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Conscious Choice That Promotes Slavery - 12/5/2006 6:48:08 AM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline 		I consulted LuckyAlbatrous first before starting a new thread so I hope I'm creating a new topic here. This is a lot of stuff in my head so please forgive me for errors in my writing or difficult passages -- I will try to clarify as best I can with only my own head as editor.

Background: Whenever I read for my job as a book reviewer I think about what I'm reading and I often discuss it with my slave. This past weekend I read two books about the master-slave dynamic/lifestyle and how that actually can work. It gets me thinking about how my own household works and I discuss some things with Fox.

Later he comments that he sometimes thinks he isn't cut out to be a good slave and he worries about that. I just hug him and I think about it. The next evening's discussion is what I want to bring up here to see if others have similar conclusions to the one I've developed.

So the next evening I brought up Fox's concerns again and asked him the following question: Of all those I've trained who have stayed on as my slave, how many of them are still around today?

The answer is NONE. Fox them tried to make some excuses for why they weren't here -- other jobs, family problems, school, etc.

I pointed out to him that he's had all things issues as well.

He could have gone onto graduate school but he chose to not do that until I am finished.

He could have looked for a job outside of where I live but he chose to focus on his service to me and sadly suffer at a less than ideal job.

He could have caved into the pressure from his family to move out and to cut ties with "those sorts of people" but instead he chose to stay and to try and build bridges between us and them.

The others who were my "slaves" made other choices and thus they aren't here. In my opinion they chose easier routes in life than to stick out the often difficult master-slave relationship in our modern world.

Here is my conclusion: Consensual slavery today is possible because of the conscious choices we make that promote greater probablity for success.

I believe that even if we may not feel these are conscious decisions we make when we are in these relationships, that they are. Certainly even within the BDSM and Leather communities those of us who have 24/7, master-slave, or TPE relationship are in the minority especially in the case of long-term successful relationships. I think that one of the biggest factos in success is that both parties make a conscious and consistant decision/choice to continue to pursue the dynamic in the face of so many other choices.

We do not have social, cultural and legal re-enforcement of slavery (or at least most of us don't) and indeed we have have these forces working against our dynamic. Therefore greater success is likely when we make conscious choices and are actively and daily engaged in those things that make our hierarchical dynamics work.

Just my thoughts. What are your thoughts?

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/
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RE: Conscious Choice That Promotes Slavery - 12/5/2006 6:55:28 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo
I think that one of the biggest factos in success is that both parties make a conscious and consistant decision/choice to continue to pursue the dynamic in the face of so many other choices.


I don't think that is exclusive to M/s or D/s. I think that it is what makes any successful relationship work. Conscious and consistant decision/choice to continue....commitment and effort.

_____________________________

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~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

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RE: Conscious Choice That Promotes Slavery - 12/5/2006 6:57:24 AM   
Jasmyn


Posts: 1234
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: New Zealand
Status: offline 		Agree Erin ... nicely said.

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RE: Conscious Choice That Promotes Slavery - 12/5/2006 7:19:42 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		Other than I completely agree?

Being true to ourselves is the hardest thing we can be.  And in order to BE that, we have to work for it, we have to make the choice to BE that, all the time. 

The fun part of life is that "who we are" can conflict with "who we are becoming."

And then there's always the nifty quote "The unexamined life is not worth living."  Once you've examined your life, is there an inherent responsibility of choice within it?  Can we be found negligent to our souls if we remain passive in who we are?

Even the "most slaveliest of slaves" made the choice at one point to go out in public, to date, to meet someone specific to get their needs met.

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RE: Conscious Choice That Promotes Slavery - 12/5/2006 7:27:18 AM   
MasterFireMaam


Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline 		To me, this is about being true to who you are...as my gurus say, "Being Real." And, it really doesn't have anything to do with Ms and everything to do with what makes you happy. There's two possibilities why others didn't choose to stay with you. 1) They thought about it and found that other paths were truly the path to their happiness. 2) They denied what makes them happy and chose to stay hidden, mostly from themselves.

