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RE: Sending Your Kids Off To College - 12/4/2006 1:02:52 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		LuckyAlbatross  of course not, the world needs worker bees as well.

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RE: Sending Your Kids Off To College - 12/4/2006 1:32:12 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

I've always found "persistance and drive" to be the factors that influences success the most. Regardless of which path they take without them they are destined for mediocrety.


Or a job in civil service.

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RE: Sending Your Kids Off To College - 12/4/2006 1:52:45 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Having one does not guarantee success anymore than not having one guarantees failure.

But Popeye to make the point take your guy with the Master Plumbers card add in a business degree and a more firm undertanding of other aspects of business and you have a powerhouse that niether one alone would compete with.

I've always found "persistance and drive" to be the factors that influences success the most. Regardless of which path they take without them they are destined for mediocrety.






Archer, that's easier said than done!
I found out that it takes generally 10-12 years to get a Master Plumber's lisense and that's classroom and practical.
You start as an "Apprentice" working under a Master's lisense and going to school for 4 years then a "Journeyman" for 4-6 years and you have to sit for that lisense too.
Then they study zoning ordinances, building codes, all kinds of state requirements and all kinds of other things.
It's a very long process then you'd want the guy to go to 4 years of business school? lol
You can be a M.D. in 12 years!
Plumbers make big bucks but they have a lot of education to complete before they can be lisensed.
I should have persued that instead of business school.
Even with a Journeyman's lisense you can do very well for yourself.

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Sending Your Kids Off To College - 12/4/2006 2:13:59 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth


I find recent college graduates delusional regarding the realities of a capitalist based business climate. They don't realize or understand to justified being paid a salary of $50k they need to produce $300k to the company.


*looks at her college homework and whimpers*

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RE: Sending Your Kids Off To College - 12/4/2006 2:16:21 PM   
KatyLied


Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		~quick reply~
I think we should encourage our children to attain an education beyond high school.  Whether it's specialized technical training, 2 years, 4 years, or beyond.  I want my children to be secure, successful adults.  A large part of that points to job income and a good standard of living.  I feel though, that they ultimately need to find their own way.  All I can do is encourage and point out the pros/cons of decisions, the decisions remain theirs.


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RE: Sending Your Kids Off To College - 12/4/2006 2:30:31 PM   
UtopianRanger


Posts: 3251
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Since this is about adult children and not the unmentionable kind I thought it would not be against the TOS to bring up this topic...

Another thread got me to thinking about this, if you have kids, do you encourage them to go on to college? Do you think college is a waste of time? On another thread there seemed to be a lot of dismissiveness about those who go to college and whether or not their education has intrinsic value in their life, so I wondered whether people feel it is important to have a college education for their children. I know that when push comes to shove we want our children to have the best chance in life, so I wonder if those that think that a degree is "just a piece of paper" feel that way when it comes to their own children? Just curious.



 Hi Julia….


  I'll make this fairly quick. In my family {when I grew up} things were quite simple :  If you choose to go to school, follow through, get decent grades and graduate, everything is completely paid for – And that would include five years of tuition and living expenses at any type of Ivy league caliber institution. However, if you’re a starving artist, a fuck up, a lazy non producer, or a partier, you have to move out of the house and make it on your own – Immediately and there are no exceptions.    

School is a lot like keeping ones body in pristine shape; because it’s all up to you {no one can force you}. At the end of the day you have the complete choice to exercise self-discipline and drive or flounder in laziness and non-production.

I know a lot of folks that never went to school who are very successful, but most of them would tell you if they had it to do over again they would have worked hard at the beginning and gone to school.


An education is very important.



JMHO



- R







_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton


(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Sending Your Kids Off To College - 12/4/2006 2:50:55 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

I find recent college graduates delusional regarding the realities of a capitalist based business climate. They don't realize or understand to justified being paid a salary of $50k they need to produce $300k to the company.

