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Evening With a Colonal - 11/28/2006 4:40:54 PM   
caitlyn


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Our relative, the army Colonal is on leave from Iraq, here for two weeks. We had a wonderful party for him ... everyone who is anyone in our family was there.
 
Late in the evening, when all the wives, etc ... were off talking about whatever they talk about, I sat with the men and listened as they discussed the war. They let me stay ... I was wearing a tight top.
 
Some casual observations, directly from a man at the front (and certainly not a Republican man, rest assured). All these points are what was presented by the Colonal.
 
The men on the ground still have a lot of faith in the mission, don't think we are losing the war, and want to stay.
 
You never see any media outside the green zone. The troops laugh at the stories we are being given by the press, because they are so obviously bullshit, so as to be laughable.
 
There are two types of IED's. One is the home made type and is really not a threat. It might blow of a tire or mess up a transmission, but isn't a real danger to men inside armored hummers. As a side note, the Colonal insisted that unarmored hummers are not allowed outside the green zone. The second type of IED is imported from Iran and is very dangerous. Most of the cobat casualties are from these types.
 
The troops are glad that Rummy is gone, and believe it or not, are pretty much glad that the Democrats are in control of Congres, because they believe this will lead to more troops. These troops would be used to secure the Iran/Iraq border and drastically cut down on the very dangerous imported IED's.
 
This part baffled me, and to be honest, I'm having a hard time buying it ... but this post is about raw data, not anyone's opinion (other than the Colonal's, of course). Only about half of the American casualties are from combat operations. About 20% are training accidents that would happen even if these troops were not in Iraq. 10% are just stupidity, like driving around in a hummer with the windows down (this seems like a combatl casualty to me, but again, this is just presentation of information). 15% are troops engaging in things they shouldn't be doing ... the Colonal mentioned there were a lot of "Kelly's Hero's" in Iraq. 5% were suicides, which I find most distressing.
 
There is no civil war in Iraq, according to the Colonal, and if the press would get out in harms way, they would know this. He says what is going on is strictly urban gang warfare, much like the Crips and Bloods. Again, I'm not sure I buy this, but the information is, what it is.
 
Iraqi troops torture just about any prisoner they capture. American troops try to stop it, but all that does is make the Iraqi troops not bring them in. I'm making the assumption that the same applies to British troops, but that was never mentioned in the discussion.
 
American civilians are making mad jack in Iraq, and that is really pissing off our troops. The Colonal mentioned that many of his support staff was being used as combat troops and that civilians were taking their place.
 
He said that there have been no instances of Iraqi's using children as terrorist bombers. Iraqi's have a lot of love for their children and he doubts that children will ever be used to attack soldiers. Not so for women. He said that women very rarely know they are going to be bombers. They are told to take the car to the market and end up being in an explosive vehicle.
 
A long topic of discussion was corruption within the Iraqi forces. He categorized them as very brave, but very porly trained and very corrupt. He is dead set against pushing them towards quick self governing, and he insists that they are not even close to ready.
 
He said the lack of body armor is complete bullshit and always has been ... period. He said that most of the letters home bitching about body armor, were guys trying to get out and finding almost anything to gripe about. He said that the press keeps counting guys inside tanks, not wearing body armor when they make their calculations, and that nobody wears body armor in a tank.
 
That's about all that I can remember before the Crown took hold. It was an interesting night.
 
As a disclaimer, I'm sure some will flame away ... but to repeat, this is a presentation of information taken from a conversation from someone that is actually there, and in no way a presentation of anyone's opinion on any of this ... especially mine.
 
I'm sure I'll get flamed anyway.
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RE: Evening With a Colonal - 11/28/2006 5:12:42 PM   
sleazy


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An interesting post, one I agree with in some respects, but one that sadly does not apply in other respects to British troops out there.

