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BDSM05478 -> International BDSM (11/23/2006 6:07:12 PM)
I know we joke alot about the one "true" BDSM path but I was curious how the BDSM life varies around the world? Like that one poster that claims european BDSM has "panache" wheres american form is rougher....... I do have some knowledge about asian geisha type subs/slaves but this alleged european school? And where does old Guard fit into the puzzle of things.... what was it and how is it now different? Learning links always appreciated.

sleazy -> RE: International BDSM (11/23/2006 9:13:58 PM)
Well now, having lived both sides of the atlantic I have developed some stereotypes from both real life & the net English, very strict with rigid rules, schoolroom and cane, victorian head of house etc. German, lots of leather/rubber, vampire/goth too American, more daddy/little girl types As said, purely stereotypes and not based on any persons I know living or dead :)

LadyHugs -> RE: International BDSM (11/23/2006 10:28:26 PM)
Dear BDSM05478, Ladies and Gentlemen; I will say bluntly, that there is nothing 'alleged' about the European and or International BDSM community period. There are those who are on CM that are in the category of 'overseas' and or countries other than North America. Sending something in the mail overseas; supports such, as it was BDSM related materials. In addition to belonging to sites where the European community is more represented than Americans. In addition, there is a well known speaker JR who claimed that there was no such thing as European BDSM. Couldn't counter when asked about those Americans overseas serving in the military and or in a civilian capacity. There are quite a few big BDSM gatherings, a lot of them Gay Leather that is like Folsom, overseas as well. Heterosexual and Pansexual groups can be found through Google as well. Leather Archives and Library is a good resource link. It holds quite a bit of old historical books and magazines which date back into the early 1900s. But, I will also add; that BDSM is a rather modern term. debauchery and or houses of tolerance, spanking houses, spanking clubs, Hell Fire Club in England which dates around the 1700s. There is the 1792 "Bon Ton Magazine" which is a European generated piece, that described a female flagellation club. 1870 is when the high society started using "Houses of Debauchery" instead of using "Houses of Tolerances," in Paris France. During the Victorian era, Madame Berkley created the "Berkley Horse," what is known as the "spanking horse today;" to which Madame Berkley had several respectable spanking clubs for gentlemen. As far as Old Guard, that can be researched on Google and or other web search engines. Old Guard is usually tied into Gay Leather men. As with anything, one must be mindful that regardless of what style of BDSM, M/s, D/s, S&M and the like; there will be a flavoring added, as to region, culture, ability to gain support, education and or equipment as well as the laws involved. Respectfully submitted for consideration, Lady Hugs

vield -> RE: International BDSM (11/23/2006 10:47:56 PM)
Lady Hugs makes some excellent points. One fact you can readily observe is that there is no universal agreement about terms, rules, or even definitions among BD/SM scene people in the world, in Europe, in the Americas, in the US, or even in any particular state. Kinky is a term many would accept, but that also can mean a lot of different things to different people. Strict rules, rituals and protocols one group absolutely requires will not be agreed upon or followed by many other groups. Yes variations of BD/SM go back as far as history does. Acceptable practices vary much between groups. There are places actual non-consensual slavery can still exist, even though that is now very much illegal in most countries. Of course groups and scenes also change over time. No matter how different are the actions you seek, you are NOT the only person with those interests. I usually remind people that my thoughts may not apply to you, your mileage may vary. vield

DungeonSpain -> RE: International BDSM (11/23/2006 11:19:09 PM)
Hi there We run a professionl dungeon here in Spain. Iron Damsel on is a native New Yorker (or as I prefer to refer to her a capitalist imperialist) and I am a Brit. Consequently in the last 6 years of business we have observed pretty well all aspects of the BDM scenes. Whilst individuals may vary from person to person, there are national characteristics which emanate from different groups. These aspects are particularly noticeable in the parties they organise and attend, at regular intervals. German parties ..... arrive, beat the crap out of each other, scream, shout, drink , etc ... and thoroughly enjoy themselves, then go home. Spaniards are big into rituals and there is considerable passion and emotion contained in their play. They, for example re-enact Inquisition scenes, with appropriate clothing. Dutch ... very nice respectable people ... chat a while, and then play ... very politely asking each other "Is this OK ?" ..."Is that OK ?", and so on. Very reserved. Brits tend to bicker amongst themselves, never know what they want to do, and are persitent moaners ... about everything ... the dungeon, each other, techniques, and are basically a pain in the butt ( ... and this comes from a Brit !!) Swedes and Scandinavians in general, are surprisingly hard players ... more so even than the Germans, but sophisticated with it. Yankee imperialists (no offence intended ... it's just how I see them) want everything perfect. They want it to be plastic wrapped and given to them in a smartly tied up gift box. They like to script their play, rather than have it evolve or rely on the circumstances. I could go on for we have a wide client base, but I shall not for fear that the reader (s) will nod off to sleep. In any event, this is how we see the different national characteristics. Regards from sunny Spain Jane and Stewart aka Iron Damsel and Highlander www.bondagedominationspain.com [Mod Note: email address removed]

