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RE: Degradation what's it like, what after care? - 12/9/2006 12:07:04 PM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		Oh thank you. Glad to hear you think so (judgmentalism is one of my "pet peeves". Really). But I still think there are circumstances where "judging something" is okay (we've got brains so we can use them ,after all). I just think in a lot of cases "live and let live" makes sense (and takes a hell of a lot less energy than arguing with someone until the "cows come home" so to speak, hehe), about why their "morals" need to change - if it really is a "victimless crime" (which I think it could be, or not, in the case of Degradation, depending on not only the definition one is using, but also one's intent, the circumstances, etc. Not that what's anyone was doing on this thread (arguing they weren't, really). I just have read so many threads lately where people seem to be fighting (I think I will go take a nap).

It is a great topic, though, and I am not trying to put a damper on it. I hope I don't. I really am interested in it from an intellectual standpoint, too - as I am interested a lot in things I don't know that much about yet (and there are quite a few). But my yammerering might have done that. I was just thinking out loud, really. I don't think anyone can really feel free to say what they think it is if it's "off-beat" if they think a million other people will jump down their throat because of it. Hope people continue to write in, because it's a fascinating topic.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 12/9/2006 12:20:17 PM >

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RE: Degradation what's it like, what after care? - 12/9/2006 2:48:23 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

Oh thank you. Glad to hear you think so (judgmentalism is one of my "pet peeves". Really). But I still think there are circumstances where "judging something" is okay (we've got brains so we can use them ,after all). I just think in a lot of cases "live and let live" makes sense (and takes a hell of a lot less energy than arguing with someone until the "cows come home" so to speak, hehe), about why their "morals" need to change - if it really is a "victimless crime" (which I think it could be, or not, in the case of Degradation, depending on not only the definition one is using, but also one's intent, the circumstances, etc. Not that what's anyone was doing on this thread (arguing they weren't, really). I just have read so many threads lately where people seem to be fighting (I think I will go take a nap).

It is a great topic, though, and I am not trying to put a damper on it. I hope I don't. I really am interested in it from an intellectual standpoint, too - as I am interested a lot in things I don't know that much about yet (and there are quite a few). But my yammerering might have done that. I was just thinking out loud, really. I don't think anyone can really feel free to say what they think it is if it's "off-beat" if they think a million other people will jump down their throat because of it. Hope people continue to write in, because it's a fascinating topic.

- Susan


Susan, to me leading a sub or slave around on a leash would be humiliation.
Having that sub or slave get on their hands and knees and drink water from a bowl like a dog would be degrading.
I just wouldn't "get" anything out of doing that.
Like you, if someone else derived pleasure from that activity good for them but I wouldn't be interested in it.
I'm more focused on the "pleasure" aspects that B&D M/s give people in a "sexual" way.
Some people may think I'm "against" crossdressers and transvestites but I think of those activities in the same way as I would about degradation, I have no interest in that activity.

(in reply to SusanofO)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Degradation what's it like, what after care? - 12/9/2006 3:10:59 PM   
HollyS


Posts: 230
Joined: 1/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

Thanks. To me I think maybe it really is one of those terminology things where some differentiate between the two, and some don't (which helps Humiliation along in getting its undeservedly (I think) bad rap to some folks. At least I think so). To me, it's all an individual preference, of course.


I agree with you here, because the terms are subjective ones.  I got these from multiple online dictionaries:

humiliation
noun
A lowering in or deprivation of character or self-esteem: abasement, debasement, degradation, mortification.

humiliate
verb
To deprive of esteem, self-worth, or effectiveness: abase, degrade, demean 2, humble, mortify.
Idioms: bring low, take down a peg. See respect, win
Many people here have put forth different definitions of "degrading" or "humbling" and many have equated humilation with embarassment.  Much like the arguments over the terms "slave" and "submissive" it seems this one might be purely subjective as well.

