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Tax Evaders: Multinationals are Selling the Country Short - 12/6/2006 3:49:11 PM   
Chaingang


Posts: 1727
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Status: offline 		"Tax Evaders: Multinationals are Selling the Country Short"
http://www.alternet.org/story/45019/

The biggest tax scam on earth has a very innocent sounding name. It is called "transfer prices." That almost sounds boring. It is, however, anything but boring. Abuse of transfer prices is a key tool multinational corporations use to fool the U.S. and other jurisdictions to think that they have virtually no profit; hence, they shouldn't pay any taxes.

Corporations involved in this scam are "model corporate citizens," or so they would like us to believe. The truth is that they rob us all blind. The money we lose can be estimated in the tens of billions, or possibly hundreds of billions of dollars every year. We all end up paying higher taxes because rich corporations make sure they don't.

---

Corporations used to pay most of the taxes in this country for the benefit of making money as corporations. There are real reasons why that arrangement makes the most sense. Now, these multinationals want the perks with none of the downside while we foot the bill. And for a long time we have been supporting this fantasy for the uber-rich.

It's time for some change.

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RE: Tax Evaders: Multinationals are Selling the Country... - 12/6/2006 4:15:38 PM   
NeedToUseYou


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From: None of your business
Status: offline 		I'm trying to figure out how to move my business to Puerto Rico.

It's wrong the way the code is set up, but I doubt it's going to change anytime soon. So, being on mainland US costs 3 times as much in taxes as setting up in Puerto Rico. It's bullshit, obviously the government doesn't want corporations doing business in the US, or else they'd charge a reasonable tax rate.

It's that simple. If the corporate tax rate in the US was reasonable, you'd see many many corporations move back to the US. But since that is not the case, businesses will try to divert profits to areas with reasonable tax burdens. They'll do this by either actually moving the business to the other country, or B make it look like the profits were derived in another country.

It sucks but that is what happens when you charge more to do business here than elsewhere. And people are people and will always try to skirt taxes if it has any type of legal leg to stand on.



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RE: Tax Evaders: Multinationals are Selling the Country... - 12/6/2006 5:00:55 PM   
Chaingang


Posts: 1727
Joined: 10/24/2005
Status: offline 		I understand why the loopholes are there, I also believe that they are wrong for the nation. So while I understand your viewpoint my reply is simply: tariffs. If you want to earn/make U.S. dollars you should play more by U.S. rules or be denied doing business here.

Of course, the looting will simply continue. Same old, same old...

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RE: Tax Evaders: Multinationals are Selling the Country... - 12/6/2006 6:11:40 PM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I would say perhaps there may come some tax justice in this country now we have a new congress, but as soon as corporate america figured out that the winds of change were upon the political landscape they began buying democrats... so this is not likely to change unfortunately.

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RE: Tax Evaders: Multinationals are Selling the Country... - 12/6/2006 8:49:32 PM   
Archer


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Status: offline 		Corporations never pay any taxes all of them come out of some individuals' pockets.
Simply because if they were not taxed at the corporate level they would be in somone's pocket being taxed as dividend income.
The idea that Corporate taxes are not comming out of individual's pockets is all too often glossed over.
The Corporate taxes are paid when they are paid by a decreased return to the individual investors.

Funny that the US is one of the few countries that taxes a corporation for money they make completely outside the US.
Under current code If a US company has a facoty in Mexico that makes washing machines and every single washing machine from that factory never crosses the US border, all sold in Central and South America, the US still taxes the income from those sales. And that is after they pay their corporate taxes in MExico and the countries they sold them in.

Woder why they move headquarters overseas, this is part of the reason.

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RE: Tax Evaders: Multinationals are Selling the Country... - 12/6/2006 8:56:08 PM   
DrgnLdyCatherine


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Status: offline 		Democrats, Republicans... it matters not.  They are both the same in the grand scheme of things- puppets of some higher power.  I have a very good friend who says quite often, and it's so true... "Follow the Money".

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RE: Tax Evaders: Multinationals are Selling the Country... - 12/6/2006 8:57:18 PM   
Archer


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Status: offline 		Always wonder how people would react to the Corporate tax issue if they were significant stock holders in the companies
How many would vote for a board of directors that would pay the rate without any tax aviodance manuevers and be willing to accept the reduced return on investments or if they would talk corporate good citizenship and vote in a board that gets them a higher return.

In other words if it was your ox getting gored.........

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RE: Tax Evaders: Multinationals are Selling the Country... - 12/7/2006 1:41:37 AM   
Chaingang


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Status: offline 		Corporations are a social evil that will have to be dealt with sooner rather than later. Of course, most people don't realize that fact.

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RE: Tax Evaders: Multinationals are Selling the Country... - 12/7/2006 3:55:28 AM   
LTRsubNW


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Status: offline 		These tax laws were established to allow places like Puerto Rico (a very very poor place) the opportunity to have multinationals (and from throughout the world, not just American firms) come in, create jobs, etc.  It's vastly cheaper to have private business create jobs than to have a tax rate in that country that is prohibitive, plunging even more of its citizens into poverty.

