RE: Abuse and Consent

RE: Abuse and Consent (Full Version)

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RedSavageSlave -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/5/2006 6:16:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SusanofO 1) A person has agreed to be a "no limits" slave....and their Master then, for instance... 2) Decides to "push their limits" and suddenly, without warning (if the person is a slave, then, technically no "pre-negotiations" are needed to change any "play-time "game-plan" - at least that is my understanding - although I realize this agreement about what constitutes a "slave" is situational between two people but - bear with me).... So anyway, the Master decides that tonight he is going to scare the Hell out of his slave with a heavy version of "knife-play" . The Master is a Sadist (which is neither here nor there, but anyway)- he knows his slave hates knifeplay. quote: ORIGINAL: SamKeithsslave quote: ORIGINAL: RedSavageSlave quote: ORIGINAL: SamKeithsslave Well in the senario presented the slave was stated to have had a fear of knives. I would no more wave a knife at someones neck who had a fear of them than I would place a spider directly on the face of someone with aracnophobia. It has been proven that slowly introducing someone to a fear can help them learn to over come it. I dont think anyone with an extreme fear will respond well to this sort of treatment. And if the play didnt cause any long lasting "mental damage" (not brain damage) I'd consider it still abuse, as the perpetrator cant have known going into it that it would have an overall positive affect etc. Anyone deliberately pushing a hard limit as fast as described is being abusive - again just my opinion. nowhere in your example did you list that the slave had this for a hard limit. The poster who initiated the knife analogy did, I think, state that for the purpose of the example knives were a hard limit. This is the original post.. again..there is no indication that this is a hard limit..only that the slave was afraid of knives.

mistoferin -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/5/2006 6:33:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: timeoutgurlie quote: ORIGINAL: catize quote: I'm left confused overall about the notion of an abusive relationship regardless of consent. I've never quite understood why anyone would stay when they're in a situation that doesn't fit themelves [&:] If the way they are treated makes them unhappy,if they are harmed by it, then it is abuse. The crux of the discussion here is if someone consents and says they are happy, says they do not feel harmed, is it indeed, abuse? To add to my previous post, if someone comes to me and wonders if what is happening to them is abuse, I would say if they have to ask that question, then perhaps it is. But if they come to me, smiling and excited to share an experience that made them happy, even if it makes me squirm, I must accept that it was not abusive for them, despite my own definition of what is harmful/abusive for me. I'm inclined to agree with what you've posted here, for me if they feel fine about it, then it couldn't be abuse, regardless of what I would personally feel if involved in the same scanrios they describe. For me, no, it wouldn't be abuse if they were fine with things, how could it be? I still find the whole issue confusing really, not sure I'll ever understand what difference it makes. If someone chooses things in life, and continues to live with them, then I can't see the abuse factor. [&:] I have a girlfriend who thinks her husband is being abusive if he doesn't take her to dinner at least three nights a week or if he books a room for them at a hotel that has poor room service. If she is not being totally pampered and spoiled she thinks it's abusive...so does that make it abusive? I have have talked to a woman who's husband came home from a bad day at work and shoved her face down onto the hot frying pan she was cooking him dinner on. I was called to come speak to her by the hospital where she was being treated for second and third degree burns. She didn't think it was abusive...she said he just had a bad day and "sometimes he just can't help himself, I understand"....she said she "deserved it"....she loved him. So does that make that not abusive?

marieToo -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/5/2006 6:33:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kyraofMists Fair enough Noah. May I ask your thoughts on ownedgirlie's first post to this thread where her husband did not intend to be abusive, but his way of "loving" was so toxic that it resulted in her being abused mentally and emotionally? Would you also consider this as wrong and not abusive? kyra...You didn't address this to me, so I hope you don't mind me jumping in here. The questions that pop into my mind here is this... If he "did not intend" to be abusive, could it be that ownedgirlie was not necessarily abused, but felt abused? In other words could we make this statement..... "Owniegirlie's husband treated her in such a way that it left her feeling emotionally damaged, even though he didn't mean to harm her." Or are we going on the assumption that ALL 'harm' is classified as abuse?

