The Influence Myth

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meatcleaver -> The Influence Myth (11/30/2006 1:32:45 AM)
Fellow Brits please read and digest. What many rational Brits knew all along is pretty much admitted here. Britain has no influence in the USA and as far as my reading of history, never has. So what the fuck are we doing in Iraq and Afghanistan? Why aren't we standing by the French and German view of the world which is far more rational and far less paranoid than Washington's view? http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2478925,00.html We all knew Blair sold us down the river. Now Parliament should impeach him as criminally negligent and as a war criminal.

sleazy -> RE: The Influence Myth (11/30/2006 2:21:43 AM)
I would argue the no influence point, on a scale of 1-100 we score a 1, where every other country scores a 0. More a case of very minimal influence rather than none. After all where else can they get old college papers to pretend are intelligence estimates to justify war - certainly not the French :) Who was more stupid, Blair for presenting them, or Bush for accepting them, well thats a matter for several pints on a friday night in its own right. I am not convinced that the French and Germans are any less paranoid or protectionist in their outlook, in fact they are far more insular, ignore the world and it will ignore us, not a good philosphy at all in my book. No matter who likes it or not, (ready for flames from our cousins on the other side of the ocean), to remain a world player the US needs the UK politically because they need us militarily. The US would never be able to stage out of Spain or Turkey to project force this side of the world the way they can use the UK (remember Tripoli anyone?). On the flipside the entire economy east of the M11 would fall apart without Lakenheath & Mildenhall swelling the population and pouring in money should the americans be asked to leave. Yes Im jaded and have a very unconventional view point, perhaps because professionally I am paid to be paranoid, and have a rather unusual trees/forest problem with many parts of the world political spectrum. The failure of Blair with the US is the least of his problems, he has more than enough domestic issues that should have him evicted from office.

UtopianRanger -> RE: The Influence Myth (11/30/2006 2:32:32 AM)
quote: Britain has no influence in the USA and as far as my reading of history, never has. So what the fuck are we doing in Iraq and Afghanistan? Why aren't we standing by the French and German view of the world which is far more rational and far less paranoid than Washington's view Ah....The London-New York power axis - They influence each other. Or, as some would say, the Zionist’s influence both of them [;)] - R

sleazy -> RE: The Influence Myth (11/30/2006 2:41:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Britain has no influence in the USA and as far as my reading of history, never has. Just found my pedantic hat, we used to have a fair bit of influence over that side of the atlantic, we once owned it unil we decided it wasnt worth putting up more than a token fight for it :) I did wonder how long it would be before I found zion mentioned on one of the political threads here :)

MrrPete -> RE: The Influence Myth (11/30/2006 3:11:59 AM)
I don't know the Beatles had a tremendous effect on the US. and still do. [:D] If we're such an evil country, as many of our OWN citizens think, and people on this board, why are so many people trying to get here? Legally.

FangsNfeet -> RE: The Influence Myth (11/30/2006 3:21:51 AM)
Englands involvment with the US has something to do with the UN, business in Africa, and WWII. Other than that, it's freedom versus terrorisim. Which do you really want to prevail? As for France and Germany, they are no longer Power Nations. Everyone is only out to get Number One. Since only the most powerful are dispised, France and Germany have little to fear as they'll just hate the US and England as well.

sleazy -> RE: The Influence Myth (11/30/2006 3:26:52 AM)
Well personally speaking, I much preffered my many months in the US to being here. Is it perfect, far from it. Is it the place I found most favourable to my wants, needs and ideals, for quite some time it was and could be again one day. Maybe the US is evil, but perhaps just not as evil, and perhaps with a better chance of redemption. I've met many americans I didnt like, and met many more I did like, that is a universal constant, no matter the country some residents I find to be nice folks, some I find to be less agreeable. Do I agree with US foriegn policy, or even UK ones, not always but short of getting up off my backside and voting there is little I can do as the bank refused me a loan to finance a coup d'etat. Unfortunately there is only one person better able to run this or any other country than taxi drivers, hair stylists or forum posters, and that is me :)

caitlyn -> RE: The Influence Myth (11/30/2006 6:01:02 AM)
I think the funniest shit I have ever heard on this board, is the idea that the UK should ditch the United States, to cuddle up to Germany. [;)][;)] General comment ... we really don't need to freak out like scared cats in a highway intersecton ... just because a few things have gone wrong.

meatcleaver -> RE: The Influence Myth (11/30/2006 6:47:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: caitlyn I think the funniest shit I have ever heard on this board, is the idea that the UK should ditch the United States, to cuddle up to Germany. [;)][;)] General comment ... we really don't need to freak out like scared cats in a highway intersecton ... just because a few things have gone wrong. The OP wasn't a criticism of the US like some people appear to be taking it but a criticism of Britain and its delusional view it has some influence in Washington. If people said Britain had some influence in Moscow and went to fight in Cechnya, I would call that delusional too.