I watched a movie (for the second time) this weekend. It's a fun movie...Kamikaze Girls. But, even in it's humor is makes a good statement: "Humans are cowards in the face of happiness." Marianne Williamson said the same thing in "Return to Happiness": "Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure." Another way I've heard it said, "We stay in Hell because we know all the street names." All this is about the two reasons above. We hope, for their sakes, that it's reason #1 that they're not with you...and that reason doesn't really have anything to do with YOU specifically. But, I find that often, it's about reason #2.

One of those gurus is fond of reading an exerpt from the Velveteen Rabbit. I like the last bit of what he reads the best: "...once you are Real you can't be ugly, except to people who don't understand." In the end, we only hope, because we care about the people in our lives, that each has found their path to being Real...and they are afforded the opportunity to do so without persecution.

Master Fire


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RE: Conscious Choice That Promotes Slavery - 12/5/2006 7:42:18 AM   
darksdesire


Posts: 326
Joined: 10/18/2006
Status: offline 		i agree with LA and MasterFireMaam.  i've lived a very cowardly life until the past few years, fighting and denying myself in hundreds of ways. For me, the decision to follow my own way occured in a single moment.  The decision, not the inclination or desire.  Always a pleaser, always looking to the outside world to define myself, and as a result, feeling a strong disconnection from the self. 

Being who you are takes courage, especially when who you are goes against the grain of larger society.  In that case, when your choices are condemned and judged, and you consciously make that choice in the face of that judgement, there needs to be a significant strength and groundedness.  Your slave is clearly making two conscious choices:  the first is being true to who he is, and the second is to be true to who he is....with you.  In my opinion, that makes him a superb slave!!!!

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RE: Conscious Choice That Promotes Slavery - 12/5/2006 7:52:38 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo
The others who were my "slaves" made other choices and thus they aren't here. In my opinion they chose easier routes in life than to stick out the often difficult master-slave relationship in our modern world.


I had to come back to this because folks are talking about being true to themselves. The fact that Fox is there and these slaves are not doesn't make them any less true to themselves. It doesn't mean they didn't make conscious choices that were right for them. Because they chose to follow another path only indicates that for whatever reason the path they were on with you was simply not the right one for them. It doesn't mean they took the easier way...it simply means they took the way that seemed right for them.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

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RE: Conscious Choice That Promotes Slavery - 12/5/2006 8:17:40 AM   
mstrjx


Posts: 2045
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo
The others who were my "slaves" made other choices and thus they aren't here. In my opinion they chose easier routes in life than to stick out the often difficult master-slave relationship in our modern world.


I had to come back to this because folks are talking about being true to themselves. The fact that Fox is there and these slaves are not doesn't make them any less true to themselves. It doesn't mean they didn't make conscious choices that were right for them. Because they chose to follow another path only indicates that for whatever reason the path they were on with you was simply not the right one for them. It doesn't mean they took the easier way...it simply means they took the way that seemed right for them.


The portion that I wanted to repond to was in this section as well, so this seems like a pretty good jumping-in point.

I think the key here is not so much M/s, D/s or vanilla, but simply 'relationships'.

I think once you have whatever priorities you choose to hold sacred straight, then that is the path you take.  Recently the news came out that married people are now considered a minority.  Certainly there are committed relationships out there that do not involve marriage, so it might not be adequate to say that single, alone, people are in the majority, but it does say something for how we consider relationships.

Temporary.

I think at some point in time we all get to a point where 'temporary' isn't good enough any longer.  I know I have.  (I'm not also a strong advocate for marriage; that's not where this is headed.)  So the decisions I face are to 'find a relationship I will stick to REGARDLESS (and an M/s relationship probably qualifies better than any)' -OR- 'stop finding value in relationships of any sort and just do the 'alone' thing'.

The people in your past found greater value in 'whatever' than the relationship they held with you.  Not a good thing, not a bad thing, just their thing.  You didn't (and probably shouldn't) compel them to stay with you; they were allowed their choice and they took it.

Time will tell whether Fox will ultimately stay (and if he does it will probably be more for the relationship than anything - you've already given adequate reasons for him to take a more selfish stance) or not.

Jeff

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Know thyself. It's the best gift you can ever give yourself.