*looks at her college homework and whimpers*


Aquatic,
Sorry! The ratio comes from considering a number of factors. Add back the direct costs associated with an employee such as employee paid Social Security as well as the employer portion of Federal, State, City income taxes. Then there are the indirect costs of training plus the voluntary "employee benefit" costs such as 401k, medical, dental, life insurance. Most college graduate applicants expect these. Anyone hired for marketing is even more expensive adding the cost of marketing materials, travel, entertainment expense,

I consider hiring an employee as an "investment" that I and my company will see no return in the first year. The dichotomy is that the first thing new graduate hires do is update their resume, no longer detailing their college "accomplishments" but amended to show all their "experience"; assuming they are now worth more. Loyalty, independent or reciprocal, is virtually non-existent in business. I can pretend that my people are loyal, however I believe it it is more comfort and complacency than loyalty. My perspective is that I pay and treat my people as well as I can; however I temper that with the firm belief that if a crisis came and I couldn't make payroll for instance, they'd say; "Gee Merc, I'm sorry about that, but we're moving on to XYZ Company. Good LUCK!"

Another "bottom line" - To get your "real" and "true" worth and the income you "deserve"; it's best to work for yourself - IF you can afford it. Keep in mind, even then you have a 'partner' who has many "dependents" to feed. The Government and all their "non-motivated", "mediocre", "competency challenged" workers are relying on your taxes, fees, and business licenses to feed and raise the next generation of civil servants.

Oh yeah, I almost forgot. Save some extra for the "leach" classification of expenses; lawyers.

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Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Sending Your Kids Off To College - 12/4/2006 6:17:40 PM   
philosophy


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Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline 		...to take nothing away from Merc's informative post, isn't there anothe way of looking at these things? Not every aspect of our lives has a monetary value. If i'd gone into a number of other careers that were open to me when i left school i'd be rich by now.....i'm not rich. However i am satisfied with the things i have accomplished. There are people out there today who are alive because of what i've done.......and, at the time i was doing it, no-one considered what i was doing important enough to pay me properly for it..........thing is, i really don't care. You can make a shed-load of money if you're prepared to lie for big business, remember the tobacco companies experts? Money is not the be-all and end-all.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Sending Your Kids Off To College - 12/4/2006 9:02:29 PM   
hisannabelle


Posts: 1992
Joined: 12/3/2006
From: Tallahassee, FL, USA
Status: offline 		luckyalbatross's posts on this thread are right in line with my views.

i am going for a double major in religion and english. i remember the look on my mother's face when i told her i wanted to be a religion major. it was like the apocalypse had finally arrived. i agreed to do english as well because i would be happy being an english teacher and because it's sort of practical.

then again, i have a concrete answer when people say, "what do you want to do with that?" that is, go to graduate school and get a job teaching religion somewhere. of course, that's based on the assumption that i'll get accepted to graduate school where i want to go, and get a good teaching job. and even then, i'll probably have racked up a disgusting amount in loans and only be making beans.

so what? i'll be happy. i'll be doing what i would be doing if i were independently wealthy, even if i have to do it on someone else's timeclock and facing some debt. that's more than i could say if i'd gone to school for business or something. i'd be good at business. but i'd also wake up every morning feeling miserable. i'd be good at plenty of things that'd make me lots of money. i'd make a great lawyer. i'd rather be "mediocre" in terms of my goals (if we're rating "excellent" as someone who does whatever they can within reason to end up wealthy), and wake up every day knowing that i love my job and it's also my greatest hobby and the thing i enjoy most.

for the moment, i flip chicken sandwiches, so no "fries with that" jokes, please :P i actually love my job currently, even if the hours are long and the pay isn't nearly enough. i wouldn't want to do it for the rest of my life, but i have fun when i'm at work and as la said...i don't want to be awesome at my JOB. i want to have an awesome LIFE. i want to be a good employee and eventually a good professor - don't get me wrong, i would never treat a job carelessly, whether or not i liked it. and i want to do a lot of other things, too. i watched my parents go to work and come home and watch tv and go to sleep and never take vacations and hardly ever do anything they enjoyed. as long as my job is something that i don't want to spend all my time doing, then i'll be damned if i'm going to spend all my time doing it so i can be good at it and make lots of money, when i could be doing lots of other things i actually like.

