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RE: Abuse and Consent - 12/4/2006 7:29:45 PM

SusanofO

Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PiercedDaz

unless you use telling your Master your limits (ironically) as an abuse of your power as a sub to control what happens. *** This is the intellectually confusing part and fodder for so much "intellectual masturbation" in convos of this sort, I think. It is kinda fun, but I agree it gets nowhere...it's an interesting question, though.

**Maybe the answer is: I don't know, technically, what abuse is - but I know it when I see it (or when it happens to me). This "conclusion" must be so comforting for all the prospective Masters of potential "no limits"slaves to hear, btw (hehe)...

This is welfare of human beings that we are talking about. I don't give a damn how hardcore BDSM someone is - Power Exchange is exactly that - it needs to be exchanged constantly in both directions. This is not a case of 'You Tarzan, me jane!'. Power exchange is fluid. It ebbs, flows, surges and receeds.

***This is the key point (above)
I think you just solved the puzzle for me (really). Thank you.

I know a good Vanilla example. I take complete novices and more experienced people up mountains for a job. They say to me 'I want to get to the top nomatter what', I say to them 'I'm going to take you to the top nomatter what'. However - nomatter how much someone may want something and nomatter how much consent has been given, not everyone is capable. Sometimes I have to look for fatigue of the body and mind. How many times have I brought someone down against their will as I 'knew' they wouldn't make it? Lots. If I had carried on up and they had become distressed or injured, it would have been abuse - even though they wanted to push it.

***Sounds like a fun and challenging occupation!

BDSM is NO different to real life. Nothing is fixed in stone.

***I agree.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 12/4/2006 7:38:05 PM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to PiercedDaz)

Post #: 41

RE: Abuse and Consent - 12/4/2006 7:29:55 PM

adaddysgirl

Posts: 1093
Joined: 3/2/2004
From: Syracuse, NY
Status: offline

Susan,

If you get a chance, you should really go back and read 2 particular threads that discussed in great details the dynamics involved in 'no limits'. i know i was a 'doubting thomas' at first.....and very confused by the whole concept....but i asked a lot of questions and believe it or not, i came away with a much better understanding of that whole dynamic. But the thing was, i really was trying to understand it....so i left my mind open to what was being explained to me. It seems that some, for their own reason, either just really can't understand what is being said, or refuse to....thus the circle keeps going around about 'how could someone really be like that?'

If you seriously want to try to understand it better, you really might want to go back and read those 2 threads....with an open mind. It might clear up some things for you. But of course, this is your decision.

DG

(in reply to SusanofO)

Post #: 42

RE: Abuse and Consent - 12/4/2006 7:32:45 PM

SusanofO

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Joined: 12/19/2005
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Thank you. I will probably go read them. They sound interesting (thank you), adaddysgirl.

- Susan

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to adaddysgirl)

Post #: 43

RE: Abuse and Consent - 12/4/2006 7:34:30 PM

SusanofO

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Joined: 12/19/2005
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angelic: This has crossed my mind as well. Is it anyone's job to do anything about this? If someone is engaging in bdsm almost solely due to "pre-conditioning" via childhood abuse, what? How does one judge "why" someone is into bdsm? Does it matter? Again, I think the answer (for me) is completely situationally based.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 12/4/2006 7:38:36 PM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to angelic)

Post #: 44

RE: Abuse and Consent - 12/4/2006 7:36:40 PM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO
Or is making one's Master aware of these things "topping from the bottom" if one is a "no limits" slave? Maybe I am "hair-splitting" but am truly confused. Or maybe I am just mind_ucking myself slowly to death (we all gotta go sometime, right), hehe)?

