RE: Arguments and The D/s Relationship (Full Version)

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KnightofMists -> RE: Arguments and The D/s Relationship (11/27/2006 6:15:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I have not seen this come up in the months I have been posting here. I was wondering if those of you reading this think that arguing/conflict resolution/fighting, whatever one wants to call it, is a part of a Ds/Ms relationship. If you are involved in a relationship, do you ever argue? Do you have conflicts? How are they handled while respecting the power exchange?


I have read the thread... and frankly I would either have to ask each individual a couple question or make some assumptions on their answers.

The problem is the Term "Argue" is a neutral term and not actually a negative term as many seem to imply.

To "Argue" is to present reasons and arguements.  In essense, to argue is to have a state of differing opinions between two individuals. 

However, I think there is two different types of arguments.  Constructive and Destructive arguments.

I have alot of Constructive Arguments with my girls.  Now their is only three paths that a constructive argument will take.  I will change my view point and agree with the person I am arguing with.  I will change the person I am arguing with to my view point or we will agree to disagree.  These are the only three paths in my opinion to a Constructive agrument. 

But, don't confuse these three paths with the actions that could follow.   It is relevent that my girls would disagree  or agree with my choice.  The fact is that the Authority transfer over rides their opinion and choices of action.  I will gladly have constructive arguments from my girls because I desire to make the choice that give me the most positive consequences I can obtain.  However, after the arguments have been made... I will make the choice and the girls will obey.

Deconstructive Arguments have only one path in my thought process.  They lead to instability to the relationship.  I don't think Deconstructive Arguments ever have a place in a relationship, but they do occur for many.  Their are occassions that a constructive agrument between me and the girls must be put on hold because of the emotional state of an issue and prevent the argument from becoming destuctive.  Unfortunately, I think many arguments between individuals start out as constructive and because of many factors they find themselves in a destructive situations.  Unless an individuals (relationship) learns to prevent and state out of this state of interaction... it will only be a matter of time that the relationship will just skip Constructive Arguments and jump to the Destructive!

There has been many occassions of the years of my time with alandra and a few times with kyra that a agrument could of very easily lead into a destructive path.  It has take alot of effort and strength on everyone's part to avoid these situations.  In the end, we have found ourselves to be effective in staying out of this area.  Not always easy with very emotional passionate individuals.



ExtremeOwnerIL -> RE: Arguments and The D/s Relationship (11/27/2006 6:17:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tikkiee
Yes, I do tend to still bust out in an arguement at times. The same with conflict; I am constantly in conflict with myself; not with him though [&:]
 
As for how they are handled; right now, he is very gentle with me and yet the underlying command is still there. I know when I have crossed a line ; in those cases, it comes down to exactly what he wants only.


This echoes what I have with my girl. The lines are not crossed - but then, I believe that is WHY we don't argue. We are connected in a well balanced (for us) relationship where our morals, ethics and outlooks on life are very compatible. Differences are handled through discussion. Sometimes those discussions are rough and we both understand the human need to take a step back. We know our places, our responsibilities and we are comfortable with our roles.

As to the other post about early on the relationship - it's the same, but I think more time and communication is needed - as is patience. That was how it was for my girl and I.

Regards,
EO



juliaoceania -> RE: Arguments and The D/s Relationship (11/27/2006 7:00:09 AM)

quote:

The problem is the Term "Argue" is a neutral term and not actually a negative term as many seem to imply.

To "Argue" is to present reasons and arguements.  In essense, to argue is to have a state of differing opinions between two individuals. 

However, I think there is two different types of arguments.  Constructive and Destructive arguments.

I have alot of Constructive Arguments with my girls.  Now their is only three paths that a constructive argument will take.  I will change my view point and agree with the person I am arguing with.  I will change the person I am arguing with to my view point or we will agree to disagree.  These are the only three paths in my opinion to a Constructive agrument. 


I believe you were the only one that understood my use of the term. It seems logical to me that people will at times conflict, especially when things are new, or the relationship has a jolt.. new job, a move, a parent moves in.. that sort of thing. One does not have be yell, scream, call names to argue.. it is a conflicting idea of what should happen or what has happened. I do not scream at my Daddy and try hard not to  raise my voice when we disagree.