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RE: Conscious Choice That Promotes Slavery - 12/5/2006 9:02:03 AM   
daddysprop247


Posts: 1712
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: DC Metro area
Status: offline 		Here is my conclusion: Consensual slavery today is possible because of the conscious choices we make that promote greater probablity for success.
 
interesting theory. and i agree to an extent...i do not think that our mutual, thoughtful, conscious choices are the ONLY things that make consensual slavery possible. however they certainly play a huge part, for some more than others.

tammyjo mentioned other slaves no longer being there because of job, family, etc. and fox being there because he has made a conscious choice to place the relationship before those things. well, imo, if one even has the right/power to choose job, family, etc., over their Owner, they were never a "slave" in the first place. it's not about conscious choice there, it's about the actual control and power of the Owner. it's not like a vanilla relationship where one begs the other, "please don't take that job in tuscon honey, it's too far, it'll be the end of us". an Owner has the perogative to say "you will not take that job", and take means to make that happen, whether the slave likes it or not.

THAT to me is the other crucial element (besides conscious choices by the slave) to successful consensual slavery unions...the will and power of the Owner. if that doesn't exist, regardless of how many unselfish, Owner-focused choices are made by the slave, a true Owner/slave union cannot really be. there needs to be that safety net firmly in place, in case there ever comes a day when the slave does make such wonderful unselfish choices.

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RE: Conscious Choice That Promotes Slavery - 12/5/2006 10:09:22 AM   
happypervert


Posts: 2203
Joined: 5/11/2004
From: Scranton, PA
Status: offline
quote:

I think that one of the biggest factos in success is that both parties make a conscious and consistant decision/choice to continue to pursue the dynamic in the face of so many other choices.

Sure, but I think what is driving those choices is the underlying compatibility with the other person so when it comes down to asking "Do I stay or do I go do something else", the value of the relationship is greater than the perceived alternative.

So I don't think it is the choices in the master/slave relationship that are important here -- it is finding a satisfying personal relationship on every other dimension that makes the master/slave relationship work and worth sustaining. That is the hard part, and the choices naturally follow from that.


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RE: Conscious Choice That Promotes Slavery - 12/5/2006 10:17:34 AM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247

Here is my conclusion: Consensual slavery today is possible because of the conscious choices we make that promote greater probablity for success.

interesting theory. and i agree to an extent...i do not think that our mutual, thoughtful, conscious choices are the ONLY things that make consensual slavery possible. however they certainly play a huge part, for some more than others.

tammyjo mentioned other slaves no longer being there because of job, family, etc. and fox being there because he has made a conscious choice to place the relationship before those things. well, imo, if one even has the right/power to choose job, family, etc., over their Owner, they were never a "slave" in the first place. it's not about conscious choice there, it's about the actual control and power of the Owner. it's not like a vanilla relationship where one begs the other, "please don't take that job in tuscon honey, it's too far, it'll be the end of us". an Owner has the perogative to say "you will not take that job", and take means to make that happen, whether the slave likes it or not.

THAT to me is the other crucial element (besides conscious choices by the slave) to successful consensual slavery unions...the will and power of the Owner. if that doesn't exist, regardless of how many unselfish, Owner-focused choices are made by the slave, a true Owner/slave union cannot really be. there needs to be that safety net firmly in place, in case there ever comes a day when the slave does make such wonderful unselfish choices.


I was just reading through all the replies here and I wanted say "thanks" to everyone. Sometimes it really helps me to share what I'm thinking because I get new ideas by listening to/reading other opinions.

I did want to say that for me I do not feel I could force someone to stay with me because of my personal moral code. Even considering that feels both icky to me and potentially dangerous. "Icky" for personal reasons and "dangerous" because I do not currently live in a society where I do not have any right at all to force my slave to stay with me -- I think here the legal and social risks outweight any fantasy I might have of forcing a slave to stay with me.

Could I convince one or "force" one? Sure then it becomes a matter of what I value.

As others have said, when my past slaves told me they were looking for another job or whatever, I asked questions and made my wishes known but the fact that they would go that far along another path strongly suggested to me that the current situation was not the best for them. From a completely self-centered view point, being served by someone who isn't fulfilled and isn't on the correct path, wouldn't feel as good (in my opinion) as being with someone who is fulfilled and is on the correct path. One may fake a smile and go through the motions but I don't feel that is the same as the attitude of service I want from a slave.