- Susan

Susan I can only speak from my own experience with my Master, in saying that I was expected to make him aware of all my fears and concerns and struggles, as well as all the things I loved and enjoyed, etc. He then spent the time working with me to overcome those things he felt were in my best interest to overcome, and left behind those things he found inconsequential. It was never up to me to pick and choose, but I didn't have to worry about it because I am owned by a man who has my best interest at heart. The dom I was with before my Master was not like this at all, and instead badgered and berated me for my fears - and that is what I consider abusive (trying to stay on Kyra's great topic).

(in reply to SusanofO)

Post #: 45

RE: Abuse and Consent - 12/4/2006 7:39:57 PM

SusanofO

Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
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Great and helpful statement for me, owned girlie. Thank you.

- Susan

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 46

RE: Abuse and Consent - 12/4/2006 7:41:28 PM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
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You are welcome, Susan, I am glad it was helpful. :)

(in reply to SusanofO)

Post #: 47

RE: Abuse and Consent - 12/4/2006 7:42:06 PM

theRose4U

Posts: 3403
Joined: 8/22/2005
Status: offline

quote:

So - he goes to the kitchen and finds the biggest Chef's knife in a drawer (huge) and comes back in the room waving it and holds it to her (his) throat, and starts cutting (very lightly). The slave is absolutely terrified. Of course, the slave wants to please the Master but -

Is this "abuse"? I have no opinion (honestly). I am just posing a question (really I am curious what others think).

This is edge play and pushing the grey area. Terrified mind fuck where there is no harm done he's risking his slave kicking his ass and leaving or her creaming her jeans and asking for more. Threatening her with a knife if the police are involved would probably fall under misdmeanor battery. No marks = no foul

Now that knife slips or she bolts forward slitting her neck... someone's going to jail.

_____________________________

Finding a good sub is like sifting through trail mix. You find a few fruits, a lotta nuts and have to sift to get to the sweet and special ones
drama llama

(in reply to spankmepink11)

Post #: 48

RE: Abuse and Consent - 12/4/2006 7:50:06 PM

SusanofO

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Joined: 12/19/2005
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That's it! It's "edge-play". I could be an "edge-player" in some areas (I get thrilled by the idea of branding and heavy duty whipping, for instance, although I have done neither of these) - but other areas (knife-play) would be a "no go" for me I guess. Just too scary (to me).

- Susan

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to theRose4U)

Post #: 49

RE: Abuse and Consent - 12/4/2006 7:50:22 PM

angelic

Posts: 1807
Joined: 1/24/2005
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Indeed, Susan, but even knowing it truly is none of my business, i still cannot help feeling just a bit down and sad about it.

_____________________________

~....and once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you long to return.~ -- Leonardo de Vinci

(in reply to SusanofO)

Post #: 50

RE: Abuse and Consent - 12/4/2006 7:52:56 PM

whisperedsighs

Posts: 349
Joined: 11/12/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SamKeithsslave

I also think that if you are being punched, kicked, biten or slapped, the fact that this physical contact is hands on, so to speak, I'd view this as abuse. However, I dont know why, but I dont consider spanking to be in this catagory.

There are many out there that enjoy being punched, biten or slapped. There are many who prefer and are able to control the amount of potential damage done if they are using their hands as opposed to a flogger, whip, etc. These things are not abusive in and of themselves, if someone has consent to them. When I say consent, I speak of informed consent. Informed consent isn't just saying, "yeah do it," it means the person understands the potential hazards and/or dangers of an activity they choose to participate in.

_____________________________

oh my god that was so wrong! .... again please!

(in reply to SamKeithsslave)

Post #: 51

RE: Abuse and Consent - 12/4/2006 7:53:20 PM

Noah

Posts: 1660
Joined: 7/5/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

I am curious to hear other's opinions on what part, if any, consent plays in your ideas of abuse.

Im hitting almost a brick wall with this one.

Abuse is subjective between consenting adults, therefore if someone is enduring it, is it still abuse?

To call an act "abuse" is to evaluate the act, to evaluate it negatively. Evaluation is fundamentally a subjective activity. I'm talking about the word, not some ontic theory. To "Evaluate" is to assign a value and we don't all value everything equally. The word evaluate seems by its very grammar, if you will, to address itself pretty much neccesarily to issues which entail a strong degree of subjectivity.