There is such a strong desire on both of our parts that things not devolve to a screaming match, I think that most people have to desire to not have that happen, but for some reason it just does. It does not mean I do not respect him that we disagree, need to talk something out, or have a differing opinion... I guess the overriding thing for me is this, even when I am angry in the back of my mind I am thinking how can I honor this relationship, him, and get my point across without saying something I would regret.. which would be to say something hurtful. That is at times tricky, but it is possible.



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Arguments and The D/s Relationship (11/27/2006 7:16:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
I have not seen this come up in the months I have been posting here. I was wondering if those of you reading this think that arguing/conflict resolution/fighting, whatever one wants to call it, is a part of a Ds/Ms relationship. If you are involved in a relationship, do you ever argue? Do you have conflicts? How are they handled while respecting the power exchange?

I think arguments can work just fine in authority based relationships- as long as the authority is ultimately respected.  This is true whether you're arguing over the call of a sports game, or arguing over hurt feelings within the relationship.

A lot of relationships disagree, in fact will go so far as to suggest the slave should not even have a QUESTION about the masters judgement/actions because it will upset the authority dynamic.  That seems to work for them, and like everything- plenty of people make it work.

Arguing can be very healthy and productive in relationships- whether it's couched in force play, a sudden outburst, or just growing pains.  As long as the basic relationship is respected, an argument won't damage anything.

And there's always the old saying- you don't know someone untile you've had a serious fight with them.



Lashra -> RE: Arguments and The D/s Relationship (11/27/2006 7:23:56 AM)

We do not argue anymore since we entered into a D/s relationship. Prior to that we had one or two but not that many. Now we do have discussions and an exchange of ideas/view points. He knows that I am the one in control, but that the lines of communication are always open.

Neither of us view arguing as constructive it just saps the energy and causes hard/hurt feelings. Having a meaningful discussion to work towards a positive outcome is much better.

~Lashra



juliaoceania -> RE: Arguments and The D/s Relationship (11/27/2006 7:27:02 AM)

quote:

And there's always the old saying- you don't know someone untile you've had a serious fight with them.


I think there may very well be a truth to this, perhaps not a universal one, but truth nonetheless. How I know that an argument was successful? Both people feel better about the relationship than they did before it happened... and when you find someone that you can conflict with yet feel that way, it is a pretty special thing. It is the "work" part of the relationship in my eyes, and anything worth having is worth working for.. still, I would hope that is work that rarely needs doing[;)]



ownedgirlie -> RE: Arguments and The D/s Relationship (11/27/2006 8:08:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I believe you were the only one that understood my use of the term.

Well gee, next time explain what you mean when you ask a question, rather than criticize everyone's answers in one fell swoop when the majority thinks you meant something else! [;)]

I think most people automatically think of argue as something negative because that has been their experience with it.  Most people answer questions based on how it relates to them.  So when people are answering "Do you argue?" their minds instantly go to their experiences (the ones that stand out, anyway) of what an argument is.  Telling someone "You were the only one who understood" implies that nobody else did, and therefore our answers are somehow incorrect.

Anyway.  I still stand by my response.  Arguing to me does not automatically mean raising my voice.  I am allowed to state my concerns in an appropriate manner - calmly, well thought out, rationally.  I suppose you could say I am posing my argument to his choices in such a case.  The thing is, that rarely happens anymore, if ever.  I accept his choices, period.  If I have a concern, I will say, "I am concerned that such n such might be a consequence of that." but I won't say "I don't think you should do that because of XYZ."  One is a stated concern, the other is an argument whether it's a compelling one or not. 

As to the person who asked how we got to this point - time, growing trust, and a deepened level of submission, in my case.  Not an easy trek, by any means.  Prior to arriving at this point, once I started getting riled, or repeating my argument (as though he somehow did not comprehend it the first time) he would shut me down and end the conversation until I could calm my mind and think rationally again. KoM mentioned passionate individuals, and I sooo relate to that.  My Master understands this passion in me so he gave me time to develop my new & improved skills of thinking my thoughts through before reacting.



Kalira -> RE: Arguments and The D/s Relationship (11/27/2006 8:12:08 AM)

When I hear the word argue, I always tend to think in terms of raised voices, "I am right, you are wrong" kind of thing. What you and both KoM are talking about, I would see more as 'debating' and not arguing.