SamKeithsslave -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/5/2006 7:02:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RedSavageSlave quote: ORIGINAL: SusanofO 1) A person has agreed to be a "no limits" slave....and their Master then, for instance... 2) Decides to "push their limits" and suddenly, without warning (if the person is a slave, then, technically no "pre-negotiations" are needed to change any "play-time "game-plan" - at least that is my understanding - although I realize this agreement about what constitutes a "slave" is situational between two people but - bear with me).... So anyway, the Master decides that tonight he is going to scare the Hell out of his slave with a heavy version of "knife-play" . The Master is a Sadist (which is neither here nor there, but anyway)- he knows his slave hates knifeplay. quote: ORIGINAL: SamKeithsslave quote: ORIGINAL: RedSavageSlave quote: ORIGINAL: SamKeithsslave Well in the senario presented the slave was stated to have had a fear of knives. I would no more wave a knife at someones neck who had a fear of them than I would place a spider directly on the face of someone with aracnophobia. It has been proven that slowly introducing someone to a fear can help them learn to over come it. I dont think anyone with an extreme fear will respond well to this sort of treatment. And if the play didnt cause any long lasting "mental damage" (not brain damage) I'd consider it still abuse, as the perpetrator cant have known going into it that it would have an overall positive affect etc. Anyone deliberately pushing a hard limit as fast as described is being abusive - again just my opinion. nowhere in your example did you list that the slave had this for a hard limit. The poster who initiated the knife analogy did, I think, state that for the purpose of the example knives were a hard limit. This is the original post.. again..there is no indication that this is a hard limit..only that the slave was afraid of knives. Its mentioned that the master is aware that the slave hates knives and he chooses to "scare the hell out of his slave with a heavy version of knife play" - it might not say "hard limit" but, I think its safe to assume the slave wouldnt partake voluntarily. It doesnt really change what I have said, the end result is IMO the same.

ownedgirlie -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/5/2006 7:53:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: marieToo quote: ORIGINAL: kyraofMists Fair enough Noah. May I ask your thoughts on ownedgirlie's first post to this thread where her husband did not intend to be abusive, but his way of "loving" was so toxic that it resulted in her being abused mentally and emotionally? Would you also consider this as wrong and not abusive? kyra...You didn't address this to me, so I hope you don't mind me jumping in here. The questions that pop into my mind here is this... If he "did not intend" to be abusive, could it be that ownedgirlie was not necessarily abused, but felt abused? In other words could we make this statement..... "Owniegirlie's husband treated her in such a way that it left her feeling emotionally damaged, even though he didn't mean to harm her." Or are we going on the assumption that ALL 'harm' is classified as abuse? Egads I am being used as an example now. No, Marie, he did not intend to crush my emotional state by not allowing me to have friends, to see family,to talk to others on the phone, to leave the same room he was in, to go through a day at work without calling me 15 times, to do anything - even something as simple as cooking dinner- without telling me how I wasn't doing it right. I was not allowed anything that might take my attention from him - that meant no children. I didn't feel abused, even though I was miserable. I doubted my every thought and feeling. I was afraid of my own shadow. When he rasied his voice I would jump. I ceased to know what I liked - I didn't even know what food I liked anymore. I could no longer make a decision for myself, even about what to eat for lunch. I told everyone I was happy. No one knew the things that went on in our house. I was defensive to anyone who expressed their concern. And yet I was dying inside. We went to counseling - 2 hours a week for 9 months. As we delved into my mind, more and more tragedies were revealed. In the safety of the counselor's office, I could confess how scared I was of my husband. I could admit how miserable I was. After hours of observation, questions and analysis, the counselor told my husband that my reactions to him were of someone who has been emotionally traumatized. It was his conclusion that my marriage was highly abusive. My ex still claims it was not. And yet the week before thanksgiving he came to my apartment to talk to me about some things, and I had to kick him out. He would not leave. He told me I was wrong for having left him. He told me I did not know what was right for me, and didn't I see he needs me? He grabbed me. He forced a kiss on me. He said I would be sorry. He said if I didn't come back to him he would kill himself and it would be on my conscious. Three nights ago he called at 3:30 in the morning, telling me he had OD'd and was dying (turns out he was just drunk). He didn't intend to upset me, Marie. He didn't intend to cause me so much fear I had to change the gate code to my apartment, and ask security at work to work me to my car every night now. Did I feel abused, or was I actually abused? Many think just because no marks are left on someone's body then it is not abuse. That's because they can not see the person's insides. Emotional abuse is very hard to define. And in my research on it, I realized how much I hate the word abuse associated with me. I could not have possibly been abused. Abuse, in my mind, would mean that I was weak and pathetic and victimized. So I denied it for a very long time. But when a person walks on eggshells constantly, and is afraid to think for her/himself, and is afraid of making the wrong decisions for fear of being physically or emotionally pummelled, or remains isolated from the world because it is easier than explaining why you can only talk in a mumble anymore... You tell me. He didn't intend this, after all.