One could reply that it is possible to evaluate an act, and lots of other things, as against a set of objective criteria. This is true as far as it goes but it only serves to put the inevitable subjectivity at one remove. The adoption of that set of criteria (e.g. "anything which causes permanent damage") as opposed to some other set of criteria is a matter of acceptance based on evaluation. That is to say, based on a subjective activity.

None of that is to say that nothing objective is taken into consideration. Of course there are the objective facts of the case, physical (and psychological) results and evidence, etc. But in evaluation we assign meanings to these objective things and proceed to a great extent in terms of the meanings over and above the facts.

I'm not sure what your word "enduring" was put there to do, marie. If no one is experiencing the result of an action then the action isn't profitably seen as abuse, right? How can a thing be abuse which no one is "enduring"? (that was a rhetorical question)

The only actions which can sort of find there way into the conversation are ones which someone is enduring, so the mere fact that someone is enduring them doesn't sem to add any numbers to the equation, as it were.

When you say "enduring it" is the "it" meant to refer to some act the abusiveness of which we are trying to evaluate? Or rather some act which we have already deemed abusive?

So toward what act or kind of act was your "it" pointing? (I'm not one of those intuitive types, as you may recall.)

That should all be taken to add up to a small attempt to clarify some notions about subjectivity and to state my suspicion that I have missed your point and I'd like you to re-phrase your question.

(in reply to marieToo)

Post #: 52

RE: Abuse and Consent - 12/4/2006 7:54:14 PM

SusanofO

Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
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Well, I do work with abused inmentionables, and I do (actually) think it is my business. I was never abused as a child (unless you count an anxiety-prone mother who tended to be a "screamer" - she never hit us, just yelled a lot. She was, on the whole, a good mom. I have a wonderful dad who is still living).

Working there (at the CSI, stands for Child Saving Institute), I realize whenever I go that I am among the fortunate folks as far as having non-abusive parents, though. When adults are involved, though, it becomes so blurry for me as far as what to say or how to deal with it.

One of my best friends was sexually abused by her older brother from the age of 9 through high school. I keep urging her to get counselling (and even offerred to pay for it), but she hasn't "found the time" yet (she has a pretty high-powered job). She has never had a non-_ucked up relationship with a guy. Never. But she says it "didn't affect her that much" (her sexual abuse). And so it goes.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 12/4/2006 8:03:23 PM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to angelic)

Post #: 53

RE: Abuse and Consent - 12/4/2006 7:56:56 PM

whisperedsighs

Posts: 349
Joined: 11/12/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

angelic: This has crossed my mind as well. Is it anyone's job to do anything about this? If someone is engaging in bdsm almost solely due to "pre-conditioning" via childhood abuse, what? How does one judge "why" someone is into bdsm? Does it matter? Again, I think the answer (for me) is completely situationally based.

- Susan

I think it is important to know your play partners. In knowing them you can decide for yourself if you feel they are psychologically healthy enough to participate in the activites the two of you decide to engage in.

_____________________________

oh my god that was so wrong! .... again please!

(in reply to SusanofO)

Post #: 54

RE: Abuse and Consent - 12/4/2006 8:03:01 PM

SusanofO

Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
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You know, (please don't blush) Noah, I am so glad you participate in these forums. I know you like to "travel incognito" - so I have made up all sorts of ideas re: What you really do for a living. I've decided that you teach Logic or Philosophy at a University somewhere. Am I right?
Even if I am not, I don't care.

This is not "empty flattery" (it might be a compliment, but it's also an "evaluation" that might be subjective), but some would no doubt agree with me. I've never minded your 10-20 page diatribes. They are fun, fun fun (to me). Not a form of torture. I mean that with all my heart. It is so much fun when you really get going..you are a really good writer.