Bring on the word police, who feel that without strict universally agreed-upon definitions the world will fall apart.

quote:

I didn't used to feel that way, but I sometimes get tired of listening to people who, for instance, partake heavily in activity X (which some would consider "off-beat") who then turn around and are "confused" as to why anyone would even consider participating in activity Y.

There are instances, of course, where people are just concerned for someone else's welfare (and that's heroic, and nice. Holly S comes to mind here - she is a professional therapist I think, (or studying to be one) and just concerned for people' welfare, and justifiably wants to make sure people understand this may be an activity area where one knows what one is doing before "diving in", so to speak).


*grins*

Thanks for the nod Susan - I am a therapist but am also currently on the doctorate path, so you were right on both counts.  That being said, I try really hard to speak from what I know directly rather than as simply a cautionary voice.  I never want to come off as the play killjoy or board mom -- people need to find out for themselves what gets their groove on and what leaves them cold and rarely listen to such warnings anyway.

In talking about humilation/degradation play, I speak purely from my own experience. Like everyone else I've got baggage about certain things, which affects how I think. I know how h/d feels for me and I put my thoughts on it out here on the same footing as anyone else.  I also try to be really clear about where the lines are (so my defs regarding degradation vs. embarassment vs. objectification), not to be the CM dictionary but rather so people will understand what I'm talking about.  I think we all just want to be heard and understood when we post here.

quote:

But there are, let's face it,  just as many instances where people are just predjudiced against an acitivity they don't "get" (and don't want to). My eternal question continues to be...why the Hell does anyone really care what anyone else wants to do?..


I'm with you here 100%.  Some activities bother me on a personal level (they're just not for me), but there are precious few things I'd say "What is it about X that you like?"   Those are the ones that hit my professional buttons and make me wonder what else is going on, but it's still important to avoid the whole "I'm better than you because I do/don't do X." which is a prevelant attitude in these forums sometimes. 

I'm reminded of the whole online vs. real time threads, where a majority of posts end up being "How could you possibly thing that's real?"  I know it's hard to rein in one's biases and give others the room to express their kink in ways that make them happiest, but we've got to.  Otherwise the boards just become flamefests and no one learns anything.

My $0.02.

~Holly


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RE: Degradation what's it like, what after care? - 12/9/2006 5:38:56 PM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		popeye: I appreciate your example. Personally, I don't like punching and kicking, But there is someone on this site whose opinion I tend to respect (kyra) who really likes it. Do I conclude she's a "sicko"? No. She just has different taste than I do, and to be honest I've never tried it, so I can't honestly say, it was more or less an initial visceral reaction against it on my part.

If someone wanted to really degrade me, they could ask me to cook and eat Calve's Liver for them. Gag me! Gag me! My husband loved it and I could not only not stnad the smell of it cooking, it actually made me vomit. Anyway...

Holly: Well, I just remmebered reading you were going for your Ph.D. and also always thought you sounded sensible to me.

- Susan    

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 12/9/2006 5:39:57 PM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to HollyS)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Degradation what's it like, what after care? - 12/10/2006 10:29:48 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

popeye: I appreciate your example. Personally, I don't like punching and kicking, But there is someone on this site whose opinion I tend to respect (kyra) who really likes it. Do I conclude she's a "sicko"? No. She just has different taste than I do, and to be honest I've never tried it, so I can't honestly say, it was more or less an initial visceral reaction against it on my part.

If someone wanted to really degrade me, they could ask me to cook and eat Calve's Liver for them. Gag me! Gag me! My husband loved it and I could not only not stnad the smell of it cooking, it actually made me vomit. Anyway...

Holly: Well, I just remmebered reading you were going for your Ph.D. and also always thought you sounded sensible to me.

- Susan    


Susan, LMAO @ "Calve's liver!"
Agree on the "punching and kicking", there may be a small proportion who are into that activity but I imagine that it would be difficult to pair up two people who are (both) interested in that activity.
For me anyway I wouldn't degrade my sub or slave because I'm a little more "protective" than that.
It would definately conflict with my protective instincts.