adaddysgirl -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/5/2006 8:38:08 AM)
Person A: Your husband calls you a slut and a cunt? Well that's just straight out abuse. Person B: No, it's not abuse because i like it when he does it....kinda puts a smile on my face. A: Well in my opinion, that's just abusive. B: Well, okay then, it is abusive, but i still like it. Abuse is not abuse is not abuse....period. People here are trying to put a blanket definition on something that is really subjective to the parties involved. Beyond the physical, any kind of real abuse causes emotional and pyschological harm. If there is no harm to those involved, it's not abusive, whether you think it is or not. You are then Person A, and i am then Person B....but for some reason, Person A keeps trying to shove down my throat that what i am into is abusive. To concede, i will then agree that it is abuse but for my own reasons, i like it anyway. [;)] Person A: Your husband spanks you? (gasp!) Person B: Yes, most time to tears. A: (mortified) How do you stand for such abuse? B: It is part of my discipline. When over, i feel like a new person. A: But that is abusive....yada, yada, yada We are really not talking about innocent, non consenting victims here. We are talking about people who are walking away after 'being abused' (if you must) and saying....'hey, that makes me feel pretty good about myself, and him!' You can call that whatever you want to call it but it doesn't mean that you are right when trying to define another's dynamic. People in the lifestyle complain because they can't find a 'kink friendly' therapist....or doctor even. They realize that they stand the chance of being labeled abused, or sick, perverse, whatever. And that is because others just can't seem to wrap their mind around the concept of consent. A child who is abused in any fashion, sexually, physically, verbally, emotionally....will suffer psychological harm. That is abuse. Any adult who remains in a relationship where the partner continually causes psychological harm, is considered abused. But in reality, unless she is chained to a wall 24 hours a day, she allows such abuse. Harming her is abusive....her ability to leave but choosing to stay makes it what? (And usually, most do get out of those relationships eventually, one way or another.) A husband comes home and pushes his wifes face into a hot pan and she accepts that, who am i to judge this as abusive? Does she feel fulfilled in some way afterwards? i would tend to think not but how can i speak for her and her relationship? Now he does that to a child, then that is a different story. The child has no choice to be accepting of that behavior and has no means of escape. There i would intercede. All i can say is....if you are trying to push your idea of what abuse is down someone's throat...or trying to convince them that what they are doing in their relationship is abusive even though they are repeatedly telling you that they are happy with what they do, then you have a closed mind. And i don't care if you have seen 6000 females abused or murdered by abusive partners....that is not what we are talking about here. BTW...i just loved forced rape scenes when i had a partner. Would i want to be raped by a stranger on the street...or anyone else who did not do so with my consent? Hell no! That is abusive. The difference is....having it done by a trusted partner causes me no harm at all and does not make it abusive at all (unless, of course, that's what you want to call it). DG