Oh, and I wanted to apologize to anyone I may have offended by saying not chosing to be a slave is an "easy" choice or an "easy" path -- at the time in our discussion and in my life experience it feels that way often. Probably goes along with my once or twice a year minute long thoughts of "if I could only just be vanilla it would be so much easier".

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

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RE: Conscious Choice That Promotes Slavery - 12/9/2006 4:50:09 AM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

Just my thoughts. What are your thoughts?


Conscious choice such as you describe isn't necessary, there are those who sort of "fall into it" without much deliberation for various reasons.  But I do believe that in all endeavors in life, not just this lifestyle, the kind of conscious and deliberate choice you describe absolutely does increase the chance of success.  Its something I look for in other, something I respect in them.  It is also something I've had to do in many things in my own life.

Nothing in life is truly free, and that seems to be especially true of those things most worth having.  I have found that in everything that I choose, everything I want, whether that be business or personal relationships, there is both choice and cost involved.  Often having one thing means giving up another.  We all have faced that and had to choose about something in our lives.  I have observed that some habitually avoid facing that choice, and as a result sort of drift into things without having made the same kind of conscious choice that I would have.  Some of that I think comes from a some individuals not wanting to take risk or accept responsibility for their choices... that is, if they didn't really choose it, they think they can claim it wasn't their fault if it didn't work out.  But it is those who do make that conscious choice, especially about submission and slavery, that I respect the most, and something I look for when considering the potential for such.  I believe those are the ones on whom I can most rely, because they have consciously made that choice, made that commitment, taken that responsibility for it.

As others have said, choosing a different path doesn't mean someone wasn't being as "real" or being true to themselves.  Its just evidence that their priorities lay elsewhere, and for them that may have been the best choice.  People don't always think of what is best for us when they decide, nor should they, especially if that conflicts with what is best for themselves.  For some, being a slave, or placing this lifestyle or a particular relationship in this lifestyle might not be their first priority right now, and that could be for a great many different kinds of reasons.  So long as they had reasons for their choices, then I don't see it as being any less valid or "real" than any other choice.

As for myself, I've found this past year that in my own life I've had to make choices which have put this lifestyle or seeking a relationship at a low priority.  Its not that I don't want those things, I very much do.  But I have made a choice, a very conscious one, that other things need to come first for now and that until I meet certain personal goals, pursuing this lifestyle more fully is not a luxury I can allow myself.  That is in part because I believe some of those other goals will, once achieved, allow me to be a better master, and help provide a better environment in which a relationship could exist and grow.  It gets frustrating sometimes, I see some I would like to have and watch them go to others, but I've made a my choice and I'll stick to it.  I have friend who seems to have a very easy time finding new slaves and sometimes I envy him that a bit.  But then again, I think he is on his third relationship now (the previous two having not worked out) so perhaps my high standards have served me better than I give them credit.

Like TammyJo, there are days I think would be easier to be someone else... someone other than me.  Not to have such high standards, not to demand so much of myself, not have such goals, not to reach for so much.  But then the comes that email or letter or a call from a friend who wishes they were me because my life seems so much better than theirs and I realize there is no easy path for any of us.  Besides which, if I weren't me, who else would I be?  Not to mention it be weird wearing someone elses underwear... I've gotten comfortable with mine, to use a metaphor.

Ah well, enough musing, back to gift wrapping!

< Message edited by Padriag -- 12/9/2006 5:12:33 AM >

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A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

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RE: Conscious Choice That Promotes Slavery - 12/9/2006 6:30:30 AM   
FemmeOwner


Posts: 120
Joined: 11/26/2006
Status: offline 		BRAVO!  Excellent post, tammyjo, very thoughtful.