- Susan

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to Noah)

Post #: 55

RE: Abuse and Consent - 12/4/2006 8:03:53 PM

angelic

Posts: 1807
Joined: 1/24/2005
Status: offline

Susan, just to clarify what i meant when i said it was none of my business, i was speaking strictly on a BDSM level, where it is or can be very difficult to ascertain if what you are seeing is abuse or just extreme play.

_____________________________

~....and once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you long to return.~ -- Leonardo de Vinci

(in reply to SusanofO)

Post #: 56

RE: Abuse and Consent - 12/4/2006 8:05:56 PM

whisperedsighs

Posts: 349
Joined: 11/12/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PiercedDaz

Just because consent has been given and both parties are acting in good faith does not mean that somebody may end up being inadvertantly abused.

I am sorry, but I think it would be better said that the person is inadvertantly harmed. Just because someone is harmed in a scene does not make it abuse. We all take risks. Where the line is drawn is how things are handled if this happens. Both parties have to be responsible for what happens in a scene. Both parties then have to take the appropriate steps to heal the person harmed to the best of their ability.
I had a friend, who was suspended in rope, the top dropped her. She was harmed, but it wasn't abuse. It was something that happened. If both parties are taking all the best precautions to be informed, and as safe as possible, there are still accidents. Accident does not equal abuse. After being dropped the top took care of my friend, made sure she was given the proper care for her injuries. That is responsibility.

_____________________________

oh my god that was so wrong! .... again please!

(in reply to PiercedDaz)

Post #: 57

RE: Abuse and Consent - 12/4/2006 8:09:01 PM

angelic

Posts: 1807
Joined: 1/24/2005
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Not everyone is honorable.

_____________________________

~....and once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you long to return.~ -- Leonardo de Vinci

(in reply to whisperedsighs)

Post #: 58

RE: Abuse and Consent - 12/4/2006 8:10:51 PM

slavejali

Posts: 2918
Status: offline

The whole abuse thing is a hard issue. We could have a dom who loves to feed his submissive ice-cream everyday. In one persons mind they would think "aww isn't that sweet" in anothers "He is abusing her by making her unhealthy". In the one dominants mind he is providing a treat that she loves, in another ones he is making her eat shit she knows is gonna go to her waistline and effect her health. In both scenario's the submissive consented and submitted. Where does abuse start and stop? God knows really....(sorry to use a very simple example, but getting it back to basics makes things easier for me to grasp foundational concepts).

I think I'm really at a point where I don't see there being such a thing as abuse unless its non-consensual, or if the person being abused isn't mentally fit in the first place to be in a dominant and submisive relationship, which is a whole nother topic anyways.

_____________________________

Freedom in Bondage

Different Strokes for Different Folks

"I'll always have a *soft spot* for Sadists"

(in reply to kyraofMists)

Post #: 59

RE: Abuse and Consent - 12/4/2006 8:11:10 PM

SusanofO

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Joined: 12/19/2005
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Yes, that is a good point. I agree even then it might, in certain circumstances, be hard to gauge, unless someone knew another pretty well.

I remember clearly (am not sure why this stands out in my mind) the last time I was here a guy wrote in that (I am thinmking he felt somewhat guilty about it, he even said that) - he'd had a scene with a submissive whose father used to terrify her with a belt (beating her with it).

Even though he knew this, he'd corner her with the belt, over any other type of "disciplinary implement". I had the feeling, by the way he described their scene, that this was not really all that "consensual" on her part, at least not in this instance. Then he'd wail on her with the belt until she dissolved into tears, screaming and begging for him to stop.

I understand this could get someone realy "hot" (I do, believe me). But the thing he felt guilty about was that she'd confided in him that this particular scenario, above most others, was particularly terrifying for her. And he was taking advantage of that.

If it was actually consensual, I say "go for it". If not, then well. No.

- Susan

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to angelic)

Post #: 60

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