/4/2004
Status: offline 		i think the reason this thread did not do so well in the other venue is that the poster “contradicts themselves more than one.
For example they day they say ..."My favorite thing to hear is...." and goes on to put that statement down.

They also say "Now how can we guarantee to respect and yet strive to go beyond?....simple...we
can't...we must choose one or the other..... " then go on to explain how people expand limits.

they also say " think these are admiral things ...my humble opinion they are asinine... " which is it?
my head hurt, and i stopped reading

i know i am blonde, but i was not sure what they are trying to ask


oh, i just figured out how to change the letter to a smiley

(in reply to oceangem)
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RE: Are we beginning on false truths? - 2/17/2005 8:01:55 AM   
RiotGirl


Posts: 3149
Status: offline 		Access Denied

< Message edited by RiotGirl -- 3/15/2005 10:39:45 PM >

(in reply to Goodmix)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Are we beginning on false truths? - 2/17/2005 8:04:53 AM   
EmeraldSlave2


Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: oceangem

Now how can we guarantee to respect and yet strive to go beyond



Simple. It's this thing called "time." Boundaries we have at one point may be totally different than what we have at another.

We can respect a persons limits as they are now, and be honest about where we want to go with them in the future.

For example, the Owner is the one who set the limits in our relationship, which are pretty much non-existent. However, for a brand new partner, my limits are no permanent marks without permission from the Owner, blood, and always protected sex. Over time, blood may become part of the relationship.

So someone can easily respect my initial three limits, and yet in time push beyond them.

(in reply to oceangem)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Are we beginning on false truths? - 2/19/2005 1:07:21 AM   
GentleLady


Posts: 356
Joined: 2/1/2005
Status: offline 		Thank You ShiftedJewel. That was good reading.

Gentle Lady

_____________________________

All things are possible to those who have patience, try, and are willing to learn.

(in reply to ShiftedJewel)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Are we beginning on false truths? - 2/19/2005 2:25:42 AM   
NoPinkBalloons


Posts: 125
Joined: 2/7/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ShiftedJewel

I have this article posted in one of my community and I think it fits here perfectly. It's rather long but worth the read... IMHO.


Yikes! I believe the forum rules say NOT to post full text articles unless you're the copyright holder to them. This is going to get pulled, when a Mod sees it.

Here's a link to the copyrighted version of the article from the Steel Door website: http://www.steel-door.com/Beyond_Limits.html



_____________________________

-- Sherri

A hard-on does NOT count as personal growth

(in reply to ShiftedJewel)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Are we beginning on false truths? - 2/19/2005 5:03:37 AM   
ShiftedJewel


Posts: 2492
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline 		My deepest apologies, I did NOT know it was literally the "whole" article, and I didn't have a link to where it came from. I now have the link posted with the article in my community and have given credit where it was due, thank you Sherri....

Again, I apologize, I'm learning.

Jewel

_____________________________

Don't ask, trust me, you won't like the answer... no one ever does.

(in reply to NoPinkBalloons)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Are we beginning on false truths? - 2/19/2005 10:37:52 PM   
NoPinkBalloons


Posts: 125
Joined: 2/7/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ShiftedJewel

I did NOT know it was literally the "whole" article, and I didn't have a link to where it came from.


I have a HUGE library of links, and I often recognize where I read something the first time. Even with that, though, things show up that I've never read, as was the case with this article. Just put the first one or two sentences into google and it will almost always comes up with a list of websites. From there it's not much work to find out which one is the "original" or copyrighted version.

I'm sure there are other ways to find a link or who credit should go to, but this is what I've found easiest/most efficient.

_____________________________

-- Sherri

A hard-on does NOT count as personal growth

(in reply to ShiftedJewel)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Are we beginning on false truths? - 2/20/2005 5:38:04 AM   
topcat


Posts: 1675
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Tidewater, VA
Status: offline
quote:

A man once said to me, "I could never do that." ...

...Later, much later, he said to me "I'm amazed that I did that."


Madame-

I am quite sure you have heard those words more than once<g>.


quote:

With the properly nurtured need to please, there are no limits save those that are given by the dominant.


I find the overse to be true, also. With clear and proven spirit of good faith and good will in a submissive, I have found my limits to become mallable, too.

Stay warm,
Lawrence

_____________________________

-there is no remission without blood-

(in reply to MizSuz)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Are we beginning on false truths? - 2/20/2005 5:56:38 AM   
ShiftedJewel


Posts: 2492
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline 		Ty MOD Five.

Jewel

_____________________________

Don't ask, trust me, you won't like the answer... no one ever does.

(in reply to ShiftedJewel)
Profile   Post #: 18
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