And yes, some will abuse that opportunity.  Apparently many have.

It's intriguing that the very same government (ours) who sells itself $18,000 hammers and $6,000 toilet seats (using the spread between the real cost and the invoiced cost by companies such as Boeing and the like for their "Black ops" programs), is upset when a legitimate company uses laws for similar purposes, albeit not often for such dark opportunities.

Interestingly the article uses Microsoft as an example of a company that has used this entirely legal precedent to avoid (not evade) taxes.  The very same company that the US Govt. (the taxing entity) did everything they could to destroy. 

Hmmmm....and this company (Microsoft) decided after much ado, that they wanted to protect their assets from this entity, in an entirely legal way?  How incredible that a company that was very likely singularly responsible for a significant portion of the greatest economic boom in United States history via technology transfer, increasing productivity in the mid and late 90's on a scale only seen once before in recent history (that being the intercontinental rail system which opened up enormous tracts of land and concurrent productivity), would want to keep as much of their money out of the hands of the very entity that so diligently and feverishly worked to crush them.

(Go figure).

< Message edited by LTRsubNW -- 12/7/2006 4:02:59 AM >

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RE: Tax Evaders: Multinationals are Selling the Country... - 12/7/2006 6:01:16 AM   
yourMissTress


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From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline 		Chaingang, excellent topic.

click here to see that it's not all about the taxes.

Multinationals sound like good business for the corporations, but the latent consequences outweigh the benefits.

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RE: Tax Evaders: Multinationals are Selling the Country... - 12/7/2006 6:06:42 AM   
Archer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaingang

Corporations are a social evil that will have to be dealt with sooner rather than later. Of course, most people don't realize that fact.


LOL te whole Corporate = evil argument fails to impress me in the least.
Trying to gather enough capital to gain a significant economy of scale without the concept of incorporation is impossible.
You can't attract  group of small investors if they each have total financial liability for anything the factory does.

"I have one share of  Mobile and you're gonna take all my assets because they fucked up the gulf coast?"
Without the concept of some level of corporate shield investent grinds to a halt and the economic gap widens.


< Message edited by Archer -- 12/7/2006 6:07:09 AM >

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RE: Tax Evaders: Multinationals are Selling the Country... - 12/7/2006 6:49:09 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		Corporations are amoral and act like psychopathic individuals (regardless of the morals of the people that work for them), they always have been, since before British companies carved out an empire. Whatever a government allows they will exploit, if that's slavery so be it, if that is destroying natural habitat so be it, if that is driving tribes people from their land so be it. Nothing shall get in the way of commerce, commerce is holy. Western society has made a Faustian pact with the devil and as long as we can have the latest electronic trinket we don't care.

Anyway, it will all grind to a halt and all of us with it within a century but maybe corporations will come up with the technology to save the world from global warming but what is the point if we are all slaves to corporate greed and don't care what is done in our names?

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RE: Tax Evaders: Multinationals are Selling the Country... - 12/7/2006 7:22:12 AM   
Sinergy


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Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LTRsubNW

The very same company that the US Govt. (the taxing entity) did everything they could to destroy. 



Hello A/all,

I had a comment about this statement.  The United States Government did nothing to Microsoft until Microsoft, after doing their best to prevent Apple computers from developing and implementing internet protocols to own a small piece of the web pie, went after one the computer manufacturer that specifically designed high performance internet servers and was becoming the de facto platform for the Internet, i.e. Sun.

Rather than go after the Evil Behemoth That Is Microsoft in court to protect their right to remain in business, Sun computers simply got the anti-trust branch of the Government to investigate Microsoft and determined that their business model violated anti-trust laws.

Had Microsoft not entered into a business model specifically designed to destroy other companies and establish a monopoly, the United States Government would never have engaged in litigation to prevent Microsoft from doing so.

Sinergy

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RE: Tax Evaders: Multinationals are Selling the Country... - 12/7/2006 10:11:10 AM   
NeedToUseYou


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaingang

Corporations are a social evil that will have to be dealt with sooner rather than later. Of course, most people don't realize that fact.


The way corporations are handled by the government  is a social evil, not the idea of a corporation.

It's very easy to say corporations are evil, but what would happen without corporations. Try total global economic collapse and starvation.

There is no way we'd have companies such as Intel, AMD, Cisco, Microsoft, without the concept of the corporation. You wouldn't have Catepillar, making all that land moving equipment, you wouldn't have airline companies, you wouldn't have anything other than small hand made items produced from a workshop, because no one would be able to acquire the necessary capital to build the infrastructure to produce those things. If the "generic" corporation is evil then everything you use, drive in, fly in, consume is evil unless you grew it in your back yard.

So, without corporations you'd have to replace those capital intensive investments with government run, owned and controlled industry. That is replacing a 10000 sociopaths fighting against each other for control with one sociopath that now only has to focus on controlling the populace. Evil, LOL, better to keep evil divided and fighting among itself than consolidate that "Evil" under exclusive control of one.