marieToo -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/5/2006 8:39:15 AM)
Ownedgirlie: I think I was trying to get some 'basis' for how kyra was defining abuse, or at the least get some lines drawn in the sand; some distinctions to found discussion on. Theres just too much flying around for me personally to nail this down, since there are so many things that play into the concept of consent and abuse; Harm, hurt, pain, perception, intention, desire, resistance etc; all of which are subjective. And your example was out on the table so I grabbed it....lol.. What you described sounds more like a dysfunctional relationship to me, rather than an abusive one and here is why I see it this way... For me...me...and no one else, I define abuse by 2 criteria. A. One person intends to damage/harm B. The other person is not desirous of the above. (non-consent) Beyond that I will stretch this to say that I think it's possible to define certain behaviors as "abusive behaviors" and still maintain that in some circumstances, abusive behaviors being present in a relationship are not necessarily indicia that "abuse" is taking place.

Kalira -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/5/2006 9:02:20 AM)
~~ general reply ~~ Maybe I missed something, but nowhere did I see Kyra ask for 'definitions' of abuse. She asked for explanations of how CONSENT plays into OUR ideas of abuse. Personally, what I constitute as abuse is going to differ with every single person in the world. Even saying that the only time I would claim abuse is when Master 'harms me emotionally; damages me physically is going to differ from what everyone else would consider abuse. However, that was not the question that was raised. The question that was raised is how does consent fit into with what we, as in each individual that reads the OP, think of as abuse.

mistoferin -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/5/2006 9:08:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: adaddysgirl A husband comes home and pushes his wifes face into a hot pan and she accepts that, who am i to judge this as abusive? Does she feel fulfilled in some way afterwards? i would tend to think not but how can i speak for her and her relationship? I don't think she got much fulfillment. But she also would not admit that she saw it as abusive....who knows, maybe she really didn't or couldn't see that. At the time of the incident she was in denial of what was happening. She was assuming the blame...her failures....she just wasn't "enough" for him. quote: Any adult who remains in a relationship where the partner continually causes psychological harm, is considered abused. But in reality, unless she is chained to a wall 24 hours a day, she allows such abuse. Harming her is abusive....her ability to leave but choosing to stay makes it what? I understand what you are saying and I even agree on some level. However, it is just not that cut and dried. People stay in abusive relationships all the time for many reasons. They may not be valid reasons to you or I but I can assure you they are to them. Finances, no other alternatives, shame, fear of failure and denial are just the tip of the iceberg. That particular woman did try to get out a few months after that incident. She came to stay at the shelter but ultimately went back after she was threatened with a custody battle she knew she could not afford. quote: (And usually, most do get out of those relationships eventually, one way or another.) Yes, they do. This woman in particular got out and will never again have to worry about being abused. He strangled her to death one evening. She was pregnant at the time. She was 24....and left behind a two year old.

marieToo -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/5/2006 10:06:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kalira Maybe I missed something, but nowhere did I see Kyra ask for 'definitions' of abuse. She asked for explanations of how CONSENT plays into OUR ideas of abuse. Speaking only for myself here, I sometimes find it helpful to try and clarify what someone else means when they use a particular term, or what their 'definition' of something is. I sometimes find that in doing so, it helps me to zero in on their point and respond to it more effectively. Sometimes these topics need to expand beyond what the OP precisely asked for, in order to gain understanding and expound upon personal thoughts.