Master and I debate quite a bit; he encourages it. He likes to hear my views on things, whether they be related to our relationship or just about a football game that I was screaming at [:)]

However, when it comes right down to it, in the end, his word is final. And there is no debate about that.



LaTigresse -> RE: Arguments and The D/s Relationship (11/27/2006 8:50:47 AM)

I would echo what KoM has already written. I do not like to fight or the deconstructive argue. I prefer to have everyone calm down and discuss it like rational adults. I like to keep an open mind,  I am not the All Knowing All Seeing "One" however, ultimately after all the discussing and thinking....it will be my way. It just may be a revision of my previous "way". 



PapiNsweet -> RE: Arguments and The D/s Relationship (11/27/2006 9:14:31 AM)

my Master HATES argument of any kind between us. and by argument i am referring to KoM's definition. while he does not expect me to agree with every viewpoint of his or every decision he makes, he does not really want to hear my opposing viewpoint or questions in such matters, unless he asks me directly, and even in those cases i must strive to give the most simple direct answer, and not expoud on my viewpoint, or else it has crossed the line into arguing, and that is something he cannot tolerate. there have been many occasions where sharing my opposing opinion with him, or politely questioning a decision of his has led to yelling and angry words, but it is one-sided...he yells at me but i would never dream of even slightly raising my voice to him.

it can be frustrating sometimes because i love good, respectful debate. it was the favorite pasttime of my friends and i in high school. there were never any hurt feelings or anger, it was just a sharing of opposing viewpoints. sometimes i wish i could have that sort of thing with my Master, but it's just not something he desires from a slave. so instead he lets me come online and argue with total strangers. ;)


(this is daddysprop247 btw..dang Masters never signing out)



juliaoceania -> RE: Arguments and The D/s Relationship (11/27/2006 9:21:39 AM)

quote:

Well gee, next time explain what you mean when you ask a question, rather than criticize everyone's answers in one fell swoop when the majority thinks you meant something else

I was not criticizing you ownedgirlie, I was agreeing with KOM. I do not know about most people and how they define argue but there are entire worksops dedicated to "fighting fairly and constructively", but I did include "conflict resolution" in my post. It was not an insult to anyone, I was clarifying. Perhaps you did not mean to sound a little snippy there, but to me you did. Your response is noted, not all people live the same way, resolve their issues the same way, nor should they.




crouchingtigress -> RE: Arguments and The D/s Relationship (11/27/2006 9:24:07 AM)

i thought she was being cheeky....because of the smilie, it was more playful to me, anyways....



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Arguments and The D/s Relationship (11/27/2006 9:27:45 AM)

Meta/Thread jump you should all feel free to ignore:

I also admit I find irony in the fact that so many masters claim to want intelligent/articulate subs...and yet forbid questioning/arguing from their sub.  To me, questioning and forming good arguments is a tremendous sign of intelligence and its usage.

Not that one needs to be able to question/argue to be a good slave (although in most cases it helps), I just think most doms really DON'T want or have no idea how to handle an intelligent slave/sub who will express their intelligence beyond synchophantic parroting, but say otherwise to sound attractive.

To Prop:  You're excluded here because I believe your master was fully open and honest about what he expected and thus not part of that group.



daddysprop247 -> RE: Arguments and The D/s Relationship (11/27/2006 9:47:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Meta/Thread jump you should all feel free to ignore:

I also admit I find irony in the fact that so many masters claim to want intelligent/articulate subs...and yet forbid questioning/arguing from their sub.  To me, questioning and forming good arguments is a tremendous sign of intelligence and its usage.

Not that one needs to be able to question/argue to be a good slave (although in most cases it helps), I just think most doms really DON'T want or have no idea how to handle an intelligent slave/sub who will express their intelligence beyond synchophantic parroting, but say otherwise to sound attractive.