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RE: Conscious Choice That Promotes Slavery - 12/9/2006 6:36:00 AM   
FemmeOwner


Posts: 120
Joined: 11/26/2006
Status: offline 		I'm involved in Landmark (that's how I came to be here on collarme... long story), and these two statements made me remember a recent seminar class that taught us that "life occurs as a series of threats" and that to have integrity (by which they mean, by their definition, to be true to one's self) is to be courageous, and to go after what we want in the face of those threats.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam

To me, this is about being true to who you are...as my gurus say, "Being Real."
<snip>
I watched a movie (for the second time) this weekend. It's a fun movie...Kamikaze Girls. But, even in it's humor is makes a good statement: "Humans are cowards in the face of happiness."

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RE: Conscious Choice That Promotes Slavery - 12/9/2006 6:42:59 AM   
FemmeOwner


Posts: 120
Joined: 11/26/2006
Status: offline 		Initially, yes, people can "fall into it" initially... I did, 13 years ago.  But at some point, one must make a conscious choice, one way or another.  One may fall into a slave's position, but at some point, that slave makes a conscious choice to stay... or to leave.   That this is what they want, or that it is not.  If someone were to NOT deliberate, and think, and choose, after having unwittingly walked into this lifestyle...what kind of person is that?  Not a slave, I think, but something else.  Dysfunctional comes to mind. 

Personally, I want someone who consciously, knowingly, deliberately, chooses ME over all the other options in the world that are open to him/her. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag
Conscious choice such as you describe isn't necessary, there are those who sort of "fall into it" without much deliberation for various reasons. 

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RE: Conscious Choice That Promotes Slavery - 12/9/2006 7:22:14 AM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FemmeOwner

Initially, yes, people can "fall into it" initially... I did, 13 years ago.  But at some point, one must make a conscious choice, one way or another. 

Are you sure?  You seem less so later in your post.

quote:

If someone were to NOT deliberate, and think, and choose, after having unwittingly walked into this lifestyle...what kind of person is that?  Not a slave, I think, but something else.  Dysfunctional comes to mind.

Indeed, so it is possible that some do not make that deliberate choice (especially in the context of TammyJo's post).  Thus you make my point, and also explain my own preference in the matter.

You meet all kinds in this world.  Not all of them good.


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Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

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RE: Conscious Choice That Promotes Slavery - 12/9/2006 7:51:08 AM   
FemmeOwner


Posts: 120
Joined: 11/26/2006
Status: offline 		I wasn't really speaking in the context of TammyJo's post, and certainly did not mean that any slave who stayed, did not make a conscious choice to do so, or that a slave who did not stay, made the wrong choice.  I "fell into," if you will, this lifestyle as a submissive.  Then I discovered within myself that I was dominant.  I made a conscious choice to follow those inner promptings.  I made a conscious decision to be in this lifestyle and not a vanilla one.  After many years, I made a conscious decision to seek a slave.

I was merely trying to point out, that one may FALL into this BD/SM/Ds/Ms lifestyle... but to STAY is a conscious decision.  Yes, I mentioned another option in my earlier post, someone falling into this lifestyle and staying without a choice, but it seems rather far-fetched, and I honestly can't see how that can happen. At some point, one MUST choose, if for no other reason than that we must all interact constantly with the "real" or vanilla world, the world that we live in.  How can anyone LIVE in this lifestyle, without having actively chosen to do so?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

quote:

ORIGINAL: FemmeOwner

Initially, yes, people can "fall into it" initially... I did, 13 years ago.  But at some point, one must make a conscious choice, one way or another. 

Are you sure?  You seem less so later in your post.

quote:

If someone were to NOT deliberate, and think, and choose, after having unwittingly walked into this lifestyle...what kind of person is that?  Not a slave, I think, but something else.  Dysfunctional comes to mind.

Indeed, so it is possible that some do not make that deliberate choice (especially in the context of TammyJo's post).  Thus you make my point, and also explain my own preference in the matter.

You meet all kinds in this world.  Not all of them good.


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RE: Conscious Choice That Promotes Slavery - 12/9/2006 9:13:41 AM   
MistressYlwa


Posts: 263
Joined: 8/25/2005
Status: offline 		I think everyone has made valid points.
 
As for your response to Fox, that one is easy. Slavery has different aspects to different people. But as for the slave you want, he is the slave for you.

_____________________________

Mistress Ylwa

You see what power is - holding someone elses fear in your hand and showing it to them! - Amy Tan

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