Lordandmaster -> RE: International BDSM (11/23/2006 11:22:08 PM)
Yeah, I've noticed that too. quote: ORIGINAL: sleazy English, very strict with rigid rules, schoolroom and cane, victorian head of house etc. German, lots of leather/rubber, vampire/goth too American, more daddy/little girl types

Emperor1956 -> RE: International BDSM (11/23/2006 11:47:47 PM)
quote: DungeonSpain: Hi there We run a professionl dungeon here in Spain. Iron Damsel on is a native New Yorker (or as I prefer to refer to her a capitalist imperialist) and I am a Brit. Consequently in the last 6 years of business we have observed pretty well all aspects of the BDM scenes. [snip for brevity...go up and read their interesting post about nationalities and B/D/S/M]. HEY...this could be fun. We can pick a nationality, and then stereotype the play (I don't mean this with malice, more a game): For example: Italians: elegant play and lovely, sexy people, but they tend to switch (allegiances, roles, etc.) awfully fast...and rarely wind up on the same side they started with. Russians: Lots of leather, lots of alcohol. A few years ago everything in Russian play was scripted, and the scene had to run according to a 5 year plan, which rarely worked, and so another scene with another 5 year plan was introduced; currently play is much more free-form, and available for hard currency on the Internet. Swiss: Very precise, rigid play....one might say "like clockwork". All men are issued a sealed "Dom" kit at age 18 which contains floggers, paddles and clamps on which they train rigorously in compulsory "Domination National" service from 18-30, and thereafter in the reserves. However, opening the home Dom kit without direct government orders is seriously punished by law; since 1945 the Swiss government has never issued an order for the Dom reserve units to open their kits and go into action, but if they did, look out Germany and France! Your turn! E.

susie -> RE: International BDSM (11/24/2006 12:44:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sleazy Well now, having lived both sides of the atlantic I have developed some stereotypes from both real life & the net English, very strict with rigid rules, schoolroom and cane, victorian head of house etc. German, lots of leather/rubber, vampire/goth too American, more daddy/little girl types As said, purely stereotypes and not based on any persons I know living or dead :) Interesting but not sure where the English idea came from. I am sure there are some like that just as there are everywhere else but it is certainly not how the majority of the UK BDSM scene behave. Perhaps you went to some parties and things while you were in the UK you should let me have the details of!!!!!

ExSteelAgain -> RE: International BDSM (11/24/2006 2:02:16 AM)
I have to say I’ve lived all over the world and you can throw that stereotypical nationality thinking way into outer space where it can look back at one world. I’ve seen all types of BDSM players in diverse cultures. Yeah, I was surprised, too.

SamKeithsslave -> RE: International BDSM (11/24/2006 2:44:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BDSM05478 I know we joke alot about the one "true" BDSM path but I was curious how the BDSM life varies around the world? Like that one poster that claims european BDSM has "panache" wheres american form is rougher....... I do have some knowledge about asian geisha type subs/slaves but this alleged european school? And where does old Guard fit into the puzzle of things.... what was it and how is it now different? Learning links always appreciated. I cant help it but this all reminds me of an old old joke I heard that goes something like this.... There are four men, an Englishman, an Italian, a Frenchman and an Aussie in a bar all drinking and talking about their women. The Englishman starts to brag about his sex life saying. "Last night I made mad love to my wife for a full ten minutes, she was so impressed the next morning she made me my favourite breakfast and told me I was the best ever!" The Italian said.<imagine Italian accent> "last night, I made mad and passionate love to my wife for a full hour, she was ravenous and totally exhausted by the end of the session. The next morning she made my favourite breakfast and told me I was like a greek God!" The Frenchman snorted <imagne french accent> "Last night I made mad, passionate, gentle love to my wife for 3 hours. By the time we were finsihed she was glowing with excitement. the next morning she made me my favourite breakfast and told me I was better than Cassonova could have ever been." They all turned the the aussie. "Well last night I screwed my girl senseless" The other three looked at him and all asked together. "And what did she say in the morning?" The aussie replied. "Well she looked at me and said enough is enough already.......... get off!!!" This joke comes with the disclaimer that I am not insinuating any race is any better at sex than another.