To Prop:  You're excluded here because I believe your master was fully open and honest about what he expected and thus not part of that group.


actually LA, i wonder why you find something contradictory about a Master wanting an intelligent and articulate slave yet not wishing to argue with or be questioned by that slave? there are other ways to show one's intelligence without arguing or questioning, or interrupting the power dynamic. the last thing my Master wants is a dullard for a slave...and he is quick to say to anyone we meet that my mind was one of the first things that attracted him to me.

so while no i cannot argue/debate with him, or take it upon myself to question him, my intelligence still serves him in all i do for him, from housework to his academic pursuits. and he still loves a good thought provoking discussion between us, just sans debate.



whisperedsighs -> RE: Arguments and The D/s Relationship (11/27/2006 9:48:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I have not seen this come up in the months I have been posting here. I was wondering if those of you reading this think that arguing/conflict resolution/fighting, whatever one wants to call it, is a part of a Ds/Ms relationship. If you are involved in a relationship, do you ever argue? Do you have conflicts? How are they handled while respecting the power exchange?




I would think it would depend on what is being argued about.  There are things that are much more life oriented, fincances, health, family etc., that would be a completely different argument then personal conflicts between the two of you.  I see many post the respectful aspect of never calling names and trying to discuss things instead of argue, which I agree with.



happypervert -> RE: Arguments and The D/s Relationship (11/27/2006 9:55:40 AM)

quote:

I just think most doms really DON'T want or have no idea how to handle an intelligent slave/sub who will express their intelligence beyond synchophantic parroting, but say otherwise to sound attractive.

I think think this raises the issue of the difference between a discussion and an argument. It's great for the submissive to voice a different opinion so the dom has more info to consider, and that would be described as a discussion. It can become an argument if the submissive goes on and on like a broken record in an effort to change the dom's mind.

But I suspect that could happen to doms who actually do want smart subs; the others that you describe don't want someone smart enough to even respectfully disagree.



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Arguments and The D/s Relationship (11/27/2006 9:58:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247
actually LA, i wonder why you find something contradictory about a Master wanting an intelligent and articulate slave yet not wishing to argue with or be questioned by that slave?


I think I covered that when I said "Not that one needs to be able to question/argue to be a good slave"



slavemaia -> RE: Arguments and The D/s Relationship (11/27/2006 10:03:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
I have not seen this come up in the months I have been posting here. I was wondering if those of you reading this think that arguing/conflict resolution/fighting, whatever one wants to call it, is a part of a Ds/Ms relationship. If you are involved in a relationship, do you ever argue? Do you have conflicts? How are they handled while respecting the power exchange?


What a great topic. Thank you julia. i hate to admit it, but yes, i do argue with Master. But little by little i'm learning that what works far better is discussion or stating my views in a respectful manner. i think i learned to argue a long time ago because i wasn't heard and what i felt and needed wasn't respected. But *smiles* that is no longer the case. So - practice makes perfect. It does doesn't it?



Missokyst -> RE: Arguments and The D/s Relationship (11/27/2006 10:12:42 AM)

Most of my ds relationships have been what some consider long term.  That is, over the honeymoon phase (5+).  Yes, we have argued, disagreed, and made-up.  I tend to choose someone like me, who does not yell.  Arguments have never been extreme.  And it is OK to argue when you enjoy your partner as a human as well as a dominant.  If he is secure enough, he might not even feel threatened.  And I LOVE that in a person!  It only makes me want to be with them more.  It makes me want to slip back into that submissiveness that they inspired from me.
I think that most people who are secure in themselves don't have to resort childish behavior.  An argument is simply a disagreement.  Handled well, it is settled and people move on with their lives.
Kyst



Wildfleurs -> RE: Arguments and The D/s Relationship (11/27/2006 10:15:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I have not seen this come up in the months I have been posting here. I was wondering if those of you reading this think that arguing/conflict resolution/fighting, whatever one wants to call it, is a part of a Ds/Ms relationship. If you are involved in a relationship, do you ever argue? Do you have conflicts? How are they handled while respecting the power exchange?


We've had a couple of straight up arguements and they weren't remotely pleasant or easy (in many ways just to have it I had to fight against my instincts of how to react to him).  It happens fairly rarely, I can only think of a few instances over the several years we've been together. 

We have had conflicts and disagreements, and what I tend to do in those situations is use a lot of *I* statement (talk about how I feel rather than trying to assign blame) and also I have found that touch is really important for us in terms of difusing arguements.  If I sit at his feet, or touch him while we are disagreeing or dealing with a conflict it really helps in terms of neither of us getting carried away or super upset.

C~



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