The point I agree most with is the concept of "gang" warfare, that fits in perfectly with the reports I get, ones that come from on the ground, but from neither the military nor the media, and very rarely from within the green zone. As for the bravery of the iraqi forces, easy to be brave with a gun in your hand and "official authourity" against a populace that have lived under oppression for years. Reports I have see it as most join either to be paid and protected or because they are on a power trip and want to make the law and enforce it in their own ways.

There are media outside the green zone, they are just not officially sanctioned, nor do they generaly belong to the big networks or get the airtime. In fact unless sanctioned a media representative has almost no chance of entering the green zone. 

For the brits, the lack of armour is and always has been a very serious issue, take our "snatch" vehicles, designed originally some 30 or so years ago for an urban conflict where the normal weapon of choice was a petrol bomb or house bricks, certainly not suitable for the kind of environment they are operating in now. I know people taking vests out as personal luggage in fair quantities for giving to the troops on the ground, but then us brits have a long history if sending ill-equipped troops on seemingly impossible missions.

Whilst many have thought the brits well equipped for using the military as a police force after all the Ulster years, Isreal, Yemen, Aden, the list goes on. In almost all the other instances at least part of the populace were for the troops, it seems in Iraq there are almost none wanting the coalition forces there no matter if they agreed with the original "liberation" or not.





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RE: Evening With a Colonal - 11/28/2006 5:30:46 PM   
UtopianRanger


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quote:


The troops are glad that Rummy is gone, and believe it or not, are pretty much glad that the Democrats are in control of Congres, because they believe this will lead to more troops. These troops would be used to secure the Iran/Iraq border and drastically cut down on the very dangerous imported IED's.


Caitlyn..... this was an excellent post by you, I enjoyed reading it.

I'm out the door so I'm just going to comment on this one part :

Yours/the Colonel's excerpt regarding the non-securing of Iraq's borders is the biggest blunder in the execution stage of the war.

I think this alone is good enough to impeach the whole administration.



- R
 



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RE: Evening With a Colonal - 11/28/2006 5:45:05 PM   
LotusSong


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<<making mad jack in Iraq>>  What does this mean?
 
And I think you need to send this to Glenn Beck.

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RE: Evening With a Colonal - 11/28/2006 5:56:32 PM   
WyrdRich


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong
 
And I think you need to send this to Glenn Beck.



     Excellent idea, Lotus.  That will make it ever so much easier for the knee-jerking, hate-filled liberals to dismiss.  God forbid someone should shatter their propaganda and delusions with actual facts from the ground, that aren't based on a political agenda...

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RE: Evening With a Colonal - 11/28/2006 6:11:13 PM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

<<making mad jack in Iraq>>  What does this mean?
 
And I think you need to send this to Glenn Beck.


BIG Bucks



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RE: Evening With a Colonal - 11/28/2006 7:03:47 PM   
LotusSong


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich

quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong
 
And I think you need to send this to Glenn Beck.



  Excellent idea, Lotus.  That will make it ever so much easier for the knee-jerking, hate-filled liberals to dismiss.  God forbid someone should shatter their propaganda and delusions with actual facts from the ground, that aren't based on a political agenda...


Isn't it Glenn that is stressing we need more body armor?  That the Iraqis are inept?  Where we can train our troops in 6 weeks.. and in how many YEARS now they STILL haven't "gotten it"?  There is no need.. we are fighting FOR them.  The Colonel sort of blows holes in all of Bush's hysteria he spews using Beck's  program.  If I ever meet Beck..I'll have to ask him what Bush's ass tastes like.

I admire you Rich.. you are going down fighting like the little trooper that you are.

< Message edited by LotusSong -- 11/28/2006 7:18:31 PM >


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RE: Evening With a Colonal - 11/28/2006 7:13:28 PM   
LotusSong


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

<<making mad jack in Iraq>>  What does this mean?
 
And I think you need to send this to Glenn Beck.


BIG Bucks


Ah thank you.  I thought I was going to have to shorten the leash on Slave Jack.