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RE: Degradation what's it like, what after care? - 12/20/2006 5:49:29 PM   
pinkprincess71


Posts: 4
Joined: 6/22/2005
Status: offline 		' Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Matthew 7:14'
Thanks for that scripture.



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RE: Degradation what's it like, what after care? - 12/21/2006 4:45:14 PM   
shadevarr


Posts: 360
Joined: 7/2/2006
Status: offline 		months ago, my girl had to sing a really sad song and asked me to make her cry and hate herself. I reached into places that I don't like going and verbally assaulted her. Each sniffle from her resulted in a new insult, calling her a worthless daughter and a burden was just the beginning, it escalated to attacks on every aspect of her, even things that I praise her for until there was nothing left that I hadn't commented on except the very core of her being. It was emotional sadism, tearing her apart from the inside until I knew that if I stopped she would want to run a knife across her wrist. After she sang, she thanked me, sat in my lap and I just held her until she got centered again.

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RE: Degradation what's it like, what after care? - 12/21/2006 6:45:36 PM   
darksdesire


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Joined: 10/18/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: shadevarr

months ago, my girl had to sing a really sad song and asked me to make her cry and hate herself. I reached into places that I don't like going and verbally assaulted her. Each sniffle from her resulted in a new insult, calling her a worthless daughter and a burden was just the beginning, it escalated to attacks on every aspect of her, even things that I praise her for until there was nothing left that I hadn't commented on except the very core of her being. It was emotional sadism, tearing her apart from the inside until I knew that if I stopped she would want to run a knife across her wrist. After she sang, she thanked me, sat in my lap and I just held her until she got centered again.


I'm curious as to how others will respond to what you just wrote.  I relate to it, and I realize how horrible and abusive it can sound from the outside looking in.  I need degradation at times; need it intensely, desperately...it frees me from demons like nothing else can.  My Master took it slowly when exploring my tolerance for this, watching and waiting to see how it impacted me, but it has always been a relief...sort of cleansing, like a nice long sauna.  Once he understood that it seems to help me (and arouses me), he has come to enjoy it.  In some ways, this is one of the most intimate experiences we share because it takes extreme openness and trust on my part, and focus and awareness on his part.  The connection I feel with him is always most profound afterward because I know that he has just gone in to the deepest, darkest, softest, tenderest places, of me, and loves them.  This is defiantly my very favorite form of play.  Aftercare in this case usually involves a tender Daddy/daughter dynamic in which he nurtures me in a very little girl way.  

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RE: Degradation what's it like, what after care? - 12/22/2006 6:27:02 PM   
ObjectivistPNW


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Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: whisperedsighs

Interesting input so far.  I am wondering how the head space for degradation is different from humiliation for those of you who do both? 


It's humiliation when the the one being put through their paces is embarassed by performing the act, and perhaps being witnessed doing so.  Degredation is when they suddenly realize that they have come to need the act, and find themselves begging to be taken the next step down.

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RE: Degradation what's it like, what after care? - 12/22/2006 6:47:42 PM   
akbarbarian


Posts: 596
Joined: 12/19/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: whisperedsighs
The following below was posted in another thread on humiliation and I didn't want to hijack the thread. 
quote:

I separate humiliation from degradation in this way...degradation is applying the same tactics as humiliation only at a deeper and crueler level.  For me...and this is for me and whoever I would be with only...I differentiate the two by clarifying that degradation is a bad form of humiliation that does not make the submissive feel sexually hot or mentally stimulated but rather, makes her feel that she is less than she is...it calls up aspects of things that are in no way related to play or submission to controlled domination but rather hurt and controlling domineering; a way of pulling all safe footing out from beneath her.

My question then is, in regards to degradation.....What kind of aftercare do you use to put the footing back under the girl?  How often is in your experience or anyone else's who does this, does this trigger the girl into a bad head space?  For submissives who have experienced it, what is the head space like? 