MisPandora -> RE: International BDSM (11/24/2006 7:24:54 AM)
I didn't notice much of a difference between Canadian and European players when I've been traveling in the past 5 years. The biggest thing that was evident was that the Euro players have no problem with alcohol in their playspaces (and in Holland, soft drugs like weed.) Of course, most of them have been drinking freely since they are 12 and they don't seem to have the "do everything to excess" like us Americans do LOL

LRODANDMASTER -> RE: International BDSM (11/24/2006 7:28:47 AM)
THE BIGGEST DIFFERANCE IS THAT UROPEANS DO EVERYTIHNG ACORDING TO THE METRIC SYTSEM. OH AND THIER VOLTAGE IS DIFERRANT TOO, YOULL DISCOVER THAT IF YOU USE ELETRIC PLAY DEFINATELY BRING A TRASNFORMER.

LordODiscipline -> RE: International BDSM (11/24/2006 8:11:14 AM)
*LMAO...* *In my experience this is pretty freaking accurate...* *Let me ask you this -* *Are there any that seem to enjoy a "Chivalric" relational dynamic... you know the stereotype -* *Submissive on a pedestal,* *-adored,* *-her "gift" (submission) treated as though it were perfection incarnate?* *-Never asked to do anything which might discomfit her?* *Please, do tell - as this is apparently where the question stems from.* *Sincerely:* *~J, American Imperialist* quote: ORIGINAL: DungeonSpain Hi there We run a professionl dungeon here in Spain. Iron Damsel on is a native New Yorker (or as I prefer to refer to her a capitalist imperialist) and I am a Brit. Consequently in the last 6 years of business we have observed pretty well all aspects of the BDM scenes. Whilst individuals may vary from person to person, there are national characteristics which emanate from different groups. These aspects are particularly noticeable in the parties they organise and attend, at regular intervals. German parties ..... arrive, beat the crap out of each other, scream, shout, drink , etc ... and thoroughly enjoy themselves, then go home. Spaniards are big into rituals and there is considerable passion and emotion contained in their play. They, for example re-enact Inquisition scenes, with appropriate clothing. Dutch ... very nice respectable people ... chat a while, and then play ... very politely asking each other "Is this OK ?" ..."Is that OK ?", and so on. Very reserved. Brits tend to bicker amongst themselves, never know what they want to do, and are persitent moaners ... about everything ... the dungeon, each other, techniques, and are basically a pain in the butt ( ... and this comes from a Brit !!) Swedes and Scandinavians in general, are surprisingly hard players ... more so even than the Germans, but sophisticated with it. Yankee imperialists (no offence intended ... it's just how I see them) want everything perfect. They want it to be plastic wrapped and given to them in a smartly tied up gift box. They like to script their play, rather than have it evolve or rely on the circumstances. I could go on for we have a wide client base, but I shall not for fear that the reader (s) will nod off to sleep. In any event, this is how we see the different national characteristics. Regards from sunny Spain Jane and Stewart aka Iron Damsel and Highlander www.bondagedominationspain.com [Mod Note: email address removed]

LadyHugs -> RE: International BDSM (11/24/2006 8:42:49 AM)
Dear Ladies and Gentlemen; I am posting without any one and or thing in particular. I have observed and experienced in my travels, that there is a difference in those who go to club like dungeon settings and those who live the lifestyle quietly in their own home, with an occassional visit to the public dungeon club and or setting. That said, it impacts on people's behavior when they do go under the public's microscope and not seen as the total sum. Even in local under the microscope view, there are varieties of individuals that exist. Indeed, we can prejudice ourselves by stereotyping by nations and or regions, as well as what circles we travel. We (in general terms) can see it just on CM alone. Forgotten, is the fact when individuals go out into the public and focus on their individualism and personal 'style' of M/s, D/s, S&M and or BDSM; they do also have others judging them and jump to great amount of stereotyping. It bears saying, that not "all" [insert nationality] participate in BDSM, S&M, D/s and or M/s according to stereotyping. Otherwise, I would fit more into the category of Dutch, Swedish/Scandinavian and a bit of Spain. (I do love the Inquisition period S&M). But, I will confess being exposed overseas imprinted on me in my foundation years; even though I am an American--and, perhaps why I find it so hard to find a partner in the States and adore those in Europe; as my lifestyle roots started there. Just some thoughts. Respectfully submitted for consideration, Lady Hugs