LotusSong -> RE: The Influence Myth (11/30/2006 7:16:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Fellow Brits please read and digest. What many rational Brits knew all along is pretty much admitted here. Britain has no influence in the USA and as far as my reading of history, never has. So what the fuck are we doing in Iraq and Afghanistan? Why aren't we standing by the French and German view of the world which is far more rational and far less paranoid than Washington's view? http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2478925,00.html We all knew Blair sold us down the river. Now Parliament should impeach him as criminally negligent and as a war criminal. Most people will be transfixed on an auto accident in progress. Fear not. To quote our beloved former President, B.J.Clinton, "I feel your pain".

seeksfemslave -> RE: The Influence Myth (11/30/2006 7:26:04 AM)
Your point Meatcleaver is bloodie obviously true. The only reason we , as in our political establishment, pay lip service to the so called special relationship is that it allows us, ie Brit politicians, to prance about on the World stage. Still think getting rid of Saddam was no bad thing tho'. !!!! the killing required excepted, but I dont think he would have left had we just asked him to go.

Morrigel -> RE: The Influence Myth (11/30/2006 7:38:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Fellow Brits please read and digest. What many rational Brits knew all along is pretty much admitted here. Britain has no influence in the USA and as far as my reading of history, never has. So what the fuck are we doing in Iraq and Afghanistan? What are Brits doing in Afghanistan and Iraq? The same thing a cuckold slave does in the bedroom with his mistress. [;)] The British Empire can't get it up any more, but they still like sniffing around while other people pump their old stomping ground for blood and oil. All jokes aside--the real benefits of cooperating with the USA are mainly financial, I would think. British Petroleum gets a little cut of the black gold, but moreover, since 9-11 London has become the new financial center of the world. --M

meatcleaver -> RE: The Influence Myth (11/30/2006 8:00:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Morrigel All jokes aside--the real benefits of cooperating with the USA are mainly financial, I would think. British Petroleum gets a little cut of the black gold, but moreover, since 9-11 London has become the new financial center of the world. --M If only this was true. Britain performs no better than France or Germany in regard to trade with the US and French and Spanish belligerence hasn't affected their trade with the US. My thinking is the same as seeks (and your observation), the delusion allows British politicians to appear to have a functioning dick on the world stage.

vield -> RE: The Influence Myth (11/30/2006 8:03:12 AM)
This is an unexpected and interesting thread! My perspective from here in the USA is that historically the best interests of the UK have been served by maintaining a balance of power between the european nations. These are the folks near enough to try to come across the channel if they have the power. Thus if France is very strong one supports the Germans, if Germany is very powerful one supports France or Russia, and so forth. Frequently the UK has attempted similar balance of power situations in other parts of the world too, though these have often not turned out as expected. The USA seems an afterthought to the UK, possibly because it has not had military conquest designs on the UK. Most of our mutual miltary tiffs have been due to inadvertant reactions to stupid interactions in which we have offended each other. As currently the USA is the one country with military power far beyond the rest, it is a cost effective and sensible policy to infuence the USA toward goals the UK finds atttractive by cooperating with them in some situations. I expect this cooperation brings the UK support in a number of areas not fully understood by the general public. LOL, recruiting a few divisions of Ghurkas to offer would likely be even more cost effective than sending planes and ships. Of course that has been done before. vield

sleazy -> RE: The Influence Myth (11/30/2006 8:03:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Morrigel All jokes aside--the real benefits of cooperating with the USA are mainly financial, I would think. British Petroleum gets a little cut of the black gold, but moreover, since 9-11 London has become the new financial center of the world. --M Not convinced on that score, after all one of the reasons some allege for the war was the fact that too many countries are trading oil in euros, a currency that us brits dont use other than as required by international trade. Hong Kong, Shanghai and Tokyo are probably bigger financial centres now, especially the way China is emerging as a nation. I would even be tempted to add Kuala Lumpar to that list too. There are 4 major banks in the UK, and one of those is chinese, has been for some years. I wouldnt mind betting the other 3 are not so british anymore. Post 9/11 the tourist income from the states has dropped to practically zero, we import very few hard goods from the US, nor do we export many back in return. In many respects all that is shared is an almost common language, and like an old flame we just cant forget cling to each other for that one thing we have left of each other.