This kind of thing can go badly, but it certainly makes me hot.  If it goes well you're lucky and it can deepen the closeness, and the D/s.  If it goes badly, you'll probably realize it very quickly.

I don't really distinguish aftercare all that much.  Yes I do try to be close to the one I've humiliated right after the fact, because pain can drive a wedge and I certainly am not out to create a wedge.  But generally to me care is care.  I want the one who is with me to understand that she is all the more precious to me because of the embarrassing thing she just did, not less precious and less wantable as she might impulsively feel.  One benefit to this, is if successful you've re-written what things she instinctively feels shamed/proud of and that's an awesome source of power.  I want her to feel good about herself all the time, the difference is what I want her to feel good about might be radically different from her default.

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RE: Degradation what's it like, what after care? - 12/23/2006 9:56:42 AM   
Devilslilsister


Posts: 1262
Joined: 8/3/2006
Status: offline 		<smilez>  I'd also love some examples of degradation!!  Like what excatly is it?  The definition does me no good.  Nor does everyones ideas on what it is.  What excatly is it?  Who has mutliple examples so i can figure it out?  My Master doesnt talk about these things with me, he just does what he does.   He doesnt say "okay, i'm going to humiliate you now"  nor "later today we are going to involve in some humiliation play" 

The closest things i can think of for humilation are :

i was acting up outside an ice cream shop.  He told me to kneel.  woooooooo.. i think with my jaw dropping, my eyes going wide and my face flushing absolute red was all he need as i didnt have to eventually kneel.  I dont think i could of even done it.  I would of probably died of embaressment if i had.     (that was also in the very early stages) 

Bout a year ago, i was going to beat the crap out of a girl.  Oooh lord.  The girl wandered up at the karoke place and i was sort of "losing my head"  so my Master made me kneel there.  Which was also highly embarressing.  Yet i think the lesson was completely lost on me as i was hyped to go whup ass. 

He knows that showing this part of myself to the "outside" world embarresses me.  Hey, i've a rep to be tough to keep up.  LOL (ahh.. slightly j/k)  So he tells those we know, or new friends he's met - my place (making sure i'm there to hear it).  I usually blush ungodly red.  And everyone always loves hearing it.  They ask him TONS of questions and i sit there mute red faced.  heh.  (it is sort of funny).  Once as he was explaining how i obey and kneel and ect - he snapped his fingers and pointed to the ground (telling me to kneel) in front of a group of people.  Some i knew and some i didnt.  (though i did bounce back quite quickly as one of the guys in the group tried to do the snap thing and ended up looking more like an idiot then i felt)  ha!

He also once had me, in an empty parking lot, late at night, act like a dog.  No one was there but him and i - but stillllllllllllll...... Bark, roll over, beg, ect.  It was all fun and games and he sat there cracking up while i was on the ground feeling stupider then all get out.  After awhile, i did get in to.  Heh.  It waaaaas funny. 

But this would be like sort of humiliation i think.  And i wonder.. what does degradation consist of?

< Message edited by Devilslilsister -- 12/23/2006 9:58:35 AM >

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RE: Degradation what's it like, what after care? - 12/23/2006 11:07:55 AM   
Grlwithboy


Posts: 655
Joined: 2/8/2005
Status: offline 		I'm going to express what I'm sure will be a highly unpopular opinion, but it works for my slave and I.  And it'll cover the "example" of degradation probably rather nicely.

One of the activities my slave, H, and I mutually enjoy is where I have him down on the ground, and I literally kick his ass (toe to buttcheeks, hard) while delivering a barrage of the worst verbal abuse I can muster. Nothing's sacred. He's stupid, he's a worthless spineless creep who LEFT his wife and kids for his own gratification, etc. etc.