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RE: Evening With a Colonal - 11/28/2006 8:55:26 PM   
dcnovice


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Caitlyn ---

Really interesting, thanks. It's nice to hear, via you, from someone who's really been there.

Humble suggestion: You may want to think of retitling the thread, if possible, so that the content is clearer. Maybe "A Soldier's View of Iraq" or somesuch. Just a thought.

DC

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RE: Evening With a Colonal - 11/28/2006 9:51:20 PM   
popeye1250


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Caitlyn, thanks, good thread.
So now Bush wants more Troops to guard Iraq's border while we have none on our Mexican border where they're needed!
If the terrorists want to attack the U.S. again all they need do is march right in in broad feckin daylight over that Mexican border!
What happens to people who go to Yale to make them soooo fuckin stupid?
First Clinton and now this moron.
I will never vote for, do business with, or have any dealings with someone who went to Yale. Period.
Yup, fight the terrorists in Iraq and let them right in the back door!
Makes sense to me!

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RE: Evening With a Colonal - 11/28/2006 10:11:36 PM   
juliaoceania


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I am not going to flame, but I will say that there are a few logical discrepancies I see..one of which is "gang warfare" not being civil war. If this is indeed gang warfare (as he called it) I would have to ask how much civil society has failed to cause this level of death from it in Iraq. The thing is how can one tell the difference between a gang and a militia force without knowing the language and the players involved? The US military could be called a "gang" to some... it just makes no sense to be dismissive of this being a civil war because of how the factions are comprised.

The second more disturbing aspect to this dismissiveness about gangs and not civil war is that if Iran is arming sides in this confict that is very dire for the "gang" theory to the violence in Iraq... you do not arm street thugs that have only profit in mind and not political gains in their heads... and to me that is the difference between a "street gang" and a militia.

The second aspect I would like to address is the  idea that the troops are behind this and feel the mission is viable. I do not know how one could say this as an officer, what are the troops going to say to their superior? Thousands are going to Canada rather than face going back for a 3rd, 4th, or in some cases 5th tour of duty. In addition to this, it is tempting to throw good after bad if you are in a conflict like this.. too much of our blood has been spilled not to accomplish the mission that so many have died for. Can some of this zeal not to give up be explained by not wanting to have lost soldiers on a fool's errand? The level of suicides alone speaks volumes to whether or not the troops are behind "staying the course", and the desire for more troops to join the conflict speaks of a desire to be done with it, and perhaps be relieved of combat duty by fresh boots?Just some thoughts.

Some of the best reporting about this being a civil war does come from outside the green zone, and this reporting has been going on for quite a while, Juan Cole may ring a bell, as do a few others.

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RE: Evening With a Colonal - 11/29/2006 5:41:09 AM   
Termyn8or


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It is gang warfare, our "gang" wants control. Not only of the oil, but the region.

I agree that there has been more spin put on the whole subject than a superconductor suspended by a magnetic field, but I am in no way a bleeding heart liberal. More of a realist I would say.

Winning the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people is impossible, especially now that the poor soldiers without body armor have used tanks against the civilian population of a sovereign land, for the express purpose of exploiting their natural resources. Now that they have littered depleted uranium all over the place, instead of paying to have it properly disposed of, now that they blew up the main TV network, now that they have destroyed the infrastructure.

The only way to hold that turf is by force. That is fine, that's how tyrants hold power anywhere. The thing is, I am tired of having what they do connected to what I believe, because no such connection really exists. I would not only try the neocons, I would execute them by slow torture. To each and every one, I would bring their firstborn son, and they would see him die, before they die.

Call me a bleeding heart liberal after that. Let's get real, we need to execute alot of people. Every time someone got off on insanity I'd send them to Kevorkian. Crime of passion ? Prison will help them find a new passion. Defective offspring ? Free medical care, including sterilization. Refuse if you want.