< Message edited by hisannabelle -- 12/4/2006 9:04:37 PM >

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RE: Sending Your Kids Off To College - 12/5/2006 6:52:21 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

...to take nothing away from Merc's informative post, isn't there anothe way of looking at these things? Not every aspect of our lives has a monetary value. If i'd gone into a number of other careers that were open to me when i left school i'd be rich by now.....i'm not rich. However i am satisfied with the things i have accomplished. There are people out there today who are alive because of what i've done.......and, at the time i was doing it, no-one considered what i was doing important enough to pay me properly for it..........thing is, i really don't care. You can make a shed-load of money if you're prepared to lie for big business, remember the tobacco companies experts? Money is not the be-all and end-all.


philo,
You have no argument from me. The question was regarding the "value" and necessity of college not the merits of what a person does with the education obtained. Part of that process is, as you point out, determining value and return of the time investment outside a monetary context. Personal satisfaction is much more important. Knowing the financial consequences of achieving personal satisfaction and still doing it is a tribute to having a "calling". Being satisfied with that calling should generate contentment regardless if the pay if "proper" or not.

Although it's also outside the OP; being "prepared to lie for big business" is not a criteria for making a "shed-load" of money. It can be done on your own. There is the same contentment in running or working for a business that you enjoy, provides a needed service, and happens to be lucrative. The information and perspective I gave as an employer weren't speculation, it is how it is for new college graduates coming to me for a position; it was my direct experience with them. Obviously it's a limited sampling of people who seek work and/or a career in the financial services industry.

Money isn't the "be-all and end-all". As is the assumption that graduating college is the "be-all and end-all" to having it. Bill Gates is a perfect example of an exception to both premises.

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Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Sending Your Kids Off To College - 12/5/2006 7:16:37 AM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Having one does not guarantee success anymore than not having one guarantees failure.

But Popeye to make the point take your guy with the Master Plumbers card add in a business degree and a more firm undertanding of other aspects of business and you have a powerhouse that niether one alone would compete with.

I've always found "persistance and drive" to be the factors that influences success the most. Regardless of which path they take without them they are destined for mediocrety.






Archer, that's easier said than done!
I found out that it takes generally 10-12 years to get a Master Plumber's lisense and that's classroom and practical.
You start as an "Apprentice" working under a Master's lisense and going to school for 4 years then a "Journeyman" for 4-6 years and you have to sit for that lisense too.
Then they study zoning ordinances, building codes, all kinds of state requirements and all kinds of other things.
It's a very long process then you'd want the guy to go to 4 years of business school? lol
You can be a M.D. in 12 years!
Plumbers make big bucks but they have a lot of education to complete before they can be lisensed.
I should have persued that instead of business school.
Even with a Journeyman's lisense you can do very well for yourself.


As I said Popeye

"persistance and drive"

I know it's not a simple thing, but to argue that the competative advantage isn't there is folly.

I didn't say I wanted the guy to do anything I said that if the person had both they would be a powerhouse. They would outpace the others with a Master plumbers card.
Take the reverse as well
Take a guy with a degree, then have him start the certification for a "Trade Master's" card. the end result an engineer who doesn't design crap that won't work in the real world. Talk about a savings to be passed on.

Having Both academic and practical educations is ideal, having either one alone is good, having niether is economic suicide.

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Sending Your Kids Off To College - 12/5/2006 10:35:47 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		Just a "fact" I read somewhere.....

As the number of MBA's graduating from American Universities has increased so has the real value added component of the American economy reduced.
I wonder if there is any connection ?

Incidently I hope people dont conclude that because of my attitude I am against learning, because nothing could be further from the truth. Its what the learning is for and how it should be judged; that is what I think needs closer consideration, especially when it is publicly financed or seems to be a route to a "cushy" publicly financed job and, in the UK at least, pension provisions that are ridiculously generous.