LadyHugs -> RE: International BDSM (11/24/2006 8:57:08 AM)
Dear Emperor1956, Ladies and Gentlemen; I am all for having fun, giggles and grins. However, in regard to International/National BDSM and the sad business of stereotyping, the questions it raises in my mind's eyes I see--At who's expense? All nations, have used stereotyping as to divide the classes, to divide races, to divide gender, to divide religion and to divide the lifestyle culture. History has proved that stereotyping has been used in a negative manner and used as a tool of manipulation. So, I do express my concerns about making a 'game' out of serious issues when it involves people that may become a victim to 'the game.' Just some thoughts and concerns. Respectfully submitted for consideration, Lady Hugs

LordODiscipline -> RE: International BDSM (11/24/2006 3:11:28 PM)
Stereotypical methods are always used by humans to distinguish one group from another - language and looks are the most profound variable that separate and identify peoples ("Just the fax, ma'am"). As such, we develop our own cultures (no matter how globalized and/or homogenized) with many independent identifiers and signals incorporate in our manners and our means of communication, dress, customs, and colloquialistic expression. Because this is so, stereotypes develop from an over generalization of observed cultural differences and exressed attitudes bred from nationalism and sectarian and generational expression and (well you get the idea) within any society and./or group of societies. Stereotypes may be something used to seperate (by being over generalized and negative) or something used to explain (within or without the society being discussed) - by being 'pitch on' and accurate portrayals for the generic and generalized population being discussed. If it is spoken openly and without agenda it is often a means and opens a unique possibility for communication - if it is meant in a demeaning way and not used as an open discussion (cloistered and/or stated privately) it may be a means of denegration and seperation. *Take them as you shall - but, they can be a great means of understanding of another's stance and purpose - and, practical means of approach for someone of another culture when used as a bridge.* It is like the discussion about "judging" - "discrimination" is seen as a negative because it is always used (in America) defining it with an exclusionary bent... it is not so in actuality with many other uses including a means of discernment and inclusion. I 'stereotype' peoples using an a generalized idea(l) as a basis rather than an end all of actuality for a beginining of an understanding of where a person's views may start from.. but, do not limit this as the 'end all' for that person's character. ~J quote: ORIGINAL: LadyHugs Dear Emperor1956, Ladies and Gentlemen; I am all for having fun, giggles and grins. However, in regard to International/National BDSM and the sad business of stereotyping, the questions it raises in my mind's eyes I see--At who's expense? All nations, have used stereotyping as to divide the classes, to divide races, to divide gender, to divide religion and to divide the lifestyle culture. History has proved that stereotyping has been used in a negative manner and used as a tool of manipulation. So, I do express my concerns about making a 'game' out of serious issues when it involves people that may become a victim to 'the game.' Just some thoughts and concerns. Respectfully submitted for consideration, Lady Hugs

sleazy -> RE: International BDSM (11/24/2006 5:55:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: susie quote: ORIGINAL: sleazy Well now, having lived both sides of the atlantic I have developed some stereotypes from both real life & the net English, very strict with rigid rules, schoolroom and cane, victorian head of house etc. German, lots of leather/rubber, vampire/goth too American, more daddy/little girl types As said, purely stereotypes and not based on any persons I know living or dead :) Interesting but not sure where the English idea came from. I am sure there are some like that just as there are everywhere else but it is certainly not how the majority of the UK BDSM scene behave. Perhaps you went to some parties and things while you were in the UK you should let me have the details of!!!!! Well my post was meant in good humour, the english stereotype is admittedly based mainly on how others I have met/spoken to view the english. And that too is probably based on what little (relatively) is published over here, Janus and Tawsingham are the two that spring to mind. My own experience of UK clubs/meets is limited, almost non existent in recent years as a result of being in a vanilla relationship recently, and prior to that having been involved with people who prefered not to socialise. Being an unattatched, unaccompanied male has resulted in I am afraid to say some very negative experiences when it comes to trying to interact. Needless to say any reader that wishes to demonstrate different is more than welcome to drop me a line:)