If someone attacked this country with the intent of taking it over I would fully support taking each and every one of them and cutting their legs off with a chainsaw and letting them bleed to feath, but then, has that happened ? Iraq-Al Queda links have been disproved, in fact proven to be a farce.

Fact of the matter is, Saddam Hussein ws going to kick the US economy in the balls really hard by switching to Euros. With the unbelievable amount of US currency in Iraqi banks they obviously intended to dump the dollars afterwards, making the little plan all the more effective. They showed you all the money they found in Iraqi banks, but did they show you where it went ? I must have missed it.

Took a year or so, but they pumped over $20 billion in Iraq oil and pocketed the money. Did our tax dollars get reimbursed ? Hell no.

Tell your Colonel to get outta there before the neocons shove their head up their ass a bit more and decide they want Iran as well. The President babbled that we can't pull out,,,, of Iraq and Afganistan. Is he secure in the thought that we have won the hearts and minds of the people in all the other countries we occupy ? If we have, why do we occupy them ?

I appreciate the intent, bravery and resolve of soldiers, but in this case not their actions. I can think of about 500 people who need to be executed along with their kids, and each one of them was elected in a corrupt system, in which the voters voted for the lesser of two evils, or so they thought.

That's how we got here.

T

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RE: Evening With a Colonal - 11/29/2006 10:03:36 AM   
slaveMastery


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Great insights and post - thanks for sharing!

And to think that they only wanted you there for the tight top!

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RE: Evening With a Colonal - 11/29/2006 10:27:47 AM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

There is no civil war in Iraq, according to the Colonal, and if the press would get out in harms way, they would know this. He says what is going on is strictly urban gang warfare, much like the Crips and Bloods. Again, I'm not sure I buy this, but the information is, what it is.
 


Hello A/all,

I am a little puzzled by this assertion, moreso because I know something about urban gang warfare as practiced by the typical street gangs in the United States than about the war in Iraq.

Street gangs in Los Angeles originally developed around neighborhoods in the 1960s as an outgrowth of a social movement going back earlier to the Zoot suiters of the 1940s.  Initially, the Bloods tended to be Hispanic and sought to control the drug trafficking of marijuana and heroin.  The Crips tended to be african-american and sought to control drug trafficking of cocaine.  The preferred weapons when these gangs had their wars were bottles, knives, sticks, etc., which changed around the time the movie Zapata with Marlon Brando came out.  This movie had a poster showing a proud Mexican with a gun in his hand.  According to my professor when I was studying American gang culture, a former blood who got his PhD in prison, sociologically this is considered the catalyst to turn street warfare into armed combat with guns.

Gangs were known for legacy members; i.e. sons and daughters of former gang members were brought into the gang as the elders "retired" from life in a street gang.

The gangs tended to be heavily influenced by their drug of choice.  Heroin and marijuana tended to make people get mellow and break the law on a small scale to score their next high.  Cocaine tended to make people paranoid, aggressive, angry, etc., and have to resort to breaking the law on a large scale to score their next high. 

Fast forward to the modern world and you see much more of a blurring between the racial distinctions and drug of choice, as both Bloods and Crip gangs struggle to control the drugs of choice in the modern world; crystal methamphetamine and crack cocaine.  There is some drug trafficking of the other drugs, but these dont bring the large money sums that the two I mentioned do.

Gangs tend to be located in a specific territory.  I live relatively near to the neighborhoods of a couple of gangs, although for geographical reasons (I live in what is essentially a cul d' sac as cities go, there are only two or three ways out of the city, so there is an element of claustrophobia among gang members embarking on criminal activity; they would prefer to go somewhere you can drive in any direction freely to escape) the city I live in tends to not be overly afflicted by gang activity you would see in central Los Angeles.  Gangs seldom commit crimes in their own neighborhood, preferring to drive to other territories.  While there is some gang violence associated with staking out drug territories, the banal drive by shooting aspects of the gangs tend to be payback for something the people in a gang's neighborhood inflicted on the gang doing the shooting's neighborhood yesterday.