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Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Sending Your Kids Off To College - 12/5/2006 12:14:02 PM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		I did encourage my kids to go to college but neither of them were inspired to do so. Does that bother me? No. Do I feel they suffered for it? No! My son is doing very well without college. My daughter did go back and take some classes that are specific for her chosen career but she has no degree. Had they gone to college directly out of high school I think it would have been a total waste of time and money. I know my kids.

I work in a big 10 college town. I see alot of wasted education.

To be honest when I am hiring for a position, their education is the last thing I care about. I want someone that learns quickly, that has a strong work ethic, that will be here ready to work on time, that actually uses some common sense to problem solve and function. Their work history is the biggest factor. Oddly enough, the ones with the college degrees were the ones that I "let go".

I think college is fantastic if one is going for a purpose, a specific degree in a field they wish to pursue. However, I see all to many that use it as a delay for being an adult. I think that is a waste of time and money. I see too many people that spent 2-6 years in college screwing off to gain a degree that ultimately means very little. My sister-in-law is one shining example. She was an excellent student, always straight A's. For six long years and many changes in majors. She tried functioning in the "real" working world and could not handle it. Went back to her college job of waiting tables until she snagged her investment banker hubby. Now she is really using that college degree being a homemaker with three kids. Her ultimate goal. That is a waste and her degree means jackshit.

As far as myself, I did not attend college, I have never regreted it. I do not feel it has hindered me one iota.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: Sending Your Kids Off To College - 12/5/2006 12:30:08 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Hisannabelle, which religeon are you going to study?
If that were me I'd study Lutherinism.
And of course I'd have to travel to Germany and the Scandinavian countries like Sweeden for a closer look!

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Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Sending Your Kids Off To College - 12/5/2006 2:59:59 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		Thanks for everyone's thoughts on this thread, I really appreciate everyone that took time to post...



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RE: Sending Your Kids Off To College - 12/5/2006 3:05:57 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		A guy I worked with was a "History Major" on an "Athletic Scholorship."
One time just to mess with him I asked him what the magna carta was all about.
His answer; "How the hell should I know?"
" I played football!"
Yup, one of those guys who, at exam time had the coach "have a little talk" with his academic professors.

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RE: Sending Your Kids Off To College - 12/5/2006 3:33:13 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

what the magna carta was all about


popeye,
That was about the biggest pitcher of beer you could get at the Pub.   Right?

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Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Sending Your Kids Off To College - 12/5/2006 3:49:08 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

what the magna carta was all about


popeye,
That was about the biggest pitcher of beer you could get at the Pub.   Right?


Merc, lmao! He would probably think so.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Sending Your Kids Off To College - 12/5/2006 3:59:09 PM   
Aileen68


Posts: 6091
Joined: 8/2/2005
Status: offline 		I haven't read any of the previous posts...I'll do that after I post.
I find it hard to come up with anything negative about furthering one's education.
I am already brainwashing my daughters (6 and 4) that college is a reality for them and will be part of their education after high school.  If they choose something that a degree is non-essentual for then they're no worse off.  If they need a degree for whatever profession they choose, then they are right on track.  College also gives incredible life experiences when one is still floundering and making life decisions...in terms of social and educational aspects.  My hope is that I'll have enough saved to help them make choices not based on what they can afford, but what they can achieve.

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Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Sending Your Kids Off To College - 12/5/2006 6:08:57 PM   
hisannabelle


Posts: 1992
Joined: 12/3/2006
From: Tallahassee, FL, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Hisannabelle, which religeon are you going to study?
If that were me I'd study Lutherinism.
And of course I'd have to travel to Germany and the Scandinavian countries like Sweeden for a closer look!


tibetan buddhism, mainly, although i'm making forays into other forms of buddhism, and into hinduism and judaism as well (so far).

this way i get to travel to asia for a closer look ;)  

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 60
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