DungeonSpain -> RE: International BDSM (11/27/2006 1:23:46 AM)
Hello Lord of Discipline Thank you for your observations. Apologies for delay in replying ... but as a capitalist imperialist, you will appreciate the necessity for commerce before play The Spanish partygoers do act in a chivalrous manner.... and this refers to both genders. Such activity is especially evident at the commencement of play. For example. at the party before last, one of the Dommes could not attend; nevertheless, her presence was represented by her a slave ... who would not look at all out of place advertising sweetcorn, if the Jolly Green Giant were for some reason, unavailable. He arrived with a written letter of homage to his Domme (she was in Argentina), and the group came together, allowing him to read aloud his epistle to all and sundry. The solemnity of the occasion could only be realised by those in attendance, for it was the very personification of true love ... not to mention .... dare I say it .... a moving experience for both of us (... and let me tell you, we've seen it all here !! Not a boast, merely a fact.) During the liturgy, said Jolly Giant giant was supported on both sides by naked (exceptfor collars) ladies who held candles ... and not just to assist his vision, and medieval music supplemented the impromptu ceremony. At the conclusion of this event, he was sobbing like a baby, leaving us both with lumps in our throats. (Can you believe that ?) At the next party, she was there, and asked us privately if we could reserve accommodation for them both. We did, of course (money makes the world go around !) At breakfast, the following morning, she informed us that she had permitted him to have sexual intercourse with her.. Regards from sunny Spain Jane and Stewart www.bondagedominationspain.com quote: ORIGINAL: LordODiscipline *LMAO...* *In my experience this is pretty freaking accurate...* *Let me ask you this -* *Are there any that seem to enjoy a "Chivalric" relational dynamic... you know the stereotype -* *Submissive on a pedestal,* *-adored,* *-her "gift" (submission) treated as though it were perfection incarnate?* *-Never asked to do anything which might discomfit her?* *Please, do tell - as this is apparently where the question stems from.* *Sincerely:* *~J, American Imperialist* quote: ORIGINAL: DungeonSpain Hi there We run a professionl dungeon here in Spain. Iron Damsel on is a native New Yorker (or as I prefer to refer to her a capitalist imperialist) and I am a Brit. Consequently in the last 6 years of business we have observed pretty well all aspects of the BDM scenes. Whilst individuals may vary from person to person, there are national characteristics which emanate from different groups. These aspects are particularly noticeable in the parties they organise and attend, at regular intervals. German parties ..... arrive, beat the crap out of each other, scream, shout, drink , etc ... and thoroughly enjoy themselves, then go home. Spaniards are big into rituals and there is considerable passion and emotion contained in their play. They, for example re-enact Inquisition scenes, with appropriate clothing. Dutch ... very nice respectable people ... chat a while, and then play ... very politely asking each other "Is this OK ?" ..."Is that OK ?", and so on. Very reserved. Brits tend to bicker amongst themselves, never know what they want to do, and are persitent moaners ... about everything ... the dungeon, each other, techniques, and are basically a pain in the butt ( ... and this comes from a Brit !!) Swedes and Scandinavians in general, are surprisingly hard players ... more so even than the Germans, but sophisticated with it. Yankee imperialists (no offence intended ... it's just how I see them) want everything perfect. They want it to be plastic wrapped and given to them in a smartly tied up gift box. They like to script their play, rather than have it evolve or rely on the circumstances. I could go on for we have a wide client base, but I shall not for fear that the reader (s) will nod off to sleep. In any event, this is how we see the different national characteristics. Regards from sunny Spain Jane and Stewart aka Iron Damsel and Highlander www.bondagedominationspain.com [Mod Note: email address removed]

agirl -> RE: International BDSM (11/27/2006 3:01:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sleazy Well now, having lived both sides of the atlantic I have developed some stereotypes from both real life & the net English, very strict with rigid rules, schoolroom and cane, victorian head of house etc. German, lots of leather/rubber, vampire/goth too American, more daddy/little girl types As said, purely stereotypes and not based on any persons I know living or dead :) I don't think many Brits would recognise that English stereotype. I have seen the word Daddy used a LOT more in American circles than in British ones, though. In the UK, it's not a preferred term at all for a dominant, unless you really are Daddy/little girl and predominantly into ageplay. I find it interesting that people use it for a dominant. The relating just tends to reflect the cultures, as far as I can tell. agirl

sleazy -> RE: International BDSM (11/27/2006 3:09:14 AM)
I must admit, I never really considered the stereotype of us brits until I started spending a lot of time the other side of the ocean and started conversing on a more regular basis with our cousins over there.

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