If I then go from this kind of scene to hugging and reassurances, H and I both are *more* rather than *less* disturbed by what happens, because it makes everything said seem staged, fake and not real. If I do verbal with him, it's because, well, maybe the Catholics and their original sin thing aren't so crazy, and maybe there's an intrinsic part of all of us that's horrible, ugly, stupid, worthless, egotistical, and evil. Maybe that's a thing we don't talk about. Maybe the fact that each and every one of us has the potential to kill, lie, cheat, and generally screw over our fellow humans for a piece of bread in the proper conditions is not something we take out into polite society.

Good, bad or otherwise, this is kind of what I mean when I say "degradation." Aftercare is that I give him a tissue for his blubbering and stay in the same room for about a half hour to see where he goes.  Then we go get something at the deli - catharsis builds you up a mean appetite.

It's not for everyone by any means, but we like it.

(as for what do I get out of it --wow, what kind of a sicko likes to do what I just did? Degradation pulls you BOTH down into your shit)


< Message edited by Grlwithboy -- 12/23/2006 11:11:47 AM >

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RE: Degradation what's it like, what after care? - 12/23/2006 9:06:16 PM   
akbarbarian


Posts: 596
Joined: 12/19/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Devilslilsister

<smilez>  I'd also love some examples of degradation!!  Like what excatly is it?  The definition does me no good.  Nor does everyones ideas on what it is.  What excatly is it?  Who has mutliple examples so i can figure it out?  My Master doesnt talk about these things with me, he just does what he does.   He doesnt say "okay, i'm going to humiliate you now"  nor "later today we are going to involve in some humiliation play" 

The closest things i can think of for humilation are :

i was acting up outside an ice cream shop.  He told me to kneel.  woooooooo.. i think with my jaw dropping, my eyes going wide and my face flushing absolute red was all he need as i didnt have to eventually kneel.  I dont think i could of even done it.  I would of probably died of embaressment if i had.     (that was also in the very early stages) 

Bout a year ago, i was going to beat the crap out of a girl.  Oooh lord.  The girl wandered up at the karoke place and i was sort of "losing my head"  so my Master made me kneel there.  Which was also highly embarressing.  Yet i think the lesson was completely lost on me as i was hyped to go whup ass. 

He knows that showing this part of myself to the "outside" world embarresses me.  Hey, i've a rep to be tough to keep up.  LOL (ahh.. slightly j/k)  So he tells those we know, or new friends he's met - my place (making sure i'm there to hear it).  I usually blush ungodly red.  And everyone always loves hearing it.  They ask him TONS of questions and i sit there mute red faced.  heh.  (it is sort of funny).  Once as he was explaining how i obey and kneel and ect - he snapped his fingers and pointed to the ground (telling me to kneel) in front of a group of people.  Some i knew and some i didnt.  (though i did bounce back quite quickly as one of the guys in the group tried to do the snap thing and ended up looking more like an idiot then i felt)  ha!

He also once had me, in an empty parking lot, late at night, act like a dog.  No one was there but him and i - but stillllllllllllll...... Bark, roll over, beg, ect.  It was all fun and games and he sat there cracking up while i was on the ground feeling stupider then all get out.  After awhile, i did get in to.  Heh.  It waaaaas funny. 

But this would be like sort of humiliation i think.  And i wonder.. what does degradation consist of?

You're on the right track somewhat I think.  One halloween I had my ex's face painted like a dog, wearing a short mini, and chains+collar+wrist and ankle cuffs.  The chains were of a length that standing was physically impossible, they were only long enough to allow crawling or kneeling.  I had her parade with me as part of the costume contest, with me leading her on all fours.  Now that was halloween, true, but the costume and the restraint and the being in public was pretty extreme.

Being used as a human toilet can be degrading as well, as it is a form of objectification hence lowering you from the grade of human to that of item you piss/shit into.  I like it because it's degrading, but also because it's handy sometimes  

_____________________________

Out and proud as a dominant male
United we stand!
Also:Not a service top!
Heretic of Gor

(in reply to Devilslilsister)
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