Jeffshope -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/5/2006 10:25:12 AM)
Well nothing like having the first post be a risque one..lol If you consent to something - you cannot then turn around and cry abuse. It doesn't work. Now does everything play out in real life the way it does when you plan it? Of course not - but that is still not abuse - it is two people making a mistake. Now if you consent to "A" activity, and the Top does "A" and then keeps going past negotiated limits - then of course that is abuse

marieToo -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/5/2006 10:29:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jeffshope Well nothing like having the first post be a risque one..lol Oh..it's gonna be a rough ride. I suggest nothing less than a full suit of armour, an underground bunker and a semi-automatic. heh.

kyraofMists -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/5/2006 1:13:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: catize The crux of the discussion here is if someone consents and says they are happy, says they do not feel harmed, is it indeed, abuse? The OP did not make any statements to a person saying they are happy or do not feel harmed. All it asked for was what role others thought consent plays in the determination of abuse or perhaps you are referring to some of the tangents that the thread has taken. From what I understand from your posts is that you think consent does play a role and I am curious to know the reasoning behind that. Does the very fact that consent was given automatically prohibit abuse from occurring and if so why? Kyra

kyraofMists -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/5/2006 1:22:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: marieToo Or are we going on the assumption that ALL 'harm' is classified as abuse? I did not state that I was making this assumption at all and I did not get the impression that anyone else was making this assumption either. Not sure why such a black and white question was asked.

MmakeMme -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/5/2006 1:25:47 PM)
Very provocative and very difficult to formulate an answer. Intentionally repeating accidental injurious behavior that caused serious injury (phsychological, emotional, physical). Willful manipulation of trust. Manipulation of truth in order to gain a specific end. ("No, I didn't have unprotected sex with Person X." or "No, I don't have a communicable disease.") Consistently using someone's past injuries (emotional, psychological, physical) to control them, thus reopening the wounds and creating a new need to have to heal. For instance, forcing a recovering alcoholic to drink or controlling a codpendent by consistent relationship guilt. Of course there are gray areas all over this answer, and each is a matter of degree. One would hope the Dominant would have enough control to use other means of control ... but some do not, and some do not care.

marieToo -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/5/2006 1:31:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kyraofMists quote: ORIGINAL: marieToo Or are we going on the assumption that ALL 'harm' is classified as abuse? I did not state that I was making this assumption at all and I did not get the impression that anyone else was making this assumption either. Not sure why such a black and white question was asked. I was trying to get clarification, I was not at any point saying that you meant it in any way or another, which is why it was posed as a question, not an assumption or a statement of your meaning. It wasnt black or white, it was one little step towards trying to 'pare' it down to something I could get a grip on. Didn't mean to offend. I think I have explained my own feeling towards the topic as best I can. Unless someone wants to discuss the topic further, rather than asking why questions are being asked, I'll refrain from further comment

LadyHugs -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/5/2006 1:31:13 PM)
Dear Ladies and Gentlemen; I am not responding to any one individual posting however, I do wish to add to what has been added since I posted last. In my mind's eyes I see, in general of what individuals consent to falls into a reasonable expectation within the boundaries, understanding and goals of the relationship. Fear is often what we do not understand and nature's fight/flight mechanics are still inside of us and only self mastery of our natural instincts do we override them. Consent in marriage and or in a M/s, D/s, BDSM relationship is still based on fluid trusts between the parties involved. But, when behavior takes a dramatic and negative turn; which is abnormal for the previous consented foundation of what would be in the relationship; it bears re-negotiation--even in the form of communication. But, again--the one abused must make the marker or standards and or elements clear on what is abusive to them. It is my personal opinion, the most damaging and not acted upon abuse that goes on daily, is verbal, mental and or emotional abuse. The scars cannot be seen, like they could by physical abuse cases but, I think the most deadly abuse is verbal, mental and or emotional abuse. As a dominant that has consent of a no-limits slave, I may indeed be given the authority and permission/consent to manifest abusive like traits but, it is MY duty to control my evil side and or negative side; as to manage my nature. It isn't anybody's job but my own to maintain myself. As a dominant, I also avoid humiliation aspects because in my mind's eyes that is abusive and is abusive because of my early years in life I was and still carry scars. Now, for some that have no baggage that is great. But, it is important not to repeat a personal cycle when it is abusive in one's mind's eyes and guise it as consensual license under the umbrella understanding of the elements of S&M, D/s, BDSM and or M/s. In adding to this--an individual inside themselves knows the 'truth' of their intent. Sometimes people say things without the intent on being mean/cruel and or humiliating however, those who hear will take it as a form of humiliation, cruelty and or being mean. So, it is by no means 'simple' as the entire measuring of the elements of what is abuse and what is not; must be put onto the scale of each person's 'scales of justice, logic, reasoning, etc.' In my mind's eyes I see; no person should live in fear and or terror and or have to be extraordinary in their care about what they say, do, look and or exist, and or iscolation and or controling in a micro-managed manner as to deny freedoms that promote such as the comments of 'walking on egg shells.' After communication fails, efforts to correct the issues fail and all other remedies that both individuals can be happy about fail; it is time to exit. To stay to something contrary to what is 'gut right' for you (in general terms) is against your nature and can be abusive. And, I will add to all of the above that this is not just a D/s issue where just submissive/slaves are abused. Dominants can be abused as well. It also is not a male verses female issue. Females can abuse men just as much as men can abuse females. And, it can be same gender abuse. Abuse is not unequal when it comes to the victims. Just some thoughts. Respectfully submitted for consideration, Lady Hugs