To bring it back to what the Colonel was saying, I am a bit puzzled by his assertion that the warfare in Iraq has any relation at all to gang warfare in the United States.  I have not read anything about a burgeoning drug culture in Iraq.  What I would imagine he is trying to say is that Iraq has a largely decentralized resistance movement broken up into small cells involved in acts of mayhem and violence against the US occupation forces.  In other words, 5 friends import an IED from Iran and set it up on the road to blow up people.  Capture those 5, and you have no connection to finding others.  The problem with this sort of thing is that the only real solution involves killing everybody, which has real similarities to the actual method whereby the United States could have "won" the war in Vietnam.

I disagree that adding more troops will allow the United States to "win" the war in Iraq, because I tend to think there will always be 5 more friends who want to import something to kill people.

And as Popeye pointed out, we cannot even seal our own border, how exactly do we propose to seal the borders in Iraq?

Just me, etc.

Sinergy

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RE: Evening With a Colonal - 11/29/2006 10:45:07 AM   
popeye1250


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Synergy, if I lived out there I'd be painting that gang grafitti everywhere!
Gang "A's" grafitti or markings in gang b, c, and d's "turf" etc.
What do they call that "dissing" or something like that?

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RE: Evening With a Colonal - 11/29/2006 10:56:07 AM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Synergy, if I lived out there I'd be painting that gang grafitti everywhere!
Gang "A's" grafitti or markings in gang b, c, and d's "turf" etc.
What do they call that "dissing" or something like that?



"Dissing" is a contraction of the word disrespecting.  Not sure that is an actual word form (making a noun into a verb) but it is in common usage.

If you really want to diss a particular gang, go find where they have put graffiti of their names on the wall and start drawing X's through the names.  This indicates that you plan on terminating their existence in a violent nature.  Make sure you tag your own name next to it, as well as your gang affiliation, so they know what neighborhood to go shoot up.

If you are lucky, the police will arrest you for the crime of vandalism before you are shot and killed or beaten and left for dead by the gang members you just disrespected.

Just me, etc.

Sinergy

p.s. on a related note, not all street gangs are violent or involved in drug trafficking.  In the relatively lawless inner-city society, people will form into gangs to protect each other, but dont necessarily go out of their way to commit crimes or engage in violent activities. 

p.p.s. the name is spelled with an "I" and not a "Y."  S"i"nergy.



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RE: Evening With a Colonel - 11/29/2006 10:59:33 AM   
LotusSong


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Synergy, if I lived out there I'd be painting that gang graffiti everywhere!
Gang "A's" graffiti or markings in gang b, c, and d's "turf" etc.
What do they call that "dissing" or something like that?

The best way I heard to combat gang graffiti is to get a stencil that reads "sucks!" and every time you see a gang name on the wall or whatever..spay paint the stencil over it :)

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RE: Evening With a Colonel - 11/29/2006 11:01:23 AM   
slaveMastery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

The best way I heard to combat gang graffiti is to get a stencil that reads "sucks!" and every time you see a gang name on the wall or whatever..spay paint the stencil over it :)


I'd love to see how many times you managed to do that in urban Baghdad and live to tell about it.

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RE: Evening With a Colonel - 11/29/2006 11:08:20 AM   
stef


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong
The best way I heard to combat gang graffiti is to get a stencil that reads "sucks!" and every time you see a gang name on the wall or whatever..spay paint the stencil over it :)

Yes, defacing a gang tag is a brilliant move.  People have been killed for doing that. 

~stef

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RE: Evening With a Colonel - 11/29/2006 11:52:27 AM   
LotusSong


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quote:

ORIGINAL: stef

quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong
The best way I heard to combat gang graffiti is to get a stencil that reads "sucks!" and every time you see a gang name on the wall or whatever..spay paint the stencil over it :)

Yes, defacing a gang tag is a brilliant move.  People have been killed for doing that. 

~stef


Live on your feet or die on your knees, I say

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