Morrigel -> RE: The Influence Myth (11/30/2006 8:16:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver If only this was true. Britain performs no better than France or Germany in regard to trade with the US and French and Spanish belligerence hasn't affected their trade with the US. My thinking is the same as seeks (and your observation), the delusion allows British politicians to appear to have a functioning dick on the world stage. I wasn't talking about trade with the US per se. The issue is actually about being superior to the USA and its financial centers in many respects. London is now the primary financial hub where people OTHER than Americans do business in the English language--it has surpassed New York since the destruction of the WTC. Washington cannot make aggressive moves to put a stop to this, while Britain remains one of the USA's few allies in the "war on terror". http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/27/business/worldbusiness/27london.html?ex=1319601600&en=a71491dec620088b&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss <article deleted> [Mod Note: Please don't post copyrighted works here in their entirety]

sleazy -> RE: The Influence Myth (11/30/2006 8:18:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vield This is an unexpected and interesting thread! My perspective from here in the USA is that historically the best interests of the UK have been served by maintaining a balance of power between the european nations. These are the folks near enough to try to come across the channel if they have the power. Not required anymore, such nations merely conquer by stealth with legislation used to beat a weak government into toeing the line Thus if France is very strong one supports the Germans, if Germany is very powerful one supports France or Russia, and so forth. Unfortunately, the reality of Europe is 2 nations (France and Germany) browbeating other nations into accepting rules that they refuse to obey themselves Bonus question, in the 1930s what country was Germany's biggest trading partner Frequently the UK has attempted similar balance of power situations in other parts of the world too, though these have often not turned out as expected. I think we ruled the world pretty well for a while :) Rather than politically if you look at the cultural legacy left behind there is still a lot of influence to remember us by The USA seems an afterthought to the UK, possibly because it has not had military conquest designs on the UK. Most of our mutual miltary tiffs have been due to inadvertant reactions to stupid interactions in which we have offended each other. <warning - warped humour alert> And as often as not you are generally pretty late turning up for wars, and dont even offer any assistance at all when they are closer to your shores :) As currently the USA is the one country with military power far beyond the rest, it is a cost effective and sensible policy to infuence the USA toward goals the UK finds atttractive by cooperating with them in some situations. I expect this cooperation brings the UK support in a number of areas not fully understood by the general public. Yes there could well be a lot of tit for tat exchanges, however the view of the article in the OP and many other media outlets in the UK is that we have been giving an awful lot of tit in public, and not getting any tat back at all. e.g. Both France & Germany are making more from the "rebuilding" in Iraq than we are, despite the fact their input in costs be it financial or military has been negligble LOL, recruiting a few divisions of Ghurkas to offer would likely be even more cost effective than sending planes and ships. Of course that has been done before. Ah, but because we have to play by the humanitarian, holier than thou rules of the modern world we cant play that way anymore, no matter how much more effective and efficient it may be :( Cyprus, Malaya, Yemen, Aden, we dealt with them all pretty effectively back when actually confronting the enemy was allowed. As it is to sort of steal from another thread its pretty much like sending the cops into south central LA wearing their own handcuffs, a pair of socks and nothing else at all vield Answer to bonus question, France was Germany's biggest trading partner right up until the invasion, 5 brownie points if you got it right :)

LotusSong -> RE: The Influence Myth (11/30/2006 8:50:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave Your point Meatcleaver is bloodie obviously true. The only reason we , as in our political establishment, pay lip service to the so called special relationship is that it allows us, ie Brit politicians, to prance about on the World stage. Still think getting rid of Saddam was no bad thing tho'. !!!! the killing required excepted, but I dont think he would have left had we just asked him to go. Now that we see the two Muslim factions having at it..I'm starting to think that Saddam had been sitting on top of a powder keg of which we did not understand the depth. I don't think the Iraqi's understand democracy. They may see it in action but have no clue how to make it work. They are used to solving things by jumping up and down with their guns and chanting.. then doing a "spray and pray" into anything that moves. Diplomacy and discussion is not "fast enough". Heh.. come to think of it...our own diplomacy and discussion has been wanting for many years. How do you combat insanity?

sleazy -> RE: The Influence Myth (11/30/2006 9:10:24 AM)
3 factions all of which really believe their way is the only way cannot be kept in line by any form of democracy, the only way it can be done is with a despot, and the knock on the door in the pre-dawn by the gents in jackboots who need no warrant. Add in the fact that having been downtrodden for so long, some of these people are bound to want to feel a little payback is due, especially if they are the significant group numerically that would normally give them the upper hand in any one man one vote system. Unfortunately much as not all folks like a beer, not all countries are suitable for democracy. I am of the opinion it was a brilliantly planned and executed military operation, followed by a sudden "now what?" that had not really been thought through.

caitlyn -> RE: The Influence Myth (11/30/2006 10:50:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver The OP wasn't a criticism of the US like some people appear to be taking it but a criticism of Britain and its delusional view it has some influence in Washington. If people said Britain had some influence in Moscow and went to fight in Cechnya, I would call that delusional too. I've given up worrying about criticism of the United States. I guess the big dog is going to get barked at. I just found the whole Germany thing funny, considering that not long ago they were dropping bombs on your civilians and frying people in ovens.

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