kyraofMists -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/5/2006 1:49:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: marieToo quote: ORIGINAL: Kalira Maybe I missed something, but nowhere did I see Kyra ask for 'definitions' of abuse. She asked for explanations of how CONSENT plays into OUR ideas of abuse. Speaking only for myself here, I sometimes find it helpful to try and clarify what someone else means when they use a particular term, or what their 'definition' of something is. I sometimes find that in doing so, it helps me to zero in on their point and respond to it more effectively. Sometimes these topics need to expand beyond what the OP precisely asked for, in order to gain understanding and expound upon personal thoughts. Marie, I did give my definition of abuse and explained why I am of the opinion that consent is irrelevant. However, I have also said more than once that it is subjective and varies from person to person. To me there is no "line in the sand" that can be drawn on this issue. I am very comfortable dealing with this topic and all its subjectivity and do not have the need or desire to cement it in absolutes. I just saw your last post and sometimes I find it useful to understand people's motivations when asking questions so that I can respond more effectively. The question came across as inflammatory and somewhat hostile to me with the way it was phrased and the use of absolutes. Knight's kyra

kyraofMists -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/5/2006 2:00:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jeffshope Well nothing like having the first post be a risque one..lol If you consent to something - you cannot then turn around and cry abuse. It doesn't work. Why does consent automatically preclude it from being abusive? What if there wasn't informed consent or the consent was coerced or manipulated in some way? Welcome to the boards by the way. Knight's kyra

marieToo -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/5/2006 2:12:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kyraofMists quote: ORIGINAL: marieToo quote: ORIGINAL: Kalira Maybe I missed something, but nowhere did I see Kyra ask for 'definitions' of abuse. She asked for explanations of how CONSENT plays into OUR ideas of abuse. Speaking only for myself here, I sometimes find it helpful to try and clarify what someone else means when they use a particular term, or what their 'definition' of something is. I sometimes find that in doing so, it helps me to zero in on their point and respond to it more effectively. Sometimes these topics need to expand beyond what the OP precisely asked for, in order to gain understanding and expound upon personal thoughts. Marie, I did give my definition of abuse and explained why I am of the opinion that consent is irrelevant. However, I have also said more than once that it is subjective and varies from person to person. To me there is no "line in the sand" that can be drawn on this issue. I am very comfortable dealing with this topic and all its subjectivity and do not have the need or desire to cement it in absolutes. I just saw your last post and sometimes I find it useful to understand people's motivations when asking questions so that I can respond more effectively. The question came across as inflammatory and somewhat hostile to me with the way it was phrased and the use of absolutes. Knight's kyra If you read all my posts here (which Im not saying you should have) but if you do, you will see the same continuity in all of them; that for me, it was a hard topic to nail down and I explained why. I was neither being inflammatory or hostile. I was attempting to get on the same wavelength or grasp what it was you were trying to convey. And my means to that end was to ask related questions that might help me to narrow it down to what you were saying.

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