Isn't that what everyone is worried about anyway corporations getting to much control. Well, what's the difference between a corporation and a government with complete control. It's nothing more than a stroke of the pen to change the law, and you'd be in a  much worse situation than the current situation where power is divided among 1000's instead of one. That is scary and trully evil in my opinion.


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RE: Tax Evaders: Multinationals are Selling the Country... - 12/7/2006 12:40:21 PM   
Chaingang


Posts: 1727
Joined: 10/24/2005
Status: offline 		I'll just quote myself from some old threads:

---

"The Corporation"
3 Hrs.

THE CORPORATION explores the nature and spectacular rise of the dominant institution of our time. Footage from pop culture, advertising, TV news, and corporate propaganda, illuminates the corporation's grip on our lives. Taking its legal status as a "person" to its logical conclusion, the film puts the corporation on the psychiatrist's couch to ask "What kind of person is it?" Provoking, witty, sweepingly informative, The Corporation includes forty interviews with corporate insiders and critics - including Milton Friedman, Noam Chomsky, Naomi Klein, and Michael Moore - plus true confessions, case studies and strategies for change.

http://informationclearinghouse.info/article12998.htm

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"I hope that we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country." -Thomas Jefferson, 1816.

---

Corporations have to be kept within the borders of individual countries because otherwise they are potentially supranational and bigger than some countries - look at Walmart and consider the Jefferson quote from earlier: "I hope that we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country." In that "trial of strength" the corporations must lose, otherwise there shall be no real ability to regulate them. It's too easy to hide assets, not pay taxes, etc. by keeping it all offshore. You cannot regulate what is beyond your reach.

I don't disagree that it's an undesirable solution because I too have certain capitalist leanings. But it's probably the best and only solution to the problem under discussion.

Consider too that part of the problem of things like offshoring is that the corporation does not have a national interest only a profit motive. So these corporate entities that wield so much power within our borders don't ultimately care about the strength of the nations they reside within - they can simply move elsewhere if need be. A nation's interest and that of the corporation must be the same if corporations are to be made to serve a public good as they used to.

---

Excellent link here:

"How Corporations Became 'Persons'"
http://www.uuworld.org/2003/03/feature1a.html

other content here:
http://www.uuworld.org/2003/03/contents.html

---

What people have to understand is the very direct manner which corporations unhampered will lead to plutocratic tyranny. This kind of consolidation of power and money is the death of our democratic republic. And while we don't have to make corporations illegal, we do have to curtail their power severly.

Needstouseyou: The difference is one is a tyranny and the other is a democratic process. Did that really have to be explained to you?

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RE: Tax Evaders: Multinationals are Selling the Country... - 12/7/2006 2:06:00 PM   
Arpig


Posts: 9930
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From: Increasingly further from reality
Status: offline 		GASP!!!!!!

Say it ain't so...and that the easter bunny is real as well....

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RE: Tax Evaders: Multinationals are Selling the Country... - 12/7/2006 2:20:04 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		That's something that gets missed though is that contries compete for corporate citizens. They compete for the jobs they provide the taxes they generate etc. Are there abuses sure, but lumping perfectly legal avoidance, in with illegal evassions, does nothing but drive them further away along with the benifits they provide to the economy.

Simplified tax codes stripped of the thousands of pages of stuff even the IRS doesnt agree on the meaning of would go a long way.


And anything Micheal (Mocumentary) Moore is for I end up having to go against just on principle.

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RE: Tax Evaders: Multinationals are Selling the Country... - 12/7/2006 2:25:26 PM   
Arpig


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quote:

And anything Micheal (Mocumentary) Moore is for I end up having to go against just on principle.


I know what you mean...and doesn't it piss you off sometimes, because he isn't always altogether wrong...just wrong altogether

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RE: Tax Evaders: Multinationals are Selling the Country... - 12/7/2006 2:33:54 PM   
NeedToUseYou


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Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
Status: offline 		LOL, they both tend promote tyranny in my opinion. And I tend to believe that the more power placed in anyones hands be it corporations or government leads to tyranny. Not all form of governments are democracies and democracies or republics aren't guaranteed to remain so, I shouldn't have to point that out either.

Well, from the above it sounds like you are just against multi-nationals and want to restrict them to one country only. Your previous post was just corporations are evil. I agree their needs to be some changes in the law, I have no problem changing the system. My problem lies when people deny the fact that we rely on corporations and I would go so far to say the world would be much worse without them. It simply isn't feasible to produce what is required without them. Or yeah, you could hand everything over to the government and pray they don't abuse their absolute control. My view apparently is closer to yours actually, you change the rules regulating corporations. That is really all that is required.

But the problem is it will never happen. Why? Because the majority of americans are invested in the stock market now and benefit from the current system, only those that aren't invested in the system lose. And those most invested in the system are the most powerful and influential of this country. Additionally, generally those least likely to benefit from multi-nationals are the poorest and least educated on the subject. So, why would it change? It won't in my opinion, right and wrong are irrelevant in this regard.  

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